Israel in the Gaza Strip

[chops_a_must]

OK - so you don't know. I'm asking if others do. So why invent "Palestine has always existed" unless you really know?

Huh???

You can't make land suddenly exist, you can only change the names. I certainly didn't invent that Palestine has always existed bud - to the Phillistines (in the original area), hence the name, so please don't accuse me of such things.

"The name and the borders of Palestine have varied throughout history, though Palestine has certain natural boundaries that justify its historical individuality.[5] Other terms that have been used to refer to all or part of this area include Arabistan, Canaan, Greater Israel, Greater Syria, the Holy Land, Iudaea Province, Israel, "Israel HaShlema", Kingdom of Israel, Kingdom of Jerusalem, Land of Israel, Levant, Retenu (Ancient Egyptian), Southern Syria, and Syria Palestina."

Like I said, it became a generic term for the various kingdoms in the land mass.

 

[rowie]

Not sure what your point is...

Palestine has always "existed". AFAIK it referred to what is now generally the Gaza Strip now, but is now just a generic term for what were many various kingdoms over time.

But yeah, Hadrian did put down hundreds of thousands of Jews after occupation and suppression and their retaliation and murder of many many Romans. The irony is not lost on me.

Anyway, this footage isn't for the faint of heart, i.e. it has footage of a kid dying:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/01/07/ac.nasr.gaza.arab.viewers.cnn

Chops, I have just returned from a holiday in Malaysia where they show Al Jazeera news. Al Jazeera has actually expanded considerably over the years and have headquarters all around the world - their news reporters and readers are of nationalities from all over the world, America and Britain included. (From what I understand Al Arabiya has a far more biased view) The images and news reporting you get from the war is unlike anything we see here in the west. You really get a sense of how CNN/BBC 'water down' the news of this war. You get reports direct from hospitals in Gaza as well as imbedded journalists in parts of Gaza,pretty graphic stuff. The stuff aint made up. You get journalists reporting from Jerusalem and Tel Aviv with responses from the govt there.
Of course there will be those reading this thread who will argue the obvious that it is Arab propoganda. But the horror of war should be shown as it is.

 

[rowie]

Another factor to consider is that Western journalists in general are not allowed into Gaza and hence dont have access to report the news that Al Jazeera have.

 

[chops_a_must]

Of course there will be those reading this thread who will argue the obvious that it is Arab propoganda. But the horror of war should be shown as it is.

I agree.

There are too many here living in a dream world, that don't seem to be aware of what the reality of war is - thinking it is a sanitised, precise display. I don't care for the propaganda. Watching a kid die speaks for itself. It is what it is.

If we had those images on our screens every night, I'd like to see our society's reaction. It is very much like how our news reports were, when it came to the WTC attacks, and Bali.

 

[The Muffin Man]

If my country was the continual target of the rockets fired from a bordering neighbour I would consider this an act of war from my neighbour.

I am not sure I understand why some on here are calling a response to an act of war as 'disproportionate.'

Does Israel need to wait until some Hamas rockets kill mass amounts of Israeli citizens before they can respond with force so that the response is then not labelled 'disproportionate?' That does not make sense to me.

If my country was subject to continual rocket attacks from my neighbour, and my country had the more well trained and better equiped army, I would not expect my country to employ some kind of tit for tat response. That would defeat the purpose of having the stronger army. I would expect a response that ensured that these rocket attacks are stopped. If your country falls under constant attack, you don't sit around waiting until these attacks kill a greater number of your citizens in an attempt to legitimize a heavy handed response. You remove those perpetrating the threat with minimal casualties on your side. If Hamas had such weaponry available to them, I am positive they would be using it.

I still don't get this arguement about how Israel is worse because it has killed more people. I keep hearing people add up Israeli casualties and compare them to Palestinian/Hamas casualties and use this figure to determine something? Or legitimise one side of the conflict but attack the other? Are we now punishing the side with greater firepower and ability to strike? Just because Hamas rockets are more inacurate should not mean that they are allowed to fire into Israeli territory indiscriminately and without response. If Israel considers these attacks akin to acts of war then they should respond by mobilising all of their available forces and use them to eliminate the threats. I don't see why any other response but this would be called for. The whole point of having one of the World's most advanced armies is to be able to deploy it when your country comes under attack. What else should be expected as far as a response goes if rockets are fired into their country? It's an act of war and should be treated as such.

Do people expect Israel to keep a running score card of deaths on each side and only strike Hamas targets after a Hamas rocket attack kills a few more Israeli citizens and levels up the totals? What a silly and unrealistic arguement, and it would kind of defeat the purpose of Israel having such strong military capabilities. I know, should they both resort to only firing rockets and mortars indiscriminately into each others territory and then it would be fair? Very very silly. I don't get why some are beating up on Israel because they have superior firepower as if it is something they should not be using in an armed conflict.

 

[lucas]

Hey! It's cool not to know everything, right?

 

[noirua]

America and Europe urge Israel to pull back but really hope they'll knock the living daylights out of them. Thus, Obama and Europe will be able to concentrate on Afghanistan and their economies.
In other words. They want to be seen to care.

 

[rowie]

Are we now punishing the side with greater firepower and ability to strike?

Do people expect Israel to keep a running score card of deaths on each side and only strike Hamas targets after a Hamas rocket attack kills a few more Israeli citizens and levels up the totals? What a silly and unrealistic arguement, and it would kind of defeat the purpose of Israel having such strong military capabilities. I know, should they both resort to only firing rockets and mortars indiscriminately into each others territory and then it would be fair? Very very silly. I don't get why some are beating up on Israel because they have superior firepower as if it is something they should not be using in an armed conflict.

Quite the contrary, what the stats do show is that the side with the greater firepower is using its might to punish and brutalize the palestinian population indiscriminately. That is the purpose in showing these stats.

I have no objections whatsoever to an army responding to threats to its people with equal or greater force, hence inflicting greater casualties. Like u say, casualty rates should not be a gauge of who is right or wrong. However, if that army with superior firepower and total weapon domination is using its strength to occupy, imprison, brutalize and torment a whole nation of people and then expect no retaliation, and when that brutalized people do retaliate to their unlawful occupation, and have the mightier country smash them into submission - thats what i have a problem with.

Please understand that the stats only show who is mightier and provide a hint of who the oppressors are. In this case it is very clear.

 

[rowie]

I still don't get this arguement about how Israel is worse because it has killed more people. I keep hearing people add up Israeli casualties and compare them to Palestinian/Hamas casualties and use this figure to determine something? Or legitimise one side of the conflict but attack the other? Are we now punishing the side with greater firepower and ability to strike? Just because Hamas rockets are more inacurate should not mean that they are allowed to fire into Israeli territory indiscriminately and without response. If Israel considers these attacks akin to acts of war then they should respond by mobilising all of their available forces and use them to eliminate the threats. I don't see why any other response but this would be called for. The whole point of having one of the World's most advanced armies is to be able to deploy it when your country comes under attack. What else should be expected as far as a response goes if rockets are fired into their country? It's an act of war and should be treated as such.

Muffin Man, do you not see that there is something fundamentally wrong with the fact that for every 1 israeli kid that is killed, 10 palestinian children are killed at the hands of the israeli defence force? How do you reason that the stats dont really matter? Do you not see what kind of hatred this engenders in the population and that it is this brutality that is in fact fueling further future conflicts and actions of revenge? Isnt it obvious from these stats that one side is trying to beat the other into submission? Could it also be because the powerful side is beating the weaker into submission that perhaps the weaker is going to retaliate? Have you considered that the palestinians are not filled with blind hatred rather are fighting against their continued oppression and occupation? Fighting against living in their prison that is Gaza with little or no electricity, clean water, within a healthcare system which is operating under third world conditions due to an embargo? Do you not see that it is only natural for a people to fight back under these conditions especially when they are in such close proximity to their 1st world neighbours who live in conditions much like australia. Please dont respond that it is all their fault, because it is not!

 

[nick2fish]

I have no objections whatsoever to an army responding to threats to its people with equal or greater force, hence inflicting greater casualties. Like u say, casualty rates should not be a gauge of who is right or wrong. However, if that army with superior firepower and total weapon domination is using its strength to occupy, imprison, brutalize and torment a whole nation of people and then expect no retaliation, and when that brutalized people do retaliate to their unlawful occupation, and have the mightier country smash them into submission - thats what i have a problem with.

Please understand that the stats only show who is mightier and provide a hint of who the oppressors are. In this case it is very clear.

This is what I don't like. Gross Exaggeration

Occupy ...Rubbish it is a search and destroy mission to quell Hamas attacks

Imprison...Members of Hamas yes Citizens of Gaza no

Brutalize... Yeah war is a bit like that which is why it is a last resort for most civilized countries Israel included

Torment... That is not Israels goal at all and they will be out of there as soon as the rocket attacks on them stop

The fact that civilians are dieing should be as much a concern for Hamas as it should be for Israel.

Remember it Hamas has the power to stop this as well !!!!!

 

[lucas]

Huh???

You can't make land suddenly exist, you can only change the names. I certainly didn't invent that Palestine has always existed bud

I don't know how many noggy days you have left, but do you want to make the best of them?

Come on...why not be as interested in learning as much as knowing? Hey, I was once as stupid as you too! And I'm still dumb. It's not so bad.

Why the desperate need to solve these idiots' problems? I mean it. Get a nice wife and **** the world and her if you have the ability. Take my word for it, that is much harder that any of this Middle East crap.

 

[rowie]

This is what I don't like. Gross Exaggeration

Occupy ...Rubbish it is a search and destroy mission to quell Hamas attacks

Imprison...Members of Hamas yes Citizens of Gaza no

Brutalize... Yeah war is a bit like that which is why it is a last resort for most civilized countries Israel included

Torment... That is not Israels goal at all and they will be out of there as soon as the rocket attacks on them stop

The fact that civilians are dieing should be as much a concern for Hamas as it should be for Israel.

Remember it Hamas has the power to stop this as well !!!!!

Mate, if you are unaware that the palestinians are under occupation, then I really have no response for you. That is why they are commonly referred to as the 'Occupied Territories'. I am not talking about the latest war here but the conditions that palestinians have been living in for the past half a century or so. For your information, they have never left Gaza!!! Incursions, bombings, shootings, a complete and crippling embargo has been placed on Gazans for years (yes even medical supplies are denied entry). Theyre water and electricity supplies have been taken out many times over: I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RECENT ATTACKS BUT WAS HAS BEEN IMPOSED ON GAZANS FOR DECADES! They have been brutalized, tormented and imprisoned make no mistake about that.

 

[lucas]

rowie, you never did grow up did you?

If you want to, revisit the previous posts.

 

[fringedweller1]

Hi all, i am new to this forum
...........Aussie stock forum I believe the name was!
When I read the title of this thread I mistakenly believe someone might actually be talking about how the conflicts will affect oil prices and what fellow investors think. Hmmmmm.

Hey while I am here do as the locals do!
When did it become against morals to invade another country?
• Was it when the Romans conquered all before them?
Maybe conquests became illegal after the exploits of the French, The Dutch, the Normans and the Egyptians. Or hears a thought......
• Was it when khan slaughtered thousands of simple people in his adventures?
• Was it when the Spanish stopped seeking new worlds?
• Was it when the Spanish finished squashing the Natives of South America?
• Was it when the English finished spilling blood in the pacific, Africa and or North America?

Maybe Now that the “western so called civilised world” controls the economic and production power over the entire planet....... we decided this conquering is now Stupid, wrong, illegal, immoral and therefore must end... Bravo ….

Have we really forgotten for thousands upon thousands of years all the celebrated greats from Normandy, Asia, Europe, Arab nations and Africa did conquered, slaughtered, raped, burned, behead enslave and pillage mostly everything in their path.

Without this happening I certainly wouldn’t be here..... As my Danish ancestors done a bit of conquering themselves, and I seriously would have hated history lessons at school if it didn’t have the blood and guts....

So come on Israel get the hell in there and create some more history

I don’t think you Saudi’s should be spectators either, nor should the Iranians or the Egyptians you need to support you Arab brothers ....... come go for it!!!
You are all just creating history that’s all

But this leads me back to my opening statement, “oil Prices"
Watch them soar... Go you good thing!!! I new you guy's could help me make money Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A million Barrels that is HEheeeeeHee

 

[lucas]

Cool...spot on...what the **** are we talking about?

I did try to ask what others thought about the future. But everyone's an expert about the past.

Hot tip? It's gonna get worse. Much, much worse because Iran has those hot baby nuke factories.

Suggest play against the likelihood of them being blown up.

 

[yobyn]

hamas using boy as human shield


http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=TejVJWSTTpY

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

I agree.

There are too many here living in a dream world, that don't seem to be aware of what the reality of war is - thinking it is a sanitised, precise display. I don't care for the propaganda. Watching a kid die speaks for itself. It is what it is.

If we had those images on our screens every night, I'd like to see our society's reaction. It is very much like how our news reports were, when it came to the WTC attacks, and Bali.

I'll put you out of your misery (to borrow a line from red, thanks red I like that line) here is a video of Hamas using common property (non-military) to launch missiles and anti aircraft guns from and to store weapons. Note the secondary explosions as the stash blows up.

 

[yobyn]

One more

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=S2G1TZKerTo

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

This is an interesting story:

"Hamas is corrupt to the core"

 

[nick2fish]

Cheers Snake ...
"Whoever changes their religon...Kill him"

Puts into context exactly who we are dealing with.

I hope with all my heart that the innocents killed will be reborn into a better life..............