Israel in the Gaza Strip

[rowie]

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[rowie]

So, I'll do the work for you - your argument is that this is mere rhetoric, right?

Yes, please do the work. And please, independent reliable sources only.

 

[rowie]

Here is potentially a reliable source of info:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-...dangered-military-tactics-both-sides-20090108

 

[lucas]

I asked you to explain the content of the video - that is, why a Hamas MP would say such a thing.

Are you saying that we should not believe it because it comes from an unreliable source? That is, you are saying this is not a Hamas MP and he is not saying what we are being led to believe he is saying? As I said, I don't know arabic. Maybe you do.

If you explain the video away as from an unreliable source, then you must be saying it is somehow doctored? Or it is rhetoric only?

Which is it? Both, neither or either? Which?

 

[rowie]

I asked you to explain the content of the video - that is, why a Hamas MP would say such a thing.

Are you saying that we should not believe it because it comes from an unreliable source? That is, you are saying this is not a Hamas MP and he is not saying what we are being led to believe he is saying? As I said, I don't know arabic. Maybe you do.

If you explain the video away as from an unreliable source, then you must be saying it is somehow doctored? Or it is rhetoric only?

Which is it? Both, neither or either? Which?

Lucas, please simply provide evidence. If this is in fact what Hamas is doing, there must be accounts from neutral sources. Whatever the translation of the video, rhetoric, unreliable etc....

Oh btw, it seems that this issue is turning on its head. The more I search, the more proof I find that it is in fact the IDF who utilise palestinian human shields in theyre operations in the occupied territories. Note that my sources are from Amnesty the UN and Israeli human rights groups, not Hamas propaganda:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/mar/09/israel

 

[rowie]

Amnesty International report on Israels use of Gazans as human shields:

http://boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/thread.aspx?ThreadID=896969

 

[lucas]

So you refuse to explain the man's words or even entertain the possibility that this is as it appears, a Hamas MP mouthing off about how his constituents should be proud to use themselves as human shields? You argument is, it seems, that I should prove it.

Notice, I didn't ask you to prove it were not true; I asked you provide an argument as to why its existence should not lead any reasonable viewer to conclude that it is what it is.

Your arguments against this video being credible are not arguments at all, they are simply deflections from having to answer.

 

[rowie]

Again another article on the use of human shields by the IDF, this time from Israels oldest daily paper:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/867486.html

 

[lucas]

More deflection - more refusal to accept the possibility of anything other than your own beliefs.

 

[rowie]

So you refuse to explain the man's words or even entertain the possibility that this is as it appears, a Hamas MP mouthing off about how his constituents should be proud to use themselves as human shields? You argument is, it seems, that I should prove it.

Notice, I didn't ask you to prove it were not true; I asked you provide an argument as to why its existence should not lead any reasonable viewer to conclude that it is what it is.

Your arguments against this video being credible are not arguments at all, they are simply deflections from having to answer.

Lucas, I am trying to tell you that I can accept any neutral evidence that is put forward to me that shows that they use human shields. The video u put forward is firstly in Arabic (cant understand). Secondly it could possibly be rhetoric, in the same way that many despotic moronic leaders say that the blood of every last civilian will be spilt in defence of etc etc etc. What I am asking u to provide is proof from say the UN that this is in fact modus operandi of the Palestinian resistance. Now as far as I know, actions speak a whole lot louder than words. So while I am not refuting what this guy on the video is saying, all I am asking for is neutral proof. Such as the proof that I have provided showing Israels complicity in using human shields.... Go and get it and convince me. This video does not convince me. (It could be true, but I am not entirely convinced) Is this so hard to understand?

 

[rowie]

More deflection - more refusal to accept the possibility of anything other than your own beliefs.

Looks like your stumped. This human shields argument has turned full circle.

 

[rowie]

More deflection - more refusal to accept the possibility of anything other than your own beliefs.

Like I said, I am willing to accept any possibility, just show me substantial, neutral evidence!@!!

 

[wayneL]

Like I said, I am willing to accept any possibility, just show me substantial, neutral evidence!@!!

Indeed. It seems to me that it's a tactic used by all sorts of soldiers/fighters of all persuasions down through the ages.

The fact that it seems Israelis also did so, comes as no surprise.

 

[rowie]

Indeed. It seems to me that it's a tactic used by all sorts of soldiers/fighters of all persuasions down through the ages.

The fact that it seems Israelis also did so, comes as no surprise.

Agree. Actually, large body of evidence points to the fact that this tactic is more widely used by the IDF than Hamas. Which would make more sense considering they are the occupiers.

 

[lucas]

Agree. Actually, large body of evidence points to the fact that this tactic is more widely used by the IDF than Hamas. Which would make more sense considering they are the occupiers.

So, in your own words, your previous comment about Hamas' use of civilians as human shields being crap is...crap.

Thought so.

 

[Sean K]

Actually, large body of evidence points to the fact that this tactic is more widely used by the IDF than Hamas.

We're talking about human shields here are we?

Just for clarrification.

Cheers.

 

[rowie]

So, in your own words, your previous comment about Hamas' use of civilians as human shields being crap is...crap.

Thought so.

Lucas buddy, I am still waiting for evidence on your part - You said you were going to work on it.... Until then, it still is crap in my opinion, until you show me neutral evidence to the contrary.

 

[rowie]

We're talking about human shields here are we?

Just for clarrification.

Cheers.

Yes.

 

[disarray]

israel has also used human shields before, however the practice has been outlawed by israel's supreme court and forbidden by the army. accusations of human shield use by the IDF are investigated by the army so it isn't an official policy by any stretch, although it still occurs on occasion. contrast with hamas who use human shields as official policy.

i would imagine maintaining morals and ethics during wartime would be difficult, especially when fighting an enemy that doesn't seem to demonstrate any.

The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups insist the IDF continues to use it, although they acknowledge the number of instances has dropped sharply ...

In November 2006, Palestinian women volunteered as human shields to allow the escape of Hamas gunmen from Israeli forces in Beit Hanoun in the Gaza Strip. The armed Palestinians had barricaded themselves in a mosque, which was surrounded by Israeli troops and tanks. According to a Hamas spokeman, a crowd of women gathered outside the mosque in response to an appeal on the local radio station for women to protect the Hamas fighters. The Palestinian gunmen escaped by dressing in women's clothes and hiding in the large group.

That same month, the Israeli Air Force warned Mohammed Weil Baroud, a Palestinian leader said to be responsible for firing Qassam rockets at Israel, to evacuate his home in Beit Lahia in the Gaza Strip in advance of an airstrike. Instead, hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, gathered outside Baroud's house. Israel suspended the airstrike out of fear that the human shields would be killed or injured. In response to Israel's reaction, another Palestinian leader said: "We have won. From now on we will form human chains around every house that is threatened with demolition."

On October 29 2007, in response to criticism of Israel's bombing of a Beit Hanoun Elementary School for boys run by UNRWA, the Israel Defense Forces released drone footage of mortars shot from a street adjacent to the school. Israel warned Ban Ki Moon about the danger and requested an investigation. On January 6, 2009, local eyewitnesses confirmed that Hamas militants had fired at Israeli troops from adjacent a UN school for girls where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge. 42 Palestinians were killed and 55 wounded when the school was hit by return fire. Israel accused Hamas of "cynically" using civilians as human shields. A report from the IDF brigade responsible for the attack stated that militants had launched a rocket into Israel from a yard adjacent to the UN building and the paratroop brigade had fired three rounds of mortars at the position. A GPS error led to one of the mortars hitting the building.

In March 2008, a Hamas parliamentarian spoke of a "death-seeking" culture that uses women, children and the elderly as human shields against Israeli military attacks. "The enemies of God do not know that the Palestinian people have developed methods of death and death-seeking," Fathi Hammad said in a speech televised on Hamas' Al-Aqsa television station. "For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children," Hammad said. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death like you desire life,'" he said.

According to photographic accounts in 2008, Hamas has been deliberately using Gaza citizens as human shields by relocating likely targets to crowded neighborhoods.

 

[rowie]

israel has also used human shields before, however the practice has been outlawed by israel's supreme court and forbidden by the army. accusations of human shield use by the IDF are investigated by the army so it isn't an official policy by any stretch, although it still occurs on occasion. contrast with hamas who use human shields as official policy.

i would imagine maintaining morals and ethics during wartime would be difficult, especially when fighting an enemy that doesn't seem to demonstrate any.

Yes, so now please provide independent, neutral evidence that hamas systematically employ the human shield tactic - evidence from the UN, amnesty or respected Human Rights groups operating in the occupied territories will suffice.