chops_a_must
Printing My Own Money
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Israel in the Gaza Strip
- Thread starter BradK
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Hey, as you say, lets embrace today. We, the entrenched Christian Right, control the wealth and the power. We conveniently forget that we shat on the peoples of the world, and dressed it up as 'God's will', to get where we are. This the beauty of the cult of religion - you can say anything is God's will.
Unless you understand how we got here, and which noses we put out of joint to get here, then we will get nowhere fast.
There are differences in accents/dialects - much like the difference between australian/english/british english accents. However there are also differences in the way some words are spelt and pronounced entirely. My understanding of arabic is not crash hot but I do understand the egyptian accent when it is spoken - Its not too hard to differentiate from 'classical' arabic. Most will understand it too as egyptian music and movies are popular and well watched by other arab speaking countries.
All arab countries speak arabic in different accents and slangs much like the difference between english speaking countries. They even differ in accent within the cities of the same country.
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we're not the christian right, we are currently a secular left. i agree the age of european empires was a pretty brutal time, however it was fuelled by a different intellectual, moral and spiritual framework. so while it is our past, it is not necessarily our future.
all empires grow on the conquest of the weak, the persians, the romans, the islamic caliphate, the ottomans, the british empire, however as a result we also progress as a species with huge advancements in the fields of human thought. as a species we thrive on conflict, that just seems to be the nature of the beast. it needs to be acknowledged, examined and catered for.
i agree completely, an understanding of history is important to give background to the conflict, however it isn't just a case of saying "oh we were bad, sorry, here do whatever you want". true solutions only come through compromise and negotiation OF ALL PARTIES. everyone everywhere has been hard done by at some time or another and one party CANNOT have the monopoly of historical suffering and victimisation over another.
everyone needs to stop, pretend the past never happened, look at what we are all doing to each other NOW, and then compromise and negotiate from there. whether we are talking the arabs and israelis, the aborigines, the congolese or wherever else, there will never ever be peace unless history is accepted, and people shift their focus from the past to the future.
it will never happen
all empires grow on the conquest of the weak, the persians, the romans, the islamic caliphate, the ottomans, the british empire, however as a result we also progress as a species with huge advancements in the fields of human thought. as a species we thrive on conflict, that just seems to be the nature of the beast. it needs to be acknowledged, examined and catered for.
i agree completely, an understanding of history is important to give background to the conflict, however it isn't just a case of saying "oh we were bad, sorry, here do whatever you want". true solutions only come through compromise and negotiation OF ALL PARTIES. everyone everywhere has been hard done by at some time or another and one party CANNOT have the monopoly of historical suffering and victimisation over another.
everyone needs to stop, pretend the past never happened, look at what we are all doing to each other NOW, and then compromise and negotiate from there. whether we are talking the arabs and israelis, the aborigines, the congolese or wherever else, there will never ever be peace unless history is accepted, and people shift their focus from the past to the future.
it will never happen
It will never happen, disarray, yes I agree with you. That is, unless a benign form of eugenics is ever practised. It might not come about only as the result of DNA engineering. Technology might eventually come up with other ways to tweak the good over the bad. Before we self-destruct.
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however it isn't just a case of saying "oh we were bad, sorry, here do whatever you want". true solutions only come through compromise and negotiation OF ALL PARTIES. everyone everywhere has been hard done by at some time or another and one party CANNOT have the monopoly of historical suffering and victimisation over another.
Yep well said. A solution will take compromise from both sides and it is unlikely to happen in our life time.
Looks that UN sees both sides to have some blame for what is happening.
But it also looks that Mr Olmert is determined that: “that Hamas must not only stop firing but must no longer be able to fire”.
How can they do that?
So as it is now there is little chance, as briefcase rocket launchers can be easily smuggled in.
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Well they are doing a bloody good job of killing a lot of innocent people.
That statement is a classic.
"human rights constraints" as in it is "not acceptable to kill innocent people".
Is your view that Israel should nuke the Gaza Strip, and then say sorry?
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We hear a lot about the numbers of children killed in this conflict, and on the streets in Gaza there children running everywhere. I couldn't understand why women living in a hell-hole like the Gaza strip with no future and no hope would continue to have children. After all if they can get weapons they can get contraceptives
Sadly, I think you have provided the answer.
To those who feel strongly that israel are merely defending themselves against terrorist within the occupied territories, the following are some hard facts:
No. of palestinian minors killed by israeli forces between 29.9.2000 to 30.11.2008: 975
No. of israeli minors killed by palestinians between 29.9.2000 to 30.11.2008: 123
Can you not see how out of balance this war is? Seriously, who are the real terrorists? I am not in anyway condoning violence on either side, but the facts speak for themselves.
In 2008 alone, 73 palestinian minors were killed by israeli forces, 47 of which were 15 years and under. This during a period when both sides were supposedly observing the shortlived peace truce.
From 2001 to current, a total of 16 israelis have been killed by Qassam rocket attacks. Thats 16 deaths in 7 years compared to 73 minor deaths in 1 year alone. Again, I am not trying to diminish any of these deaths. 1 death alone is intolerable, however the imbalance in this conflict is so plain to see. For every 1 death caused by a qassam rocket, israel has killed 100 palestinians. Can we really believe that israel is defending themselves by bombarding the crap out of an over-populated city like Gaza? - As they claim to stop qassam rocket attacks which have taken 16 lives in 8 years. Is this not a gross over-reaction which is really aimed at punishing the entire Gazan population? The figures speak for themselves.
No. of palestinian minors killed by israeli forces between 29.9.2000 to 30.11.2008: 975
No. of israeli minors killed by palestinians between 29.9.2000 to 30.11.2008: 123
Can you not see how out of balance this war is? Seriously, who are the real terrorists? I am not in anyway condoning violence on either side, but the facts speak for themselves.
In 2008 alone, 73 palestinian minors were killed by israeli forces, 47 of which were 15 years and under. This during a period when both sides were supposedly observing the shortlived peace truce.
From 2001 to current, a total of 16 israelis have been killed by Qassam rocket attacks. Thats 16 deaths in 7 years compared to 73 minor deaths in 1 year alone. Again, I am not trying to diminish any of these deaths. 1 death alone is intolerable, however the imbalance in this conflict is so plain to see. For every 1 death caused by a qassam rocket, israel has killed 100 palestinians. Can we really believe that israel is defending themselves by bombarding the crap out of an over-populated city like Gaza? - As they claim to stop qassam rocket attacks which have taken 16 lives in 8 years. Is this not a gross over-reaction which is really aimed at punishing the entire Gazan population? The figures speak for themselves.
Wow this thread tops them all. How dare the people of Gaza continue to pro-create in such hell like squalid conditions. They should do better and not have babies at all. Oh wait, they are actually having babies to provide for a steady stream of suicide bombers - warped....
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This article is from an Irish newspaper, the media in Europe tend to get to the point and don't seem to be as influenced by political motives.
On TV apart from SBS World News it is impossible to get any informative media reporting in Australia, usually eight minutes of news, seven of ads and the rest is sport, current affairs and in house program promotion
Independent.ie
Why the Israeli people have finally had enough
So, it's genocide now, is it? Or is it actually another holocaust, something which one typically restrained Palestinian analyst described as "worse than Hitler's war against the Jews"? Are we watching the ethnic cleansing of an entire people? Are we witnessing the deliberate eradication of a race?
Well, no actually, we're not.
Yet the conventional dinner party wisdom which we've had to put up with in the media, both here in Ireland and generally across Britain, is that somehow Israel is the aggressor in the rapidly worsening situation in Gaza.
Footage of air strikes with the ensuing photogenic explosions and dramatic plumes of smoke, quickly followed by clips of collapsed buildings and enraged mourners, makes far better copy than actually looking at the reasons why Israel has done what it's done.
Anyone who devotes only a cursory glance at the news, both print and television, would be forgiven for thinking that, out of spite, might and malice, Israel has decided to destroy the Palestinian people.
The problem with that conclusion -- and it's not something you're going to learn from the BBC and most other outlets -- is that, contrary to the currently popular belief, Israel is actually acting with a ridiculous degree of restraint.
Over the last couple of years, thousands of rockets have been landing on Israeli soil and, finally, they have had enough.
But behind that statistic there is a human dimension which tends to be rather ignored.
I know many people in the southern Israeli town of Sderot and what is remarkable about their stories is not the number or make of rockets which have fallen on them on a daily basis for years, but the psychological carnage this wreaked upon them.
One woman freely admitted to me that she hasn't had a proper night's sleep in more than two years as she and her family now basically live in their bomb shelter and it's hard to tell who she hates more -- the Muslim terrorists of Hamas or the Israeli government which she thinks has abandoned them.
It's a common feeling amongst residents of southern Israeli towns who have been the silent victims of a long campaign of violence, intimidation and murder carried out by Hamas. And now, finally, that the Israelis have said that enough is enough, they are somehow meant to be the aggressors?
There are people of good conscience on both sides of this argument, but one of the main problems in this debate lies in the cowardly tendency of the Western media to apply equivalence to both sides.
Thus, Hamas is seen to be as legitimate a government as the Israelis, and its rocket attacks across the border from Gaza are seen as being part of a yet another, intractable, interminable Middle Eastern dispute.
There's just one problem with that approach -- it's completely wrong.
Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamic organisation intent on the eradication of the state of Israel and all its citizens; a violent fascist regime that allows honour killings and the execution of homosexuals to continue in its sphere of influence. Bankrolled by Iran, it manages to make even Hezbollah look like a moderate organisation.
But Hamas is clever.
As a friend of mine from Sderot pointed out, one of its favourite tactics is to launch Qassams from Palestinian schoolyards -- while the schools are still in session.
Hamas does this, you see, knowing that the IDF can't immediately strike back (they can vector a rocket launch site within 90 seconds) because the last thing the Israelis need is footage of a devastated Palestinian school with dead kids.
And, over the last week, we have seen carefully manipulated footage of dead civilians, with the fact that they were effectively used as human shields conveniently ignored. When Israel pulled out of Gaza -- ironically, the last battalion of IDF troops to leave Gaza contained some people from Sderot -- they were acceding to international and internal pressure. The doves on the Left said it was to prove to Palestinians that they wanted to give Palestinians independence, the hawks on the Right -- and there are some truly scary right-wingers in Israel, even as ardent a supporter of the country as I am will freely admit that -- prophesied that it would lead to carnage.
And, lo and behold, virtually as soon as the last jeep left Gaza the rockets started. And then the blockade began, and the whole damn mess started all over again.
But there's a bigger picture here, something which Israelis have been trying to broadcast to the world, but which, thanks to their spectacular inability to accurately and sympathetically portray their point of view, has not been properly transmitted. It's this -- Israel is the front line of the war between democracy and Islamic fascism.
Would you rather live in a society with a free press, equal rights for women -- and anyone who knows an Israeli woman will know that they're not easily suppressed, anyway -- equal rights for gay people and a proud and stubborn belief in the right of the individual to lead their life in the way that they see fit or would you rather exist in a society where women who dare to speak their mind are executed, where gay people are not just shunned but murdered and where having a dissenting thought marks you out for death?
The civilian deaths in Gaza are to be mourned, and anyone who says otherwise is reprehensible. But in a sick and twisted irony, they are mourned more by Israelis than by Hamas, who know that every dead Palestinian kid is worth another piece of propaganda.
Here in the West, where we share the same values as Israel, we need to start standing shoulder with this tiny oasis of democracy in a vast desert of savagery.
To do otherwise is moral cowardice of the most repugnant kind.
On TV apart from SBS World News it is impossible to get any informative media reporting in Australia, usually eight minutes of news, seven of ads and the rest is sport, current affairs and in house program promotion
Independent.ie
Why the Israeli people have finally had enough
So, it's genocide now, is it? Or is it actually another holocaust, something which one typically restrained Palestinian analyst described as "worse than Hitler's war against the Jews"? Are we watching the ethnic cleansing of an entire people? Are we witnessing the deliberate eradication of a race?
Well, no actually, we're not.
Yet the conventional dinner party wisdom which we've had to put up with in the media, both here in Ireland and generally across Britain, is that somehow Israel is the aggressor in the rapidly worsening situation in Gaza.
Footage of air strikes with the ensuing photogenic explosions and dramatic plumes of smoke, quickly followed by clips of collapsed buildings and enraged mourners, makes far better copy than actually looking at the reasons why Israel has done what it's done.
Anyone who devotes only a cursory glance at the news, both print and television, would be forgiven for thinking that, out of spite, might and malice, Israel has decided to destroy the Palestinian people.
The problem with that conclusion -- and it's not something you're going to learn from the BBC and most other outlets -- is that, contrary to the currently popular belief, Israel is actually acting with a ridiculous degree of restraint.
Over the last couple of years, thousands of rockets have been landing on Israeli soil and, finally, they have had enough.
But behind that statistic there is a human dimension which tends to be rather ignored.
I know many people in the southern Israeli town of Sderot and what is remarkable about their stories is not the number or make of rockets which have fallen on them on a daily basis for years, but the psychological carnage this wreaked upon them.
One woman freely admitted to me that she hasn't had a proper night's sleep in more than two years as she and her family now basically live in their bomb shelter and it's hard to tell who she hates more -- the Muslim terrorists of Hamas or the Israeli government which she thinks has abandoned them.
It's a common feeling amongst residents of southern Israeli towns who have been the silent victims of a long campaign of violence, intimidation and murder carried out by Hamas. And now, finally, that the Israelis have said that enough is enough, they are somehow meant to be the aggressors?
There are people of good conscience on both sides of this argument, but one of the main problems in this debate lies in the cowardly tendency of the Western media to apply equivalence to both sides.
Thus, Hamas is seen to be as legitimate a government as the Israelis, and its rocket attacks across the border from Gaza are seen as being part of a yet another, intractable, interminable Middle Eastern dispute.
There's just one problem with that approach -- it's completely wrong.
Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamic organisation intent on the eradication of the state of Israel and all its citizens; a violent fascist regime that allows honour killings and the execution of homosexuals to continue in its sphere of influence. Bankrolled by Iran, it manages to make even Hezbollah look like a moderate organisation.
But Hamas is clever.
As a friend of mine from Sderot pointed out, one of its favourite tactics is to launch Qassams from Palestinian schoolyards -- while the schools are still in session.
Hamas does this, you see, knowing that the IDF can't immediately strike back (they can vector a rocket launch site within 90 seconds) because the last thing the Israelis need is footage of a devastated Palestinian school with dead kids.
And, over the last week, we have seen carefully manipulated footage of dead civilians, with the fact that they were effectively used as human shields conveniently ignored. When Israel pulled out of Gaza -- ironically, the last battalion of IDF troops to leave Gaza contained some people from Sderot -- they were acceding to international and internal pressure. The doves on the Left said it was to prove to Palestinians that they wanted to give Palestinians independence, the hawks on the Right -- and there are some truly scary right-wingers in Israel, even as ardent a supporter of the country as I am will freely admit that -- prophesied that it would lead to carnage.
And, lo and behold, virtually as soon as the last jeep left Gaza the rockets started. And then the blockade began, and the whole damn mess started all over again.
But there's a bigger picture here, something which Israelis have been trying to broadcast to the world, but which, thanks to their spectacular inability to accurately and sympathetically portray their point of view, has not been properly transmitted. It's this -- Israel is the front line of the war between democracy and Islamic fascism.
Would you rather live in a society with a free press, equal rights for women -- and anyone who knows an Israeli woman will know that they're not easily suppressed, anyway -- equal rights for gay people and a proud and stubborn belief in the right of the individual to lead their life in the way that they see fit or would you rather exist in a society where women who dare to speak their mind are executed, where gay people are not just shunned but murdered and where having a dissenting thought marks you out for death?
The civilian deaths in Gaza are to be mourned, and anyone who says otherwise is reprehensible. But in a sick and twisted irony, they are mourned more by Israelis than by Hamas, who know that every dead Palestinian kid is worth another piece of propaganda.
Here in the West, where we share the same values as Israel, we need to start standing shoulder with this tiny oasis of democracy in a vast desert of savagery.
To do otherwise is moral cowardice of the most repugnant kind.
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Where do you get those facts and figures from?
according to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs...from 2000 to 2004, Hamas was responsible for killing nearly 400 Israelis and wounding more than 2,000 in 425 attacks
From 2001 through May 2008, Hamas launched more than 3,000 Qassam rockets and 2,500 mortar attacks against Israeli targets.
Who knows whether those numbers are accurate. My point in posting those numbers is to show that anyone can post any numbers and back it up with a "link". Here is the link to what I've just posted. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,475664,00.html
Admittedly foxnews is just that, foxnews, depending on how left or right you believe, you'll believe the accuracy of this report.
I've never seen a war yet where one side gives 100% accurate informations.
This statistic could prove almost anything you care to believe.
On a different note, it was only a month or two ago we were expecting to wake up to hear that Iran's nuclear installations were toast.
Is it possible that this Gaza episode is a prelude to that happening - maybe it will provide some form of excuse?
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At least 537 Palestinians have died in the conflict and 2,600 are wounded, including several women and children killed yesterday,
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aYVsYPYNys_Y&refer=home
killed yesterday
and what about today ?
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aYVsYPYNys_Y&refer=home
killed yesterday
and what about today ?
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Given that the population of Israel is around 7.2m vs 0.5m for Gaza, it does seem a bit one sided, to put it rather callously. However (1) How does Isreal stop Hamas and the rest of the bros taking pot shots at them, and (2) How does Israel (and the rest of the world for that matter) deal with the fact that Iran (and a few million others) want to make mischief and wipe Israel & the Jews off the map? If anyone can answer those questions then they may have made a mark in history for themselves. What is the solution? Other than so much killing and violence that they significantly reduce each other's population to the point where nuffs enuff. Can the world's major powers (and U.N.???) ever develop a solution that satisfies all parties?
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Thanks Boggo for the post. Parts of which I have quoted.
Rowie
That is why Hamas needs the kids, but I guess you already knew this and don't consider them "warped" at all.
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This is a very biased statement.
How can a dead Palestinian child be referred to as "another piece of propaganda".
chops_a_must
Printing My Own Money
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Because they aren't real people. You should know that Macquack...
These figures are from an israeli human rights group who independently keep track of atrocities that occur on both sides of the fence. Here is a link to the page:
www.btselem.org.
There are many israelis who are appalled at the action that their own government takes on palestinians.
For anyone who cares to search, this sort of information is quite readily available from reliable resources on the net. Of course we cant wish for 100% accurate information rather something close to the vicinity.
And yes 3000 qassam rockets have been fired into israel yet they have only resulted in 16 deaths. This is a fact that even israeli propoganda machinery reports - Look it up. Isnt it a wonder why there are those who support israel in this war considering most like yourself are not even familiar with the hard facts. Fact is that even israel have admitted that the rockets do not pose a serious physical threat to the general population rather one more a phsycological threat.
And your facts on the number Hamas has killed between 2000 to 2004 relates not to deaths from qassam rockets. The total number of deaths is something like 5000 palestinians and 1000 israelis since 2000. I was only pointing out the deaths to minors as they are more often then not innocent victims in this conflict. Check out the facts yourself from reasonable sources (Fox news certainly not a reasonable source)
