Israel in the Gaza Strip

[roland]

This is an amazing point. So you have an army bombing the hell out of a city and the ones to blame are the people sending their kids to school during this bombing campaign. What a twisted view on the matter. For Your Information Roland - no schools were in operation during this bombing campaign, people, children were camped in these schools as many of them are run by the UN and they were seeking shelter there rather than staying at home which is in theyre minds far riskier than staying at home and rightly so. Do you seriously believe that they intentionally were sending theyre kids to school to potentially be killed to elicit sympathy from the international community? This is a warped viewpoint - you are actually implying that these people are almost sub-human.

I wasn't making any conclusions on what people were doing. I was asking whether others would be doing something different.

There seems to be so many experts here on the area that seem to have intimate knowledge on gaza City and the people that I thought I would ask.

It's also not appreciated to try and guess what my viewpoint is, and then to make judgements against that guess. I reject your conclusions.

Carry On!

 

[chops_a_must]

It's yet to be determined why the UN school was attacked. Any fair-minded person would not leap to judgement before the attack was fully investigated.

Israel has already ruled out an independent investigation of it. Make of that what you will.

I don't see why it can't just be seen as a balls up. The UN gives co-ordinates of its centres to the IDF, so either Israel has verifiable evidence of why it attacked, or it borderlines a war crime and act of aggression against a neutral party if it doesn't, or isn't open and honest about it.

 

[lucas]

It is an horrendous statistic, rowie, you are right. It doesn't alter the understanding that you cannot draw out who is ultimately right and wrong from such a stat.

 

[chops_a_must]

Hamas is unable to inflict military defeat upon Israel, I think everyone can agree on that. Hamas will have victories, but the superior military will win the day. So I ask myself, what kind of victory can Hamas achieve? A victory based on perception of course. Try and paint the IDF and Israel as a whole as an evil monster that does nothing but bombard innocent civilians, and you get international condemnation and a whirlwind of hatred towards Israel. A very good strategy. How would one go about painting Israel as such a monster?

Rejecting a viable peace strategy is a far greater negative for Israel.

Hamas has proposed a return to 1967 borders as a basis for the Palestinian state, and an end to the war... just as just about every peace proposal has.

Peace is there for the taking if Israel actually want it bad enough.

 

[rowie]

It is an horrendous statistic, rowie, you are right. It doesn't alter the understanding that you cannot draw out who is ultimately right and wrong from such a stat.

You are right that you cant draw based on these stats who is right and wrong. Clearly this can be determined by looking at the fact that the Palestinians are under occupation and control and that land that is rightfully theirs has been taken away from them. And every UN resolution since 1967 recognises this and recognises the right for palestinians to claim this land. And yet Israel does not comply and in fact takes more land. Simple enough to conclude who is right and wrong.

 

[lucas]

rowie, it all sounds fair and reasonable up until the point where you decide one side is right and the other is wrong.

What will it take for you to see that THIS attitude IS the problem? Even if you were correct, and there is ample evidence that you are not, but even if you were, what hope do you give the "wrong" side capitulating and saying political sorry? Or making concessions they are unwilling to make already?

It is inane to consider that this will happen.

The Vietnam War ended not because one side was right or wrong, but because one side lost. Is that what you want in this war? Israel cannot lose this war or they cease to exist. That is one reason they are so intransigent.

The only hope is for an immediate ceasefire, and more dialogue.

 

[Uncle Festivus]

Neither side is innocent here, but the Israelis seem to be selecting military targets based on some sort of intelligence. Hamas seem to be firing rockets TOTALLY indiscimanetly into civilian targets.

That is where the difference lies in this conflict.

One is a military organisation conducting war according to the Geneva Conventions. (From what I've seen)

One is a declared terrorist organisation.

A bit biased there perhaps. Who declares terrorist organisations anyway? One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter?

What would you do if a group of people decided, without consulting you, that your house and suburb would become a religious enclave/state, and you were required to obtain permission to go to your job, visit relatives etc all the while being denied basic human services. At some stage you would decide to do something about it, probably after the invaders had just shot your parents/relatives for trying to get food.

And the toll so far - 600 Palestinians to 10 Israeli's (2 from friendly fire) - is that part of the Geneva convention, to commit a slow genocide then smash them with superior military power?

Israel has seen the writing on the wall, and that their support base is slowly being undermined by the global recession.

It's hardly an even battle is it? A population subject to slow genocide by an invading army backed by the most powerful country on earth. If there is one consolation from the global financial crisis is that the Jewish power base in the US will also be severely diminished in it's influence over foreign policy. Israel is already bankrupt, & relies solely on the US and allies for it's existence. I am ashamed that my government also has been a party to Israel's continued legitimacy - they certainly don't speak on my behalf.

You are right that you cant draw based on these stats who is right and wrong. Clearly this can be determined by looking at the fact that the Palestinians are under occupation and control and that land that is rightfully theirs has been taken away from them. And every UN resolution since 1967 recognises this and recognises the right for palestinians to claim this land. And yet Israel does not comply and in fact takes more land. Simple enough to conclude who is right and wrong.

Correct & to the point - it is incumbent upon Israel, the invading aggressors, to realise that it is they who are required to yeild for peace.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Interesting that the Israelis know everything that goes on in Gaza....definitive info on human shields ,arms cachments...but were never able to stop militants firing rockets.
Maybe their information falls well short of their propaganda?
If we want any info on human shields it would have to come from an independent source eg the UN...certainly not from Israelis.
They have,and do,use any tactic to justify their slaughter.

I believe it is reasonable to understand that information can be gathered without the ability to physically stop that which is known. So it seems they are now stopping it as they have every right to.
Here is what happened as a result of the info gathering:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129273

Hamas Executes Gaza Residents for Helping Israel

 

[tigerboi]

Re:Time to take of the rose coloured glasses people

The only hope is for an immediate ceasefire, and more dialogue.

some of you people are unreal...take your rose coloured glasses off...

what you have is a islamic militia 50% voted by the gazans,then they took over in a coup...intent is obvious.holding the population to ransom.

hamas will never reounounce violence & do not recognise israel...

anyone who thinks dialogue & smoking the peace pipe between these 2 will solve the problems is deluding themselves...big time

in the long run the israelis are doing the gazans a huge favour...getting rid of these gangsters...& dont start this wasis bs as this has got nothing to do with race its all about idealolgy race means not a thing...any ceasefire will only give hamas time to regroup now Is the time to crush them for good...tb

 

[rowie]

Re: Time to take of the rose coloured glasses people

some of you people are unreal...take your rose coloured glasses off...

what you have is a islamic militia 50% voted by the gazans,then they took over in a coup...intent is obvious.holding the population to ransom.

hamas will never reounounce violence & do not recognise israel...

anyone who thinks dialogue & smoking the peace pipe between these 2 will solve the problems is deluding themselves...big time

in the long run the israelis are doing the gazans a huge favour...getting rid of these gangsters...& dont start this wasis bs as this has got nothing to do with race its all about idealolgy race means not a thing...any ceasefire will only give hamas time to regroup now Is the time to crush them for good...tb

In the 2006 elections, Hamas actually won 74 seats to Fatahs 45. It was accurately considered a landslide victory for Hamas. So please check your facts and make an informed comment with accurate information. It is misleading otherwise. Hamas has alot of support as they spend a large portion of their annual budget (which isnt much) on various social welfare and education programmes within the occupied territories. Further, Hamas are well regarded by Palestinians for its efficiency and perceived lack of corruption compared to Fatah. So please dont paint an inaccurate picture by saying they are a bunch of gangsters, it is totally inaccurate.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Re: Time to take of the rose coloured glasses people

In the 2006 elections, Hamas actually won 74 seats to Fatahs 45. It was accurately considered a landslide victory for Hamas. So please check your facts and make an informed comment with accurate information. It is misleading otherwise. Hamas has alot of support as they spend a large portion of their annual budget (which isnt much) on various social welfare and education programmes within the occupied territories. Further, Hamas are well regarded by Palestinians for its efficiency and perceived lack of corruption compared to Fatah. So please dont paint an inaccurate picture by saying they are a bunch of gangsters, it is totally inaccurate.

Hello rowie,

With respect to the education programmes to what extent is the teaching of peace and tolerance part of the curriculum? And on child abuse and war crimes perpetrated by Hamas (where is the left, have they gone silent on real issues?) to what extent is that not part of the curriculum in their education programmes?
I'll draw your attention to child abuse in Hamas land:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=JhVDwrfoTOg

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=s70KlZwb9RE&feature=related

 

[tigerboi]

Re: Time to take of the rose coloured glasses people

rowie...you make me laugh!excuse me ill just amend that 50% to 50%+ will i?

as i said...get real & take the rose coloured glasses off.have a real good hard look at the problem instead of the usual propaganda getting put about.

well regarded,social welfare etc...your embarrassing yourself,take a val & have a lay down...actually make that a rowie

some of you people are unreal...take your rose coloured glasses off...

what you have is a islamic militia 50% voted by the gazans,then they took over in a coup...intent is obvious.holding the population to ransom.

hamas will never reounounce violence & do not recognise israel...

anyone who thinks dialogue & smoking the peace pipe between these 2 will solve the problems is deluding themselves...big time

in the long run the israelis are doing the gazans a huge favour...getting rid of these gangsters...& dont start this wasis bs as this has got nothing to do with race its all about idealolgy race means not a thing...any ceasefire will only give hamas time to regroup now Is the time to crush them for good...tb

 

[lucas]

Cute dog.

All wars end in dialogue. The least damaging are those which start earlier.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Re: Time to take of the rose coloured glasses people

Hello rowie,

With respect to the education programmes to what extent is the teaching of peace and tolerance part of the curriculum? And on child abuse and war crimes perpetrated by Hamas (where is the left, have they gone silent on real issues?) to what extent is that not part of the curriculum in their education programmes?
I'll draw your attention to child abuse in Hamas land:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=JhVDwrfoTOg

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=s70KlZwb9RE&feature=related

The education continues:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=FsuF1it68tg&feature=related
A bee replaces the mouse.

 

[rowie]

Re: Time to take of the rose coloured glasses people

rowie...you make me laugh!excuse me ill just amend that 50% to 50%+ will i?

as i said...get real & take the rose coloured glasses off.have a real good hard look at the problem instead of the usual propaganda getting put about.

well regarded,social welfare etc...your embarrassing yourself,take a val & have a lay down...actually make that a rowie

Your a joke who clearly is ill informed or has not taken the time or effort to educate yourself. The only one wearing glasses that is warping your viewpoint is you. Propoganda - seems the one swallowing it hook line and sinker is you. Get informed on the issues and facts first, dont bother otherwise. You and your rose coloured glasses...pffft.

 

[tigerboi]

explain this rowie

 

[disarray]

Re: Time to take of the rose coloured glasses people

Get informed on the issues and facts first, dont bother otherwise.

whose issues and facts? just the ones that suit your perception?

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Re: Time to take of the rose coloured glasses people

Your a joke who clearly is ill informed or has not taken the time or effort to educate yourself. The only one wearing glasses that is warping your viewpoint is you. Propoganda - seems the one swallowing it hook line and sinker is you. Get informed on the issues and facts first, dont bother otherwise. You and your rose coloured glasses...pffft.

This video from Youtube shall show what is informative:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=pJDNXztFmS0&feature=related

 

[tigerboi]

and this...what a sick joke... & thx to snake for the links...

 

[chops_a_must]

What will it take for you to see that THIS attitude IS the problem? Even if you were correct, and there is ample evidence that you are not, but even if you were, what hope do you give the "wrong" side capitulating and saying political sorry? Or making concessions they are unwilling to make already?

The Vietnam War ended not because one side was right or wrong, but because one side lost. Is that what you want in this war? Israel cannot lose this war or they cease to exist. That is one reason they are so intransigent.

No. That is the problematic attitude.

If they honour the 1967 borders, I doubt a lot of this would be an issue.

And to the other videos... I mean... there are things on both sides just as evil.