Israel in the Gaza Strip

[Agentm]

The video you have talked about showed what Hamas was doing within Gaza. Stopping a wedding because they played music and beat the groom up. The commentary was what it was but the camera doesn't lie. I am happy to see something that can prove the opposite. If you have anything serious to add to the discussion I am happy to read or watch.
Cheers..

snake


your an intelligent free thinking person, i have no doubt, but your not thinking straight. its not for me to research every youtube video you post and reveal its credibility, i think its up to the person posting it to check it out myself.. youtube is the greatest place of mis information and propaganda right now..

firstly dont stand behind and defend the vidio unless you "know" 100% its factual, which it isnt.. nothing is confirmed its obvious proaganda.. and very badly done imho..

two point on that video alone..

1/ the wedding, no bodies anywhere, no one was shot, the alleged "hamas" were never killing anything, and the so called groom was beaten with sticks,

it was just a lesson.. for having a soccer game on and perhaps too much noise.. no wedding, just a late night curfew being put in place perhaps? but a wedding?? dont believe a word of it..

2/ these guys lined up and killed?? wtf?? where were they killed. why no pictures of that? could have been just a show to the public, could have hamas themselves pretending to round up people to demonstrate power or authority. a PR stunt... could have been a lot of things, could have been done in any street and made to look like gaza.. but the commentator says they were all killed, no proof.. you get shocked into believing without any reveal or any facts.. clever manipulitve but utter garbage...

the sort of things i think need to be posted are relevant, factual and confirmed information.

just my 2 cents worth..

you good at researching i can see that, but your being led down the gargen path by believing everything.. imho you need to think it through a little..

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

snake


your an intelligent free thinking person, i have no doubt, but your not thinking straight. its not for me to research every youtube video you post and reveal its credibility, i think its up to the person posting it to check it out myself.. youtube is the greatest place of mis information and propaganda right now..

firstly dont stand behind and defend the vidio unless you "know" 100% its factual, which it isnt.. nothing is confirmed its obvious proaganda.. and very badly done imho..

two point on that video alone..

1/ the wedding, no bodies anywhere, no one was shot, the alleged "hamas" were never killing anything, and the so called groom was beaten with sticks,

it was just a lesson.. for having a soccer game on and perhaps too much noise.. no wedding, just a late night curfew being put in place perhaps? but a wedding?? dont believe a word of it..

2/ these guys lined up and killed?? wtf?? where were they killed. why no pictures of that? could have been just a show to the public, could have hamas themselves pretending to round up people to demonstrate power or authority. a PR stunt... could have been a lot of things, could have been done in any street and made to look like gaza.. but the commentator says they were all killed, no proof.. you get shocked into believing without any reveal or any facts.. clever manipulitve but utter garbage...

the sort of things i think need to be posted are relevant, factual and confirmed information.

just my 2 cents worth..

you good at researching i can see that, but your being led down the gargen path by believing everything.. imho you need to think it through a little..

Thanks Agent m for your thoughts on the topic.

I agree with your logic and some parts of that video are debatable. The images are what shocked me. In the real world beating with sticks and walkiing people up a street in line are not allowed. Am I supposed to turn off my sense of concern for other humans?

 

[Agentm]

straight from the horse's mouth:

i assume its this joe guy, from the obama "joe the plumber fame"

i hear there is a media circus around him!! he has no education in the region, no understandings of the religious beliefs. no background in journalism nor objectivity.. nor in the politics nor knowledge of the players or the history, nor anything really. there are thousands of reporters unable to enter gaza, firstly they have no courage to go in and only select few are allowed in on invite. poor old joe has been on a whirlwind tour of isreal, visiting every bomb site, bombed school and he cannot say anything other something pro Israel.. suddenly the joe story is bigger than the war!

joe lacks complete objectivity and is looking pretty sad right now.. what an induction into journalism hey!!

 

[lucas]

I don't know how far off topic this is but this short film is pretty controversial:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=60098

17 minutes out of your life, though. Graphic and horrible. Be warned.

Does it incite violence? Should it be banned? Is it propaganda?

Beats me. But this is what the world is up against.

 

[mayk]

i assume its this joe guy, from the obama "joe the plumber fame"

i hear there is a media circus around him!! he has no education in the region, no understandings of the religious beliefs. no background in journalism nor objectivity.. nor in the politics nor knowledge of the players or the history, nor anything really. there are thousands of reporters unable to enter gaza, firstly they have no courage to go in and only select few are allowed in on invite. poor old joe has been on a whirlwind tour of isreal, visiting every bomb site, bombed school and he cannot say anything other something pro Israel.. suddenly the joe story is bigger than the war!

joe lacks complete objectivity and is looking pretty sad right now.. what an induction into journalism hey!!

Easy big fella, it was supposed to be a joke, and treated as such by the media. His logic (of not covering war, which he himself is covering) is hypocritical and stupid.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Geez what a pile of stereotypical tripe. Anybody with an opposing viewpoint is an 'extreme leftie' ?!? Mate I'm not the one wasting my days searching the web looking for anything to feed my fear of "evil terrorists".

You asked for a source did you not?
The translation is done by an independant tv company.

 

[cuttlefish]

You asked for a source did you not?
The translation is done by an independant tv company.

I did - but you've been posting numerous video's and links to all sorts of 'fear terrorists' stuff on these forums for quite a long time now - so that is what I was referring to.

I'd also appreciate it if you'd stop labelling anyone that offers a viewpoint that differs to yours an 'extreme leftie' and stereotyping their mindset. I'm not an 'extreme leftie' and I'm open to reasonable argument/debate and am capable of absorbing new information.

I regret entering this debate because I realise I probably don't have enough understanding of the issue to offer much decent input - the discussion has opened my eyes up to that. Some of the information posted has given me food for thought.

 

[lucas]

Don't go cuttlefish. I respect your right to an opinion. A partial refund is fine with me. Hold onto it. Before long we'll be doing a contra deal, I'm sure.

 

[cuttlefish]

Don't go cuttlefish. I respect your right to an opinion. A partial refund is fine with me. Hold onto it. Before long we'll be doing a contra deal, I'm sure.

LOL

 

[Agentm]

Easy big fella, it was supposed to be a joke, and treated as such by the media. His logic (of not covering war, which he himself is covering) is hypocritical and stupid.

not being critical of you at all mayk.. joe is a clown..

i think joe is just a massive joke, we see very little good quality objective journalism, the war is hell and we shouldnt be reporting it is just a reflection of himself swimming in a sea of confusion.

this conflict is indeed a very fatal one, imho hamas has underestimated the lack of support from thee arab world, not one border in israel is under threat now, hamas is making their last stand alone, to the north the fighters are scared to act, too scared to fire upon israel the last time they started a war they lost it big time also. imho the victors will be the citizens of israel who wont be subject to cowards hiding in the urban centres behind civilians, women and children and blending in and running away to fight another day, they are simply misguided cowards firing rockets in the hope of a civilian dieing, but when it comes to the street fight, they are getting their arses kicked..

no one wants to see the people of gaza in this plight, least of all the israelis, its a victory for israel that will be hollow and full of sorrow. and incredible damage and despair. but when you raise arms against another, are you expected to stand down year in year out as the rockets come through by the hundreds? hamas has played its hand, now it has to fully understand the victors of this war will not be hamas, the arabs have turned their backs on them and left them alone in the fight..

to the people of gaza i feel the most sadness of all.. what is being done to them by their leaders, the decisions to fight a war that can never be won..

i cant imagine how terrifying it must be for a child in gaza right now.. if hamas did not have the determination to see this happen then this outcome could have been avoided, but right now there is nothing that can prevent the israelis from achieving their objectives in the military sense.

why the UN is not running ships into gaza and getting the children out is beyond me, but in the region there are safe havens for civilains.. but certainly not enough to help all..

 

[mayk]

Some interesting articles, albeit from lefties



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-heffernan/memo-to-israel-why-not-tr_b_157545.html

But let's have a reality check here. Whatever Hamas says, it can no more annihilate Israel than a mouse can crush a tiger. Compared to Israeli firepower, Hamas' rockets might as well be pea shooters. And even as Israel insists that it has no intention of re-occupying Gaza, its forces have--since long before the present war began--kept the region in a straight jacket, severely restricting its people's freedom to move, blocking its exits and trade routes, pinching its access to imported goods of all kinds--not just weapons, but food and medicine. Whatever Israel says of its intentions, it has been steadfastly denying Gazans the right to exist as a people in charge of themselves.

And that is why people like Olfat Jaawanah, Gazan mother of nine, will go on supporting Hamas and its rockets. And also why Israeli forces cannot stop those rockets by killing alone.

So here's a radical proposal for Israel: shelve your sticks and bring out carrots.

What do I mean by carrots? I mean, for a start, gradually lifting the blockades that provoked the rockets in the first place and then launching a systematic exchange of small concessions for each day--and I mean each DAY--of peace.

If Israel wants to stop those rockets, it must start to do the unthinkable. It must start treating Hamas as a partner for peace, as a party that not only shoots rockets but also furnishes vital services--such as hospitals and schools--to the people of Gaza. It must start talking to Ismael Haniya. It must start REWARDING Hamas for every single day of rocket-free skies over Israel. In return for each day of peace, it must start making life progressively easier for the people of Gaza and thus giving them ever more powerful reasons to keep the peace. Above all, it must stop all new building in the occupied territories and start serious negotiations--directly with Hamas as well as Fatah--on plans for withdrawal.

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery01122009.html

How Many Divisions?
The Blood-Stained Monster Enters Gaza

By URI AVNERY

War – every war – is the realm of lies. Whether called propaganda or psychological warfare, everybody accepts that it is right to lie for one’s country. Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor.

The trouble is that propaganda is most convincing for the propagandist himself. And after you convince yourself that a lie is the truth and falsification reality, you can no longer make rational decisions.

An example of this process surrounds the most shocking atrocity of this war so far: the shelling of the UN Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp.

Immediately after the incident became known throughout the world, the army “revealed” that Hamas fighters had been firing mortars from near the school entrance. As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.

Later the official liar claimed that “our soldiers were shot at from inside the school”. Barely a day passed before the army had to admit to UN personnel that that was a lie, too. Nobody had shot from inside the school, no Hamas fighters were inside the school, which was full of terrified refugees.

But the admission made hardly any difference anymore. By that time, the Israeli public was completely convinced that “they shot from inside the school”, and TV announcers stated this as a simple fact.

So it went with the other atrocities. Every baby metamorphosed, in the act of dying, into a Hamas terrorist. Every bombed mosque instantly became a Hamas base, every apartment building an arms cache, every school a terror command post, every civilian government building a “symbol of Hamas rule”. Thus the Israeli army retained its purity as the “most moral army in the world”.

 

[gordon2007]

If Israel wants to stop those rockets, it must start to do the unthinkable. It must start treating Hamas as a partner for peace,

How would you propose to treat someone as a peace partner when they (hamas) has stated over and over again they do not want peace, they want the total annilation of israel and it's people?

I do think the carrot system has some good merits if, and only if hamas agrees to recognise israel and agrees they have a right to live there. I also think somehow they need to get iran involved and to get iran to accept these same priciples.

 

[mayk]

How would you propose to treat someone as a peace partner when they (hamas) has stated over and over again they do not want peace, they want the total annilation of israel and it's people?

Here is the answer from the same article

Let's face a political fact. Given the straight jacket that Israel has imposed on Gaza, no Palestinian leader who publicly accepts Israel's right to exist can prevail. The more Mahmoud Abbas befriends Israel, the more he sinks in the eyes of his own people. That is why Israel must embrace a paradox: it must negotiate with a party that officially denies its right to exist. Practically speaking, it cannot demand renunciation of that denial as a pre-condition of negotiations.

But which is more important: what Hamas says, or what it does? If Hamas stops the rockets and ends suicide bombings in Israel, what do their words matter? Why should anyone fear these paper bullets of the brain? So long as they are willing to negotiate, to trade days of rocket-free skies for days of blockade-free roads, why not let them say anything they want? The name of the game here is changing what they DO. So long as they can be led to behave AS IF they accepted Israel's right to exist, what they say will not matter.
So long as our hands are tied to policies and assumptions that have repeatedly failed to do anything but prolong the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, we will never end it. To forge peace between them, we need nothing less than the audacity of hope.

 

[rowie]

Hamas uses women, children and non-military personel as human shields. They are commiting war crimes and refuse to accept peace with Israel or Judaism in the region. They have stated that they love death like the Israelis love life. Considering that this is the case i am baffled as to why the west fall for the sympathy propaganda which only strenthens Hamas and others like them. Property is used as the reason but it is not the only thing.

Load of hogwash crap. No justifying this massacre now amounting to 1000 dead, 1/3 kids. Hamas using them as shields, enough of this garbage already!!! How in the world do you shield against white phosphorous a chemical weapon huh?? Geez open your eyes and see it for what it is! An inhumane massacre!

 

[rowie]

How would you propose to treat someone as a peace partner when they (hamas) has stated over and over again they do not want peace, they want the total annilation of israel and it's people?

I do think the carrot system has some good merits if, and only if hamas agrees to recognise israel and agrees they have a right to live there. I also think somehow they need to get iran involved and to get iran to accept these same priciples.

Hamas has time and time again agreed to a 10 year peace truce - read up about it and you will find out. They have proposed a 2 party state many times in the past.

 

[rowie]

I dont think children make good shields against Israeli fire anyway. In fact, they seem to attract more firepower. Hamas would have learnt quite sometime ago that using children as shields against israel is a futile exercise considering a third of kids have already been slaughtered!! Wow, what great shields they make!!! Hamas fighter - Hang on, lets hole up in this UN protected school with a whole bunch of women and children and fire from here so we dont get fired back from Israel. Holy crap, they dont seem to care, they have just bombarded 3 UN protected schools filled to the brim with women and children!!!! Do you think they would have learnt that this would not work? Duh!!

 

[mayk]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7818122.stm

Gaza 'human shields' criticised
Israeli soldiers in a Palestinian house
Homes have been taken over and residents forced to stay, Amnesty says

Amnesty International has accused Israel and Hamas of endangering civilian lives in the conflict in Gaza, including the use of "human shields".

'Illegitimate targets'

Amnesty also criticised Israeli forces for bombing civilian homes after they had been used to launch militant attacks when the attackers had probably fled.

"The army is well aware gunmen usually leave the area after having fired and any reprisal attack against these homes will in most cases cause harm to civilians - not gunmen," said Mr Smart, director of the Middle East and North Africa Programme.

He stressed that even if either side did carry out attacks from civilian buildings it did not make the buildings or inhabitants legitimate military targets.

"The use of these tactics at a time when armed confrontations are taking place in streets in the middle of densely-populated residential areas underlines the failure of both sides to respect the protected status of civilians in armed conflict," Mr Smart added.

In several well-documented cases in the past, Israeli troops have forced Palestinian civilians, at gunpoint, to go before them into buildings from which they feared attack.

Israeli judges banned the practice in 2005, but Amnesty says troops "frequently" imprison Palestinian families in homes used as military observation and firing positions.

Smoke and mirrors as they say. Chinese philosopher figured that out 2500 years ago, all warfare is based on deception.

 

[gordon2007]

No justifying this massacre now amounting to 1000 dead, 1/3 kids.

Yes, the amount of dead is a huge. Again, death is death, wether it's 10 or 1000. However, I don't see it as fair to just count the dead this time around. What about the total sum? What about munich olympics? What about all those planes hijacked? What about the years and years of innocent israelis killed in in bombings around the world? What about the embassies in other countries that are bombed, and killing not even israelis, but just local people earning an innocent living?

It's too easy to just say this time around the massive. Add the years up.

 

[lucky milo]

Yes, the amount of dead is a huge. Again, death is death, wether it's 10 or 1000. However, I don't see it as fair to just count the dead this time around. What about the total sum? What about munich olympics? What about all those planes hijacked? What about the years and years of innocent israelis killed in in bombings around the world? What about the embassies in other countries that are bombed, and killing not even israelis, but just local people earning an innocent living?

It's too easy to just say this time around the massive. Add the years up.

yeah add them up & you'll see that for every Israeli killed 20 Palestinians die..
and what innocent Israelis around the world?? Are you saying all those kids & civilians are guilty???...or are u really just jewish

 

[lucas]

But which is more important: what Hamas says, or what it does? If Hamas stops the rockets and ends suicide bombings in Israel, what do their words matter? Why should anyone fear these paper bullets of the brain?

I don't think I have read a more forlorn argument for one "side" yet.

It's as if you allow the Nuremburg rallies in the hope that Poland won't follow.

Kids have to apologise first, then act out the behaviour. You don't allow them to continue to scream abuse and cross your fingers.

Whoever wrote that twaddle is beyond a twit.