Israel in the Gaza Strip

[The Muffin Man]

Israel has proved time and time again that everyone in Gaza is fair game, including children. This crap about children as human shields is simply that - crap. Hamas would at the very least know by now that this tactic simply does not work in the face of an army willing to kill just about anyone. There is no logic in this.

Just the same as there is no logic in the IDF firing randomly and without reason or cause into what would otherwise be civilian targets, but some choose to ignore this.

Both sides have been killing each other for ages. No one side has any kind of moral high ground and to argue otherwise is moronic, and partly the reason why the conflict continues to this day.

 

[rowie]

You are wrong Rowie (again imo)
You really shouldn't mention logic, because it is totally illogical to fire rockets at a superpower and not expect retaliation.

It is to me totally illogical to put your own citizens and infrastructure at risk by your own actions

To me that is not the path of an evolved society


Evolution is a fairly complex subject and open to many interpretations but the kill or be killed idea is really simplistic slant on species survival

Example, if the cheetah species was to develop a trait where as every time it saw a lion they would attack as opposed to hide or flight what would be the long term outlook for the cheetah species, Rowie?

Palestine was not occupied (though it is now)
The pockets of "resistance" that you mention is the governing body of the Palestine people, hardly a pocket.


I am not saying that Israel is right, I am saying that Hamas is Wrong....
Very Wrong

Well, it is my opinion that doing absolutely nothing in the face of aggression and brutality is a bigger threat to your existence than taking action. Being absolutely passive and accepting ones fate would lead to israels ultimate objective of leaving palestinians destitute and utterly stateless, to languish in refugee camps near the borders of egypt, jordan etc. These countries do not even want this burden to start with. So the palestinian fight is one very much of survival, not as you say, a suicidal fight. They have lived through countless assaults on theyre population, even during supposed cease fires palestinians are killed on a daily basis. Embargos applied, infrastructure destroyed not because of theyre resistance but simply because they exist! So to go back to your cheetah example, if the lions only interest was in your total ejection from the wherever they roam to say a zoo, do you not think that it is in the best interest of the cheetah to resist, for not resisting would ultimately lead to total destitution and statelessness?

And lets not talk about an evolved society, for evolved societies dont drop heavy duty bombs and chemicals on a destitute population. And evolved societies would immediately object at such actions and not try to make excuses for these actions. We in the west are such evolved societies arent we???

 

[rowie]

Just the same as there is no logic in the IDF firing randomly and without reason or cause into what would otherwise be civilian targets, but some choose to ignore this.

Both sides have been killing each other for ages. No one side has any kind of moral high ground and to argue otherwise is moronic, and partly the reason why the conflict continues to this day.

Hello, but that is exactly what they have been doing! Havent you been watching the news???@!!!

 

[nick2fish]

Well, it is my opinion that doing absolutely nothing in the face of aggression and brutality is a bigger threat to your existence than taking action. Being absolutely passive and accepting ones fate would lead to israels ultimate objective of leaving palestinians destitute and utterly stateless, to languish in refugee camps near the borders of egypt, jordan etc. These countries do not even want this burden to start with. So the Palestinian fight is one very much of survival, not as you say, a suicidal fight. They have lived through countless assaults on they're population, even during supposed cease fires Palestinians are killed on a daily basis. Embargos applied, infrastructure destroyed not because of theyre resistance but simply because they exist! So to go back to your cheetah example, if the lions only interest was in your total ejection from the wherever they roam to say a zoo, do you not think that it is in the best interest of the cheetah to resist, for not resisting would ultimately lead to total destitution and statelessness?

And lets not talk about an evolved society, for evolved societies dont drop heavy duty bombs and chemicals on a destitute population. And evolved societies would immediately object at such actions and not try to make excuses for these actions. We in the west are such evolved societies arent we???

Pre 2006 Palestinians did not even have a refugee camp as you put it. There is a path to statehood but it will take patience from the Palestinians. Add to that a huge worldwide focus coupled with diplomacy and constant pressure.
And the fellow Arab countries that do not want to be bothered just adds to the enormity of the problem.
The message is simple from Israel
Continue your agression and we will destroy you
Stop and though oppression and discomfort may still exist so will you
If you think that you can fight and lose so many people you are mad, as mad as someone that straps explosives to themselves to blow up innocent people and thinks that their actions will 1: Make a difference and 2: Be the right way to achieve ones goals

Have the Palestine people exhausted all Diplomatic avenues... I think not

It took years for apartheid to end in South Africa, years and a consistent worldwide struggle led by the victims.

Anyway Rowie you have the right of reply but this is my last post on this topic
Cheers

 

[rowie]

Pre 2006 Palestinians did not even have a refugee camp as you put it. There is a path to statehood but it will take patience from the Palestinians. Add to that a huge worldwide focus coupled with diplomacy and constant pressure.
And the fellow Arab countries that do not want to be bothered just adds to the enormity of the problem.
The message is simple from Israel
Continue your agression and we will destroy you
Stop and though oppression and discomfort may still exist so will you
If you think that you can fight and lose so many people you are mad, as mad as someone that straps explosives to themselves to blow up innocent people and thinks that their actions will 1: Make a difference and 2: Be the right way to achieve ones goals

Have the Palestine people exhausted all Diplomatic avenues... I think not

It took years for apartheid to end in South Africa, years and a consistent worldwide struggle led by the victims.

Anyway Rowie you have the right of reply but this is my last post on this topic
Cheers

I agree that diplomacy is vital in reaching a solution. However against a party which has no real interest in diplomacy, who have no real interest in a 2 state solution it is extremely difficult - unless there is pressure from the rest of the world. Like apartheid, the main reason for its demise was the worlds influence on south africas politics at the time and its resistance to the system. Coupled with the struggle of the ANC and Mandela's incarceration, all these factors galvanised at the time to bring about its eventual collapse.
The struggle of the palestinians is much the same however influence from the rest of the world is muted in contrast. No embargos on israel whatsoever apart from select muslim countries. Instead they have access to huge wealth and literally a blank cheque from the worlds most powerful country. Hence under this cover, they do as they please. Various palestinian factions have come and gone over the decades, both resisting in armed struggle and willing to take the diplomatic avenue. However when there is no real intention from 1 party to compromise at all, there can be no solution. So solution must be brought about from the outside, forced from the outside as in the case of south africa. But with blank cheque support from US, this will never be possible.
So palestinians will continue the struggle - the only way they know how. Until the world finally stands up and says that they have had enough, that they must be given land and recognised as an independent state.

 

[disarray]

So palestinians will continue the struggle - the only way they know how. Until the world finally stands up and says that they have had enough, that they must be given land and recognised as an independent state.

so keep blowing stuff up until people get sick of it and give you what you want hey? you'll forgive me if i don't hold my breath while i wait for that tactic to work.

 

[lucas]

So palestinians will continue the struggle - the only way they know how. Until the world finally stands up and says that they have had enough, that they must be given land and recognised as an independent state.

The only way they know how is by pushing handicapped people off ships; murdering athletes; blowing up innocents; firing rockets indiscriminately into crowded cities for years on end; and calling for the wholesale destruction of the enemy as policy.

Hasn't anyone told the Ps about PR? It doesn't wash, it doesn't work and it's about time that they tried a sensible tactic.

 

[The Muffin Man]

Hello, but that is exactly what they have been doing! Havent you been watching the news???@!!!

Hello, but the IDF says they fire upon targets which fire upon them. Haven't you been watching the news and listening to what Israel has been saying???@!!!

 

[rowie]

Hello, but the IDF says they fire upon targets which fire upon them. Haven't you been watching the news and listening to what Israel has been saying???@!!!

So they fire at schools, houses, hospitals, UN facilities, businesses. They have fired at UN schools and the HQ knowing full well theyre coordinates and knowing full well they are full of civilians - women and children. How do you justify that?

 

[rowie]

Hello, but the IDF says they fire upon targets which fire upon them. Haven't you been watching the news and listening to what Israel has been saying???@!!!

Have a read of this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4580139.stm

Im sure you will argue its Amnesty International propaganda.

 

[mayk]

Strategically, moral issues aside, the timing of Israel offensive was extra-ordinary. By quietly withdrawing, during this transition of power in US, the world will forget Gaza in a matter of days.

It also sits well with all the parties participating in the next election in Israel. Even those who had no chance of winning the election are now the likely candidates.

Militarily Israel must have done sufficient structural damage. Hamaz organization in disarray, with many Palestinians partially blaming them for their sufferings. Not to mention the total silence of the Arab world over this episode. Overall a poorly co-ordinated effort on Hamaz part.

In conclusion, Israel has taken full advantage of this window of opportunity. Gaza (and Hamaz) would take a while (6-12 months) to recoup their losses, and by that time, the new administration will be tamed into submissiveness.

 

[rederob]

Pre 2006 Palestinians did not even have a refugee camp as you put it.

There have been Palestinian refugee camps for about 70 years.

There is a path to statehood but it will take patience from the Palestinians.

Over 100 UN resolutions in support of a Palestinian State: And we have.....

Add to that a huge worldwide focus coupled with diplomacy and constant pressure.

Which have achieved diddly squat since partition in 1947.

And the fellow Arab countries that do not want to be bothered just adds to the enormity of the problem.

Be careful where you get your news!

The message is simple from Israel
Continue your aggression and we will destroy you

Doubtful, there are almost as many Palestinian refugees scattered nearby as there are Jews in Israel

Stop and though oppression and discomfort may still exist so will you

So it's ok to be treated like a dog; "lie down and play dead".

If you think that you can fight and lose so many people you are mad, as mad as someone that straps explosives to themselves to blow up innocent people and thinks that their actions will 1: Make a difference and 2: Be the right way to achieve ones goals

Non sequiturs make poor logical arguments.

Have the Palestine people exhausted all Diplomatic avenues... I think not

Since 1949, Resolution 194 has been reaffirmed more than 110 times by the General Assembly.
"Refugees who wish to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practical date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to, property which under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the governments or authorities responsible."

It took years for apartheid to end in South Africa, years and a consistent worldwide struggle led by the victims.

Very, very different circumstances. Apartheid had as many supporters abroad as did the Ku Klux Klan. South Africa's fate was inevitable, on the sheer weight of numbers, aside from external pressures.

 

[Macquack]

Strategically, moral issues aside, the timing of Israel offensive was extra-ordinary. By quietly withdrawing, during this transition of power in US, the world will forget Gaza in a matter of days.

It also sits well with all the parties participating in the next election in Israel. Even those who had no chance of winning the election are now the likely candidates.

Militarily Israel must have done sufficient structural damage. Hamaz organization in disarray, with many Palestinians partially blaming them for their sufferings. Not to mention the total silence of the Arab world over this episode. Overall a poorly co-ordinated effort on Hamaz part.

In conclusion, Israel has taken full advantage of this window of opportunity. Gaza (and Hamaz) would take a while (6-12 months) to recoup their losses, and by that time, the new administration will be tamed into submissiveness.

Mayk, I dont quite get what you mean.

Do you mean Hamas will be tamed into submission?

Or, do you mean it was the last chance for war mongering "nazi" Ehud Olmert to inflict as much punishment he could on the Palestian people?

 

[rowie]

The only way they know how is by pushing handicapped people off ships; murdering athletes; blowing up innocents; firing rockets indiscriminately into crowded cities for years on end; and calling for the wholesale destruction of the enemy as policy.

Hasn't anyone told the Ps about PR? It doesn't wash, it doesn't work and it's about time that they tried a sensible tactic.

LOL

 

[rowie]

The only way they know how is by pushing handicapped people off ships; murdering athletes; blowing up innocents; firing rockets indiscriminately into crowded cities for years on end; and calling for the wholesale destruction of the enemy as policy.

Hasn't anyone told the Ps about PR? It doesn't wash, it doesn't work and it's about time that they tried a sensible tactic.

Do you happen to subscribe to jihadwatch as well Lucas??

 

[mayk]

Mayk, I dont quite get what you mean.

Do you mean Hamas will be tamed into submission?

Or, do you mean it was the last chance for war mongering "nazi" Ehud Olmert to inflict as much punishment he could on the Palestian people?

I mean Obamamania will cool down and can easily be manipulated by Israel lobby. They don't want him to lose public face so early in the office.

Even if Hamas is finished, a new organization will appear. Oppression spawns freedom fighters (aka terrorists ). Listen to the British politician's speech I posted, gave such an accurate account of what is happening.

 

[lucas]

Do you happen to subscribe to jihadwatch as well Lucas??

Would it make my point any less relevant? If so, why? Because it is an alternative to your viewpoint? And that makes it somehow less plausible? Why are your extremes acceptable, but any other viewpoint, extreme or otherwise, is instantly dismissable? If it smells like, quacks like a fascist attitude, I think it might well be...

Israel has proved time and time again that everyone in Gaza is fair game, including children. This crap about children as human shields is simply that - crap. Hamas would at the very least know by now that this tactic simply does not work in the face of an army willing to kill just about anyone. There is no logic in this.

Well, that is what you wholeheartedly and I think sincerely believe. But how do you explain this video that Snake presented a while back?

And here is the knockout punch:



Take the rose coloured glasses off.

I would like to know your argument for believing the human shield statements to be crap given that video. Should we perhaps find someone who can validate the Arabic?

I am prepared to believe anything.

 

[rowie]

Would it make my point any less relevant? If so, why? Because it is an alternative to your viewpoint? And that makes it somehow less plausible? Why are your extremes acceptable, but any other viewpoint, extreme or otherwise, is instantly dismissable? If it smells like, quacks like a fascist attitude, I think it might well be...



Well, that is what you wholeheartedly and I think sincerely believe. But how do you explain this video that Snake presented a while back?



I would like to know your argument for believing the human shield statements to be crap given that video. Should we perhaps find someone who can validate the Arabic?

I am prepared to believe anything.

If you can cite one piece of evidence, not from Israel or Hamas of them using children as human shields, then perhaps I may be convinced. The best source to get this is from the UN since they are the main humanitarian body in Gaza and they are neutral. If the shield theory is correct, the UN would know and report this. Go look for evidence. Oh, here is a video you might find interesting - interview with a UN official(perhaps a Hamas agent?):
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=0O1YpBF1_bM

 

[rowie]

And please dont provide source of evidence from the Israeli ambassador to the UN.

 

[lucas]

If you can cite one piece of evidence, not from Israel or Hamas of them using children as human shields, then perhaps I may be convinced. The best source to get this is from the UN since they are the main humanitarian body in Gaza and they are neutral. If the shield theory is correct, the UN would know and report this. Go look for evidence. Oh, here is a video you might find interesting - interview with a UN official(perhaps a Hamas agent?):
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=0O1YpBF1_bM

So, I'll do the work for you - your argument is that this is mere rhetoric, right?