Israel in the Gaza Strip

[rowie]

Disarray, I suggest you read the Koran to get a real understanding of this religion. Rather than reading crap from websites, why dont you go straight to the source? It wont kill you, the only harm is expansion of your knowledge and mind. Get it straight from the source.

 

[wayneL]

disarray,

By the same token, there is no moderate Christianity or Judaism then either, only moderate Christians and Jews.

As regards to the UK. There are problem areas that have become radicalized, mostly in economically deprived areas where they also endure the most racism/religious discrimination. The UK specializes in deprivation and it's not just Muslims that are a problem here. We also have the white "chav" underclass that actually cause more problems than the Muslims.... and are more hated by middle class white folks than Muslims are.

But they're indigenous, so it is reported differently.

Let's put it this way. If I see a group of Muslims walking toward me, I walk straight through the middle of them without fear. If I see a group of chavs, I'll avoid them. They are are just gratuitously violent... ####ing feral.

To put it bluntly, there is a problem with radical elements of Islam, but:

1/ It is grossly overstated by sites such as the one you mention.
2/ The radicalization is often initiated and perpetuated because of institutional (government) actions in Islamic countries... i.e. the west has been ####ing around in the ME because of oil, Israel etc for decades.
3/ the lunatic extreme left jobsworths cowtow to them, emboldening them to be ever more demanding.

In other words, we have to apportion blame properly and examine our own complicity in the problem of radical Islam, if only to improve the situation. One the one hand, butt out of their affairs in their own countries, but on the other, be much sterner with them in ours.

 

[mayk]

Dissarray - Heres a direct quote from the koran:

Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

Just to give it a proper reference.
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.html
005.069

YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

I love the work of the university students when they provide modern tools to make fact validation simple and easy.

 

[cuttlefish]

now what you can do, if you have a point to make about the jews, is gather your facts, reference them, and make your point with factual backing. then people can debate THE POINTS and THE FACTS on their merits!

Please be careful not to put words into my mouth. My post had nothing to do with making any kind of point about Judaism. I thought my point was obvious - both sites are similar in name and style, and both sites are full of paranoid hate mongering rubbish.

I was hoping you would see the similarity in the name, style and content and realise how ridiculous it was to refer us to the jihad watch site for 'facts' about Islam. I wouldn't believe anything I read on that site.

I was also hoping it might open your eyes up to the fact that this sort of rubbish can be peddled about any religion - i.e. I was hoping it might help you see the site you referred us to for what it is.

Clearly that isn't the case and instead you've misinterpreted it as me trying to make some point about Judaism .

 

[rederob]

i'm saying i don't see jews and muslims getting along because of their religious differences and the bad history between them. that is my personal opinion based on my understanding of things. clear enough for you?

You were categorical in saying they had no "collective destiny", and that there was no solution to the present situation.
Yet their coexistence for hundreds of years has been no more difficult than that of countless other ethnic and religious mergings. Even today 15% of the Israeli population is of the Muslim faith. And the problems encountered within Israel are generally due to radical or terrorist acts, typically from across the border, so to speak.

Changing tack slightly, I have listened carefully to the consummately crafted media commentary of Mark Regev, and seen him latterly getting a bit flustered when interviewed. He is careful to add enough confusion to his replies so that he isn't hoist on his own petard.
For example, in commenting on the "unfortunate" bombing of a UN facility where hundreds of civilian Gazans were seeking safety, Regev effectively stated that gunmen had been seen running into that very same facility. He allowed us to imply that this was good enough reason for the Israelis to "hit" the facility. What he dare not say or suggest in the same interview was that Israel was doing everything it could to avoid civilian casualties. And he achieved this by continuing the beat up of gunmen using Gazans as civilian shields.
If you want a good understanding of what Israel is up to in the Gazan conflict, listen carefully for what Regev does not say.

 

[rowie]

You were categorical in saying they had no "collective destiny", and that there was no solution to the present situation.
Yet their coexistence for hundreds of years has been no more difficult than that of countless other ethnic and religious mergings. Even today 15% of the Israeli population is of the Muslim faith. And the problems encountered within Israel are generally due to radical or terrorist acts, typically from across the border, so to speak.

Changing tack slightly, I have listened carefully to the consummately crafted media commentary of Mark Regev, and seen him latterly getting a bit flustered when interviewed. He is careful to add enough confusion to his replies so that he isn't hoist on his own petard.
For example, in commenting on the "unfortunate" bombing of a UN facility where hundreds of civilian Gazans were seeking safety, Regev effectively stated that gunmen had been seen running into that very same facility. He allowed us to imply that this was good enough reason for the Israelis to "hit" the facility. What he dare not say or suggest in the same interview was that Israel was doing everything it could to avoid civilian casualties. And he achieved this by continuing the beat up of gunmen using Gazans as civilian shields.
If you want a good understanding of what Israel is up to in the Gazan conflict, listen carefully for what Regev does not say.

Well put. Indeed the beat up of Palestinian gunmen using Gazan children as human shields is clearly a tested propoganda tool used by the Israeli political/military to justify attacks on unarmed civilians. Anyone with half a brain would easily understand that children are probably the worst shields to use against Israel seeing as how over 300 already have been killed in this brutal attack and seeing as how they the military is not holding back on its targets. If the UN HQ can come under fire, anything is fair game, with or without children it appears. This is clear, yet people still claim they are being used as shields. Not too effective these shields at all.

 

[Happy]

Originally Posted by rederob

For example, in commenting on the "unfortunate" bombing of a UN facility where hundreds of civilian Gazans were seeking safety, Regev effectively stated that gunmen had been seen running into that very same facility. He allowed us to imply that this was good enough reason for the Israelis to "hit" the facility.

It could be also argued, that gunmen if worried about safety of children and civilians should not look for shelter in the same place that innocent children and civilians were hiding.

Well put. Indeed the beat up of Palestinian gunmen using Gazan children as human shields is clearly a tested propoganda tool used by the Israeli political/military to justify attacks on unarmed civilians. Anyone with half a brain would easily understand that children are probably the worst shields to use against Israel seeing as how over 300 already have been killed in this brutal attack and seeing as how they the military is not holding back on its targets. If the UN HQ can come under fire, anything is fair game, with or without children it appears. This is clear, yet people still claim they are being used as shields. Not too effective these shields at all.

Gunmen have also choice where to hide, if they know by now that they are target magnet.
Should they be so concerned for safety of children and civilians they - at this stage of war - they should know by now where to hide.

This is only speculation on who should do what, if cares.

 

[GumbyLearner]

Perhaps it's just me but it's the glazed over eyes of the mini-academics who wet themselves when he speaks that bug me. Sort of the same feeling I get when Oprah throws cars at the audience.

That was hilarious Lucas. ROFL

 

[lucky milo]

This is some thing we have to get use to it will only stop once religion is banned.
Its been going on for thousands of years and will continue to do so long after we have passed on.

It's not always about Religion, its just some twisted power hungry politicians that USE religion so they can get widespread support from the majority ignorant public. If religion wasn't in the picture they would still want their own state, its more about land that Israel took away...and that can have vengeance which lasts for centuries.

 

[wayneL]

A few journalists are now being allowed restricted access to Gaza. FWIW here is the first report from the UK contingent.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5526922.ece

 

[wayneL]

Here is an article in a sincere attempt to balance the issues, does a pretty good job IMO, but may ignore a great swaithe of history.

Israel's cause is just but some of its tactics are self-defeating

 

[doctorj]

Jewish MP says Israeli soldiers are like Nazis

A Jewish MP has compared Israeli troops in Gaza to the Nazis who forced his family to flee Poland.

Sir Gerald Kaufman said the Israeli government was 'ruthlessly and cynically' exploiting the guilt over the Holocaust as justification for the assault on Gaza.

'My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town... a German soldier shot her dead in her bed,' he told MPs. 'My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza.'

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/world/a...n_article_id=483107&in_page_id=64&in_a_source=

 

[rederob]

UN seeks Israel Gaza school hit probe
January 17, 2009 - 9:24PM
United Nations officials on Saturday demanded an investigation into a new Israeli strike on a UN-run school in Gaza, which killed a woman and a child in the fourth such attack during its war on Hamas.

More than one dozen people were wounded when Israeli shells hit the school compound in the northern town of Beit Lahiya where some 1,600 people had taken refuge to escape fierce clashes outside, officials said.

The UN agency for Palestinian refugees UNRWA condemned the attack and called for an investigation.

"Just before seven o'clock this morning (0500 GMT) several rounds of shells went directly into the school compound in Beit Lahiya. There was a pause and then there was a round that directly hit the school building killing two people," said UNRWA spokesman Christopher Gunness.

"Where you have a direct hit on an UNRWA school where about 1,600 people had taken refuge, where the Israeli army knows the coordinates and knows who's there, where this comes as the latest in a catalogue of direct and indirect attacks on UNRWA facilities, there have to be investigations to establish whether war crimes have been committed," he said.

"This yet again illustrates the tragedy that there is no safe place in Gaza and not even a UN installation is safe," he said. "There is no place to flee."

The raid is at least the fourth time that Israel has hit an UNRWA school during its 22-day-old war on Hamas in Gaza.

Israel showed in their 2006 war on Lebanon that UN posts were not safe, with a direct hit on the unmistakable UNIFIL patrol base.
Israel undertakes to "investigate" these instances, and always "regrets" the loss of life.
Ir reality it's a deliberate campaign they embark on and they care not who gets in their way.
If they did "care" there would have only been one "mistake" in hitting an UNRWA school, not four.

 

[Macquack]

US Congressman Dr Ron Paul says that "We (USA) should be on neither side".

Furthermore, Ron Paul states "The Palestinians are virtually in like a concentration camp. They have a few small missiles, but it is so minor compared to the firepower of Israel who has nuclear weapons. And they can turn off all the food and all the water and what ever they want to the people in Palestine."

 

[mayk]

Israel showed in their 2006 war on Lebanon that UN posts were not safe, with a direct hit on the unmistakable UNIFIL patrol base.
Israel undertakes to "investigate" these instances, and always "regrets" the loss of life.
Ir reality it's a deliberate campaign they embark on and they care not who gets in their way.
If they did "care" there would have only been one "mistake" in hitting an UNRWA school, not four.

The death of a human life is regrettable in any man-made disaster. I generally feel more sorry for the people who are wounded and have to suffer rest of their lives. Amputated, blinded and burned, without any reason (in this case most of them children).

It is a general observation, in the same vain, I feel sorry for the wounded American/Australian soldiers. Because they are always forgotten heroes. People are more interested in counting and comparing the dead numbers. Not counting the injured and the impact it will have on their lives.

In retrospect, this decade (finger crossed), is turning out to be a disastrous start to this century/millennium ( 9/11,Afghanistan,Iraq,Lebanon-Israel,Gaza, Georgia-Russia, Credit crunch - World wide Recession). I wish the biggest news of this decade was a sex-scandal like the 90's (well at least we are on to a good start with a democrat in the white house).

 

[haunting]

Worth a read.

 

[Happy]

From ABC, 19 Jan. 09
GAZA WAR 'GREAT VICTORY' FOR PALESTINIANS: HANIYA

Senior Hamas leader Ismail Haniya said the Gaza war with Israel amounted to a "great victory" for the Palestinians, in a televised speech.
"God has granted us a great victory, not for one faction, or party, or area, but for our entire people," said Mr Haniya, the prime minister appointed by Hamas in the impoverished territory.
"We have stopped the aggression and the enemy has failed to achieve any of its goals," he added, less than 24 hours after Israel halted a massive offensive on Gaza that killed more than 1,300 Palestinians.
The senior Hamas leader has been in hiding since the start of the offensive on December 27, but made two previous televised statements promising victory amid the deadliest Israeli offensive ever launched on the territory.
Mr Haniya confirmed his movement's decision earlier on Sunday to adhere to its own unilateral truce for one week to allow Israel to withdraw all its troops and to reopen Gaza's border crossings.
"The groups of the resistance have decided to halt their fire in Gaza so that the enemy army can completely withdraw," he said.
"The decision proves that the resistance was correct and responsible, and works according to the interests of our people."
Israeli troops began withdrawing from Gaza after the ceasefire took effect at 2:00am on Sunday (local time) but Israel has said its military will return fire if attacked and has not set a date for their full withdrawal.
- AFP

"great victory" - Fantastic result against such difficulties.

 

[nick2fish]

Well if your leaders can be that delusional, there is not much hope for any positive future prospects for the country and its people, not based on reality anyway.... and the great one will desend from the heavens and wave his magic wand........

 

[disarray]

Disarray, I suggest you read the Koran to get a real understanding of this religion. Rather than reading crap from websites, why dont you go straight to the source? It wont kill you, the only harm is expansion of your knowledge and mind. Get it straight from the source.

look there's countless videos and articles and posts out there from islamic religious leaders calling for jihad and the destruction of the west, while quoting koranic scripture and shouting out allah ackbar. if you are so offended by negative interpretations of islam then you should be getting upset at the jihadis and muslim leaders who cause it rather than westerners who object to it. i've posted plenty of links outlining why i believe what i do so either show me where these negative interpretations are wrong or get over it.

Koran Chapter 8 - Al-Anfal - Spoils of War / Booty

008.012 YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

008.013 YUSUFALI: This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

008.014 YUSUFALI: Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire."

008.038 YUSUFALI: Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

(which is being cast into hellfire, no doubt helped along with allahs blessing by the righteous jihadis)

better not contend against allah then hey? straight from the source enough for you?

or how about chapter 23?

023.001 YUSUFALI: The believers must (eventually) win through,-

023.002 YUSUFALI: Those who humble themselves in their prayers;

023.003 YUSUFALI: Who avoid vain talk;

023.004 YUSUFALI: Who are active in deeds of charity;

023.005 YUSUFALI: Who abstain from sex,

023.006 YUSUFALI: Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,

this is a good one. be humble and chaste, unless your nailing your wife. or your slaves. enlightened!

further to that point, i also object to the verses in the koran that tell me what to eat and how to pray, the same as i object to any other religion that tells me how to live my life.

By the same token, there is no moderate Christianity or Judaism then either, only moderate Christians and Jews.

nowhere in any of my posts have i said that christianity or judaism are better / less violent / more moderate than islam, yet i am constantly refuted with the claims "well what about christianity etc". that is not the measure by which we should judge islam - we are a secular and democratic state, we hold and enforce these ideals, and these are the ideals we should compare islam to.

In other words, we have to apportion blame properly and examine our own complicity in the problem of radical Islam, if only to improve the situation. One the one hand, butt out of their affairs in their own countries, but on the other, be much sterner with them in ours.

/agree. i don't agree with a lot of US foreign policy either. just because i think islam is barbaric and oppressive doesn't make me a christian or a george bush supporter.

I was hoping you would see the similarity in the name, style and content and realise how ridiculous it was to refer us to the jihad watch site for 'facts' about Islam. I wouldn't believe anything I read on that site.

see, this is what i don't get. you just go "this site is rubbish" and reject out of hand the facts they presented, but you don't make any attempt to refute the claims or say why they are wrong. you just don't like the title and say "oh its got a crappy name, the guy must be a fascist, there couldn't possibly be any truth in the site whatsoever". and here you are accusing me of closed mindedness and ignorance while you sit there and reject outright well referenced and reasoned articles because you don't like the message. hypocrisy much?

You were categorical in saying they had no "collective destiny", and that there was no solution to the present situation.
Yet their coexistence for hundreds of years has been no more difficult than that of countless other ethnic and religious mergings. Even today 15% of the Israeli population is of the Muslim faith. And the problems encountered within Israel are generally due to radical or terrorist acts, typically from across the border, so to speak.

well that's my opinion, you have yours. i hold my opinion because i feel humanity is entering a very bearish phase, where population pressures and resource depletion (especially water) are going to cause a great deal of conflict in that area, and the already substantial divisions along race, culture and religion are going to become more pronounced and will form the battlelines in the conflict to come. so to each their own, but if you have a working crystal ball feel free to tell me how its all going to unfold (and drop in a stock tip while you're at it)

i also read an interesting article that a possible israeli "final solution" is to concentrate the palestinians into a small area (achieved), make life difficult for them, then open a corridor for them to piss off out of gaza and head into jordan or egypt or something freeing up the land for the israelis to move in. seems plausible.

/walloftext

 

[gordon2007]

I rather like that post disarray!