Israel in the Gaza Strip

[mayk]

Another Internet 2.0 sensation.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Elections are easily won when governments get tough on terror.
Candidates who promise the toughest stance are most likely to be elected.

Then, as the consequences of getting tough come home to roost, the voting public realise they could have made a mistake.

If I was living in a country surrounded by Arabs I would want my government to be strong and decisive in its actions. And I would want to be proud in my nation's military and its capacities, as shown by actions in the field of battle.

I don't know when exactly a military response becomes "disproportionate", however it may have been "justified" at the outset. But after a few weeks of "battle" when the only people seemingly getting killed are the "enemy", the penny has well and truly dropped. Cap this off with significant evidence that women and children account for many of the dead and wounded, and it gets a bit difficult to believe the cause is still "just", let alone justifiable.

Perpetuating wrongs will never achieve a right.
And the Gazan conflict is an extension of many wrongs.
I don't have an answer.
But whatever it may be I doubt it will be achieved by more killings - from either side.

The Northern Island "solution" may provide the parties with some lessons they could all learn from. However, until there is a real willingness to want to "share" in their collective destinies I can't see that negotiations will achieve any lasting peace.

Unfortunately the Middle East has a sad history of assassinating leaders who stood on platforms advocating a peaceful solution to the Palestinian question.

Shame!

That is a good post Red.
Do you mean northern Ireland? (not Island?)

 

[wayneL]

Another Internet 2.0 sensation.

Doesn't look like those folks put much thought into their opinions. It's just a tribalistic response common to both sides that simply dehumanize their foes... kill them all because.... well, just because.

Peter Hitchens (who is more pro-palistinian) offers a stinging rebuke to pro Palestinian protesters in London. Precisely the same attitude with complete lack of thought that is apparent in the Pro Zionist protesters, is also evident with the pro Palestinian protesters. http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2009/01/howled-down-by.html

Rederob's comment - "However, until there is a real willingness to want to "share" in their collective destinies I can't see that negotiations will achieve any lasting peace. is bang on.

However, one observation. One lot of protesters seem to generally focus on the concept of "kill them all", whereas the other lot seem to revolve around the concept of "stop the slaughter".

Important note: The above comment is a gross generalization. There are many Jewish protesters who are not of the "kill them all" mindset, many even sympathetic with the Palestinians. Equally, there are those pro-Palistinians with the "kill them all" mindset too.

Is there something in that?

 

[disarray]

Rederob's comment - "However, until there is a real willingness to want to "share" in their collective destinies I can't see that negotiations will achieve any lasting peace. is bang on.

there is no "collective destiny" for jews or muslims, their entire faith revolves around being seperate, exclusive and superior.

there is no solution.

 

[mayk]

I found another interesting opinion from Naom Chomsky,

http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N63/chomskytalk.html

Professor Noam A. Chomsky lectured on Tuesday, Jan. 13 about the ongoing Israeli incursion into Gaza. Chomsky asserted that Israeli provocation was at the root of the continuing conflict with Palestinians and Hamas.



Chomsky Condemns U.S. and Israel For Civilian Deaths in Gaza Strip
By Elijah Jordan Turner
ASSOCIATE NEWS EDITOR
January 14, 2009

At a talk last night about the current situation in Gaza, Professor of Linguistics Noam A. Chomsky came down hard on Israel for its frequent violence against Palestinian civilians and chastised the United States for enabling the Jewish state to carry out these actions with impunity. He also used the opportunity to touch upon broader issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The talk, which took place at Sloan’s Wong Auditorium, was part of the Center of International Studies’ Starr Forum lecture series

 

[mayk]

there is no "collective destiny" for jews or muslims, their entire faith revolves around being seperate, exclusive and superior.

there is no solution.

I disagree, the main issue is land. Religion is used as an excuse on both sides.

 

[mayk]

However, one observation. One lot of protesters seem to generally focus on the concept of "kill them all", whereas the other lot seem to revolve around the concept of "stop the slaughter".

Important note: The above comment is a gross generalization. There are many Jewish protesters who are not of the "kill them all" mindset, many even sympathetic with the Palestinians. Equally, there are those pro-Palistinians with the "kill them all" mindset too.

Is there something in that?

Interesting observation. Perhaps just a PR stunt on behalf of Palestinians?

 

[wayneL]

there is no "collective destiny" for jews or muslims, their entire faith revolves around being seperate, exclusive and superior.

there is no solution.

I also disagree.

The problem is within the minority radical elements of both religions, rather than the religions themselves... and of course land as mayk points out.

 

[rederob]

That is a good post Red.
Do you mean northern Ireland? (not Island?)

Spell check corrected me.
I now stand properly corrected.
No man is an Ireland.

 

[lucas]

Land or religion; land and religion. And the winner is...?

It doesn't seem to matter much. Only that we can live without religion.

I go along with disarray. If you define yourself by your enemy and what they are not, it is jarring to read of a solution involving a collective destiny. Maybe their collective destiny is to be at each others' throats till kingdom come (listening to that lady in NY awaiting her god's intervention you just want to throw up.)

Other than that, rederob's comment was good.

As for Chomsky, it is healthy to remind yourself that his hobby is being left wing and his field of expertise is linguistics. His comments are no more valid than yours or mine, but probably better expressed. I thought it wouldn't be long before he was trotted out like some aging gladiator. Would he have been able to give his talk if the lecture theatre had been under constant bombardment by rockets during a ceasefire?

 

[Uncle Barry]

The fighting in Gaza has left more than 1,000 Palestinians dead and 4,600 wounded and about half the casualties are civilians, according to emergency services officials in Gaza.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aTMrvNHbj280&refer=home

 

[pilots]

there is no "collective destiny" for jews or muslims, their entire faith revolves around being seperate, exclusive and superior.

there is no solution.

What I find strange is that the Jews and Muslims have allot beliefs, that are all most the same, yet they can't live side by side.

 

[Aussiejeff]

What I find strange is that the Jews and Muslims have allot beliefs, that are all most the same, yet they can't live side by side.

Wrong. Many times throughout the millenia of history, the majority of Jews and Muslims have lived happily cheek by jowl for extended periods. Here is a pretty good link that details the pre-history & recent history of the whole sad mess that has evolved today. Especially the Early History and British Mandate sections.

http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache...ns+&+jews+before+WW2&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=au




aj

 

[Agentm]

The fighting in Gaza has left more than 1,000 Palestinians dead and 4,600 wounded and about half the casualties are civilians, according to emergency services officials in Gaza.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aTMrvNHbj280&refer=home

somewhere in all this the hamas military must be evaluating its effectiveness to win this current battle. i see this as being a very difficult task right now myself. they would be getting a lot of flak from their own community in fighting this battle around their home and from their roofs imho. support would have to be decreasing for hamas surely?

if hamas has 10,000 to 15,000 fighters in the battle today and has 500 dead and 2,300 wounded then your already in a very hard position to repel the military thats bound to be demoralising your troops. how to resupply and keep the battle co ordinated become increasingly difficult and frustrating when facing this type of military onslaught that you have provoked.

a few more months of this and unconditional surrender would be your only option, and early truce and agreement to stop firing upon israeli civilians would be contemplated right now, i cant see the outcome of hamas firing minimal numbers of rockets into israel and losing those numbers of combatants as a clever strategic military move. i think they are getting their pants flogged in this battle right now in every sense.

hamas would need to consider both as governing body and militarily if the outcome from this battle will leave them capable of maintaining their democratic ruling position, or holding any legitimate position of power in the future for the gaza community as a whole right now.

its a sad tale getting sadder and sadder each day

 

[rowie]

somewhere in all this the hamas military must be evaluating its effectiveness to win this current battle. i see this as being a very difficult task right now myself. they would be getting a lot of flak from their own community in fighting this battle around their home and from their roofs imho. support would have to be decreasing for hamas surely?

if hamas has 10,000 to 15,000 fighters in the battle today and has 500 dead and 2,300 wounded then your already in a very hard position to repel the military thats bound to be demoralising your troops. how to resupply and keep the battle co ordinated become increasingly difficult and frustrating when facing this type of military onslaught that you have provoked.

a few more months of this and unconditional surrender would be your only option, and early truce and agreement to stop firing upon israeli civilians would be contemplated right now, i cant see the outcome of hamas firing minimal numbers of rockets into israel and losing those numbers of combatants as a clever strategic military move. i think they are getting their pants flogged in this battle right now in every sense.

hamas would need to consider both as governing body and militarily if the outcome from this battle will leave them capable of maintaining their democratic ruling position, or holding any legitimate position of power in the future for the gaza community as a whole right now.

its a sad tale getting sadder and sadder each day

I beg to differ. I think Hamas is very much strengthened by these sorts of attacks because the population feel that they are the only ones standing up to the israelis. Hence theyre 'shock' elections victory back in 2006 when all thought that Fatah would cruise to victory. Hamas election victory was attributed to theyre apparent low level of corruption and willingness to resist israeli aggression and occupation. When you are pushed to a corner without much hope for your future, I guess you would choose someone who was willing to fight for you rather than roll over and give up. I would guess that if an election was held a month after these hostilities are over, Hamas would get in with an even bigger majority than the elections in 2006 - they are seen as the only ones willing to resist and help in this war.

 

[Agentm]

I beg to differ. I think Hamas is very much strengthened by these sorts of attacks because the population feel that they are the only ones standing up to the israelis. Hence theyre 'shock' elections victory back in 2006 when all thought that Fatah would cruise to victory. Hamas election victory was attributed to theyre apparent low level of corruption and willingness to resist israeli aggression and occupation. When you are pushed to a corner without much hope for your future, I guess you would choose someone who was willing to fight for you rather than roll over and give up. I would guess that if an election was held a month after these hostilities are over, Hamas would get in with an even bigger majority than the elections in 2006 - they are seen as the only ones willing to resist and help in this war.

ok, its a very interesting way to wage a war, knowingly take on a military thats going to annihilate you and they use that defeat to bolster up support for another election whist you are already in power, its certainly a shame that a governing body would undertake the risk of loss of life of its own members and the civilian population that put it in power to achieve a further democratic victory at a later point.. strategically they must be masters at knowing how to be completely overwhelmed in a battle and then still achieve victory later to get a bigger electoral vote,, what if the military you take on finds you first and sends a pretty large bomb into your bunker, can you calculate exactly when that happens before surrender? are you sure this is the military objective of hamas?

if that is the objective of the hamas military then so be it i guess. its going to cost so many lives of innocent humans imho to achieve it and still is tragic imho.., possibly more so.. i view it as almost a war crime to lose a battle and harm your citizens for a future election victory whilst in power..

 

[cuttlefish]

I also disagree.

The problem is within the minority radical elements of both religions, rather than the religions themselves... and of course land as mayk points out.

This is an important point. Its easy to view the conflict as every Palestinian being a rampant, militant, rocket launching, Jew hating fanatic - but given peaceful conditions the majority of people are typically happy to live in peace.

The current Israeli offensive is more institutional in that its a government military offensive - i.e. theoretically not an operation of fanatics - which is why its extremely dissappointing that there appears to be such careless disregard for the killing of innocents, but the majority of the Israeli people will also be content to live in peace if Hamas would stop launching rockets at them.

The fact that the supposedly responsible/moral (i.e.'non-terrorist') Israeli government has also been guilty of fairly aggressive behaviour in relation to settlement developments and restriction of movement/access in disputed areas - and again typically with little regard for human life - does help to increase the proportion of fanatical, Jew hating, rocket launching members in Palestinian society.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

What I find strange is that the Jews and Muslims have allot beliefs, that are all most the same, yet they can't live side by side.

What makes anyone think that this has anything to do with religion!!!??? The reality is that almost all religions (including Islam and Judism) teach tolerance and compassion for other people. If people lived by their religion and practiced what their ancestors learned before them (killing, theft, greed etc lead to social breakdown), then this carnage we are seeing might be avoided.

The reality is greed and fear cause war and murder. Nothing more, nothing less. What causes greed and fear - mostly ignorance and jealousy. How do you fight ignorance and jealously? Education, balanced judicial system and responsible media. All absent in this stupid mess - and also unfortunately absent on this discussion thread.

 

[trading_rookie]

Land or religion; land and religion. And the winner is...?

...if I was a betting man, I'd say the winner will be Syria. With the Israeli's leaving a bad taste in the mouths of the world's populace over it's treatment of civilians in the Gaza strip, it appears all is going to plan for Syria who are fighting a proxy war against Israel via Sunni Hamas...kinda like the Soviets did in Vietnam and Korea against the US or the US against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Syria appears to be in the drivers seat to get what they want most, the Golan Heights in return for recognising Israeli sovereignty.

And to top it off, they'll remain in Lebanon with no more than a slap on the wrist for the murder of the progressive Lebanese PM who was building the country up again from the ruins of the long running civil war and wanting to drive the Syrians out of the government and military. The last thing the UN/US want is to impose sanctions and drive the Syrians into the arms of the Iranians.

It's funny what we see on tv and what is really being played out behind closed doors far away from any shots being fired...

 

[rowie]

ok, its a very interesting way to wage a war, knowingly take on a military thats going to annihilate you and they use that defeat to bolster up support for another election whist you are already in power, its certainly a shame that a governing body would undertake the risk of loss of life of its own members and the civilian population that put it in power to achieve a further democratic victory at a later point.. strategically they must be masters at knowing how to be completely overwhelmed in a battle and then still achieve victory later to get a bigger electoral vote,, what if the military you take on finds you first and sends a pretty large bomb into your bunker, can you calculate exactly when that happens before surrender? are you sure this is the military objective of hamas?

if that is the objective of the hamas military then so be it i guess. its going to cost so many lives of innocent humans imho to achieve it and still is tragic imho.., possibly more so.. i view it as almost a war crime to lose a battle and harm your citizens for a future election victory whilst in power..

First and foremostly, where in my thread did I say that Hamas were doing this for electoral gain? The objective is resistance against occupation and reclaiming land that rightfully belongs to a palestinian state as agreed and passed through numerous UN resolutions. All I said in my last thread was that instead of making Hamas unpopular, the recent war is probably going to make them more popular. That is all.... Nothing at all was mentioned that they were resisting to win another election!!!