The Australian Greens party

[Calliope]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

AAhh brother nice post

AAhh I can see a same sex union on the horizon. Good luck to you both. It is the Green's top priority.

 

[drsmith]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

In the film 'Children of the Revolution" Judy Davis's characters child, is talked about worryingly by its teacher as "having Ideas"... It's the Ideas that worry you guys isn't it , and your inability to intellectually in-gauge with them, so you label it 'Radical' 'Socialist' so you can put it in a box so it's not so scary.'

I'll suggest another story.

Animal Farm.

 

[bandicoot76]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I'll suggest another story.

Animal Farm.

or 1984

 

[IFocus]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I'll suggest another story.

Animal Farm.

or 1984

You gents would be talking about bankers I take it.............

 

[orr]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I'll suggest another story.

Animal Farm.

Presuming we're talking about the same book/film, Your suggesting that the Australian populace will be incited to violent revolution by an intellectual clique, with the promise of a release from authoritarian persecution, only to end up in a situation as bad if not worst than their current predicament, as the ruling clique become our tyrannical overlords.
Doctor, I can only hope that your on medication not prescribing it. Paranoid delusions of this scale are in need of treatment
And just for the record, Nail your colours to the mast and state just so we know, That the flooding of Lake Pedder was a good Idea. Where not talking about the draining of it as Smurf wants to obfuscate.
Because Pedder was important, it was "A Bridge Too Far"

Oh and that homophobic reflex calliope, It's telling. You might want to sit through 'Romper Stomper" with someone capable of explaining some of that pertinent simple subtext.

 

[drsmith]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

No.

Just that socialism/communism doesn't work.

It goes against against our natural competitiveness (natural selection).

 

[Smurf1976]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

That the flooding of Lake Pedder was a good Idea. Where not talking about the draining of it as Smurf wants to obfuscate.
Because Pedder was important, it was "A Bridge To Far"

Given the efforts of those who want to do exactly that, drain it, over the years I'd say my point is entirely relevant and not obfuscating anything.

You have a group formed to push the cause and which is supported by many of the usual suspects. They have current paid advertising etc. Given that it's already flooded and can't be flooded twice, any current debate about it necessarily focuses on one of three outcomes:

1. Do nothing (leave as part of Gordon power scheme)
2. Drain the lake and construct a pumping scheme from Serpentine Dam, plus a new dam much further down the Huon River.
3. Drain the lake and substitute lost production with, in practice, coal and gas.

Given that those supporting draining it seem generally unwilling to support the construction of any new large dam anywhere, option 3 is what they are effectively arguing for. More coal and gas and it's worth noting that Bob Brown himself acknowledged this some years ago, going as far as to defend coal in the process (very widely reported in Tas local media at the time).

Personally, given the choice I would not flood that lake. I would however build a dam lower on the Huon River, divert flow from the Serpentine River into Lake Gordon via a pondage and pumping scheme, and build another dam further down the Gordon within the World Herritage Area but not in any way affecting the Franklin. All up, that would add greatly to energy production plus plus the original Lake Pedder would not be flooded either. An environmental win on two counts and an economic win also.

The trouble is, of course, that the Greens and their predecessors ensured that the WHA was proclaimed specifically so as to encompass every possible dam site, even one that couldn't possibly be regarded as being of conservation value given its close proximity to another dam that's already been built upstream.

For the record, the Hydro itself quite some years ago installed a number of signs which acknowledge the case against damming Pedder. These are on the foreshore of the enlarged lake and are there for the sole purpose of presenting the other side of the argument to visitors.

Now, please tell me when the Greens have ever acknowledged arguments in favour of dams, mines, mills or anything else they oppose? Just one example will do... I think you'll find there's far more willingness to be objective from those on the other side.

Anyway, now that Tasmania is virtually bankrupt and has little remaining in terms of an economic base I'd like to know what the Greens plan to do about it? They're part of the government after all so it is their problem. Or are they happy to stand aside as the health system disintegrates, roads fall apart, police are sacked (and those that remain have their cars removed etc)? Three decades of effective Green control in Tasmania and the place has ended up a basket case - enough said.

Perhaps we could put a tax on everyone in Sydney and Melbourne who opposes development in other states without having a clue what is even being proposed? I wonder how many realise that the pulp mill site is next door to two smelters (one of which has been subject to opposition from Greens for the past 40 years), a port, saw mills etc? The Greens with their protests in other states would have people believe that it's being built in some sort of wilderness area or something like that. Clearly that's not the case, but never let the truth get in the way.

 

[wayneL]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Presuming we're talking about the same book/film, Your suggesting that the Australian populace will be incited to violent revolution by an intellectual clique, with the promise of a release from authoritarian persecution, only to end up in a situation as bad if not worst than their current predicament, as the ruling clique become our tyrannical overlords.
Doctor, I can only hope that your on medication not prescribing it. Paranoid delusions of this scale are in need of treatment
And just for the record, Nail your colours to the mast and state just so we know, That the flooding of Lake Pedder was a good Idea. Where not talking about the draining of it as Smurf wants to obfuscate.
Because Pedder was important, it was "A Bridge Too Far"

Oh and that homophobic reflex calliope, It's telling. You might want to sit through 'Romper Stomper" with someone capable of explaining some of that pertinent simple subtext.

When did people decide that smear was an acceptable first choice form of debate?

Steady on there orr, play the ball not the man.

 

[Calliope]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Oh and that homophobic reflex calliope, It's telling. You might want to sit through 'Romper Stomper" with someone capable of explaining some of that pertinent simple subtext.

Sorry. I thought you and Focus were Greenies.:remybussi

 

[orr]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

No one wants to have a go at the "bridge to Far" analogy for "lake Pedder".
It's importance, to the formation of what has become the green movement should be understood by people wanting to contribute anything worthwhile to this thread.
And to you Smurf, I appreciate your contributions. With regards Lake Pedder, It was an unnecessary defacement of beauty. And it was the prescience of some people in the community who recognized what was being lost and what they were up against that radicalized them. I for one can understand why they became 'Bolshie' about it. If it ever is drained it won't be done for economic or emissions reasons, It will be done to rectify a wrong, and only because there is a cost. Your punished so you don't make the same mistakes again.

To mr WayneL I was playing the ball, there was a quip at the man.

To bandi, How are you on "Down and out in Paris & London", anything underlined?

To calliope....why bother

 

[Smurf1976]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

If it ever is drained it won't be done for economic or emissions reasons, It will be done to rectify a wrong, and only because there is a cost. Your punished so you don't make the same mistakes again.

I politely suggest that the 2% of Australians who live in Tasmania have already paid a hugely disproportionate share of the cost of protecting Australia's natural wonders.

Imagine if the gas industry and the iron ore industry had been prevented from any development over the past 30 years in WA?

Or if no new office buildings had been allowed in Sydney over the same timeframe?

Or no new hotels on the Gold Coast and no new mines in the rest of Qld?

Tasmania has already spent a huge sum on environmental protection, arguably more than all other states combined, to the point that the state no longer has any real source of income other than handouts in one form or another.

If people in NSW, Vic or wherever want Pedder drained then let them pay for it. Either that or start protecting their own environment rather than the "warm and fuzzy" practice of leaving another state to foot the bill whilst NSW and Vic do nothing about their own massive environmental impacts.

How ironic that you can run certain industries in Vic or NSW with full support, but the very same activities are deemed too environmentally harmful to be carried out in Tasmania. Hmm... This seems to be a lot more about gaining economic advantage than about actually protecting the environment!

It wouldn't be hard to find someone in Tas who is decidedly angry at the situation. Other states develop their resources with scant regard to the environment. Other states have functioning public hospitals. Other states have jobs in productive industries etc. But try to develop any resource in Tas and then the Greens / Canberra gets in the way in order to buy votes in urban electorates in the other states.

The state is practically broke, literally so judging by the figures being thrown around, and yet still these ******** stand in the way of any and all developments which might actually help the situation. No wonder so many have already been driven out to pursue opportunities elsewhere.

Shut down the coal, iron ore and LNG industries, actually shut them down and suffer the economic consequences, and then I'll believe that the rest of the country is actually serious about the environment. In the meantime, Tasmania is simply an easy target for political reasons. Everyone gets to feel good about "doing something" whilst 2% of the population are left with an economy in tatters and the big mining states argue that they shouldn't pay the bill for everything that's been stopped in Tas over the past 30 years.

PS - In principle I'm morally opposed to handouts. But given that there is very little productive industry still remaining in Tas and that Greens have successfully locked up practically every opportunity there is, handouts are all that really remains as an option. If those living in the other states were forced to pay the cost then that would change the politics of the situation real fast.

 

[AbrasiveCamel]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

No.

Just that socialism/communism doesn't work.

It goes against against our natural competitiveness (natural selection).

Orwell was a radical socialist - both 1984 and Animal Farm were criticisms of the USSR, not socialism in general, and the introductory essay to Animal Farm, which was censored for half a century, basically said that the United Kingdom wasn't greatly different and would continue to head towards a similar authoritarian situation.

 

[explod]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

With thanks to Miranda Devine, a voice of sanity in NSW, quoting her father Frank Devine http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg.../from_the_vault_the_origins_of_the_green_rot/

"Based on the 10 per cent share [in 2004] of the national vote most opinion polls currently award the Greens, it is reasonable to wonder: As Tasmania has gone, so goes Australia?..

..These were the things Brown and Singer [in 1996] declared the Greens to be against:
Cars and highways: Trains and trams are okay but walking and cycling are best.
Dams and irrigation: The natural flow of rivers needs to be restored.
People having more money than the average person needs: Radical tax reform linked to a “guaranteed adequate income scheme” would fix that.
The World Trade Organisation and free trade: There should be no trade on even terms with countries whose industries sys*tematically damage the environment or which exploit labour.
The capitalist free market: Unregulated, it is a ruthless force “that sweeps aside all traditional ways of living that stand in the path of a relentless drive for profit”.
Too much work: The working day should be of six hours at most, and annual holidays doubled or trebled. This would eliminate unemployment and give everybody time with their families, and time to continue their education, go for walks and grow their gardens.
The United States: It’s a source of evil, from soap operas to greed.
Agribusiness: Keeping chickens and pigs in permanent indoor confinement should be banned, and cattle, sheep and other grazing animals removed from arid and semi*arid regions.
Psychotherapy: Needed now because people don’t believe in God but unnecessary when they embrace Green ethics.."

Thanks for posting up and a reminder that these ideas remain reasonable and achievable.

Since then however there is within the party increased emphasis on equality in education and the importance of all Government levels to increase funding in that direction.

 

[StumpyPhantom]

Re: The Greens have flexed their muscle over Gillard Labor, again

Let's just watch the Greens when Labor is cast adrift by the electorate.

Wth a huge mandate against the carbon tax, the Coalition repeal legislation fails in the Senate, blocked by the Greens and Labor.

Fast forward - double dissolution election based on carbon tax repeal - total decimation (again) for Labor, add Greens remnants to it.

This is harder than it sounds. Abbotts going to need the courage of, well, an abbott or maybe a Tibetan monk.

How long can they use the Parliament and the Constitution to defy the electorate?

 

[moXJO]

Everyone should support The Greens

Well in this instance we should support them anyway.

The rolling cattle and cropping country around Wandoan has become a battleground of the competing interests to produce wealth from mining, food from the land and to abate Australia's greenhouse contribution.

Caught in the middle are life-long farmers such as Pat Devlin, 61, who last night vowed to stay put after the Queensland Land Court ruled to allow multinational Xstrata to press on with the huge coalmine that will border his property. "We're going to sit it out right here," he said. "If they do start mining, we will be pushing as hard as we can to make sure they meet the environmental conditions . . . they are not going to shut us up."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/mining-energy/farmers-fight-mine-but-horse-has-bolted/story-e6frg9df-1226311867381

Now I could care less on the carbon side of things, but destroying food producing land that will benefit us long after the coal is gone is crazy. We don't benefit enough from the coal being shipped off overseas to justify destroying farmers rights and it seems like shooting ourselves in the foot when you look at it long term. We seem to be raping whatever land we can to squeeze more coal or ore out of it. Its bad enough we were building housing estates all over prime farmland.
I'm not saying all mining is bad, just that tighter restrictions in some areas should be enforced

 

[Calliope]

Re: Everyone should support the greens

Well in this instance we should support them anyway.

The Greens couldn't give a stuff about protecting arable land. They are manipulating the landholders to push their global warming agenda.

The case in the Land Court, brought by eight landholders including Mr Devlin and Mr Erbacher and backed by the Friends of the Earth conservation group, turned on the proposition that the mine should be stopped because of its climate change implications

.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...-1226311867381

 

[rumpole]

Re: Everyone should support The Greens

I'm not saying all mining is bad, just that tighter restrictions in some areas should be enforced

Agreed. Farming is forever , mining is eventually just a hole in the ground

 

[moXJO]

Re: Everyone should support the greens

The Greens couldn't give a stuff about protecting arable land. They are manipulating the landholders to push their global warming agenda.

.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...-1226311867381

It's obvious I don't like the greens, support their mantra or encourage anyone to vote for them. But something needs to be done about it and whatever ammo they have to use, so be it. At times you have to look past the political ideology of the group and support something that will in fact benefit the country in the long term. I'm sure even Alan Jones jumped into bed with them on this issue (not sure on that so don't quote me).

 

[Miss Hale]

Re: Everyone should support The Greens

Agreed. Farming is forever , mining is eventually just a hole in the ground

Mining is not forever though and once it is done in an area then the land can (and should) be returned to its former state. I know in gold mining areas this is the case, the miners have to return the land back to its original state.

 

[Miss Hale]

Re: Everyone should support the greens

It's obvious I don't like the greens, support their mantra or encourage anyone to vote for them. But something needs to be done about it and whatever ammo they have to use, so be it. At times you have to look past the political ideology of the group and support something that will in fact benefit the country in the long term. I'm sure even Alan Jones jumped into bed with them on this issue (not sure on that so don't quote me).

Alan Jones is definitely opposed to coal seam gas as are the Greens.