Israel in the Gaza Strip

[lucas]

I don't think I am heartless, but counting dead children does not seem an appropriate means to ascertain who has more of a moral high ground.

 

[chops_a_must]

I don't think I am heartless, but counting dead children does not seem an appropriate means to ascertain who has more of a moral high ground.

No, but it is probably a fairer measure of degree of suffering.

 

[lucas]

It's an unfortunate fact that the dead don't suffer. You would have to factor in the psychological damage done to living children from human beings bent on your destruction. Not something I feel happy doing either.

It is violence as a solution that is the crime, and both parties commit it endlessly.

 

[lucas]

I fear we are going to witness the taking out of Iran's nuke hotspots sometime soon. Under cover of this Gaza incursion - what better time?

What's the general feeling that this is the doorstep to massive all-out war, or just more of the same dribbling along?

And what do people think of Obama's coming into this in two weeks? I have my views but I'm more interested in what you think.

 

[gordon2007]

www.btselem.org.

Thanks for the link

There are many israelis who are appalled at the action that their own government takes on palestinians.

I'm sure there are many in gaza who are appalled at what hamas does. just as there are many in australia who are appalled at what australia does and just as there are many in america who are appalled at what america does.

have only resulted in 16 deaths.

Only? Death is death. Why is it deemed acceptable that the deaths hamas causes are OK because they are "ONLY" a few!!!

considering most like yourself are not even familiar with the hard facts.

You don't know where I've been and what I've seen. You cannot make an intelligent assumption on where I've been without knowing me personally.

And your facts on the number Hamas has killed

They are not my facts, merely text written on a news page I chose to quote on here. I never claimed they were mine.

(Fox news certainly not a reasonable source)

I did make a reference that one is to believe what they will from fox. I was only using that as an example as to how easy it is to find a link that is favourable to any particular view.

Slightly off topic, I can't seem to figure out this multi quoting

 

[rowie]

I don't think I am heartless, but counting dead children does not seem an appropriate means to ascertain who has more of a moral high ground.

Lucas, it is merely to point out the imbalance of the conflict and to show who the real oppressors are. Israel seems to think that theyre people are being oppressed or that at least is the argument they present to justify the heavy handed actions that they take. Casualty rates such as these show who is mightier and who has the strength and general control in the conflict. It goes to illustrate that the palestinians are under occupation by a government and army which is the 4th strongest and biggest in the world. It goes to show that it is very much a david and goliath type battle where for every 1 kid killed in israel, 9 are killed in the occupied territories. How can you not see that there is something fundamentally sick about this? It has got nothing to do with moral high ground rather it illustrates and differentiates between the oppressors and the oppressed. I dont quite understand how you fail to see this.

 

[lucas]

I'll pass on this because I've already made my views clear.

 

[disarray]

How can a dead Palestinian child be referred to as "another piece of propaganda".

because palestinian media have been manipulating the media for years to portray israel as an aggressor and the poor innocent palestinians as victims. using dead children as propaganda? naaaah, i mean, who would do such a thing???

No, but it is probably a fairer measure of degree of suffering.

because bodycount = suffering

It has got nothing to do with moral high ground rather it illustrates and differentiates between the oppressors and the oppressed

no, it illustrates who best manipulates the media to sway public opinion to their side. oppressed, lol, thats a good one. oh no, the poor palestinians who were cheering in the streets on 9/11, call for the destruction of israel, train their children to hate israel, encourage people to blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces and murder homosexuals and female family members for besmirching the family "honour" are oppressed? cry me a river.

by their works shall ye judge them, those who live by the sword yadda yadda insert relevant biblical reference about nasty people getting their comeuppance here.

oh yeah david and goliath, nice analogy. like the entire arab world against israel kind of thing yeah? with the palestinians left holding the bag for the repeated abject failures of their muslim brothers. well done the ummah!

 

[chops_a_must]

because bodycount = suffering

Yep, that's right.

The scale of the holocaust indicates no link to suffering at all. Nor does the Tokyo Fire Raids, nor does the numbers of civilian deaths on the eastern front or in Manchuria, Rwanda et al.

 

[disarray]

well it could be argued people who are alive living under constant fear and torment suffer a lot more than the dead. i mean there are chinese that think the cultural revolution was a good thing despite the huge bodycount. numbers are just that, numbers, its the impact on those still around that determine suffering.

so you are saying the israelis who have had rockets falling around them and buses, nightclubs and marketplaces blown up for years and years don't suffer as much as the palestinians?

seriously look at the following picture, how the hell do you deal with people who make childrens cartoons that say you should kill jews, groom their kids to blow themselves up and will accept genocide as the only way to live with your neighbours? why is the left so hell bent on defending this madness???

 

[chops_a_must]

well it could be argued people who are alive living under constant fear and torment suffer a lot more than the dead. i mean there are chinese that think the cultural revolution was a good thing despite the huge bodycount. numbers are just that, numbers, its the impact on those still around that determine suffering.

If you are going to invoke that then you would look at the probability of being killed when you happen to be living in a certain area, or belong to a certain racial group. I'd say the odds are stacked against Gazans there.

so you are saying the israelis who have had rockets falling around them and buses, nightclubs and marketplaces blown up for years and years don't suffer as much as the palestinians?

Yes. Because:

1. They are allowed to travel, and travel on buses.
2. They are allowed to congregate, and congregate in nightclubs/ social arenas/ whatever.
3. Because they are allowed to have an economy and a marketplace.

seriously look at the following picture, how the hell do you deal with people who make childrens cartoons that say you should kill jews, groom their kids to blow themselves up and will accept genocide as the only way to live with your neighbours? why is the left so hell bent on defending this madness???

I don't think anyone here is defending that. But a lot here understand the circumstances that lead to those beliefs. Not exactly hard to become a radical when you don't have access to fundamental human rights, and more peaceful actions have left you nowhere.

 

[disarray]

Yes. Because:

1. They are allowed to travel, and travel on buses.
2. They are allowed to congregate, and congregate in nightclubs/ social arenas/ whatever.
3. Because they are allowed to have an economy and a marketplace.

ok, so why don't the palestinians have these freedoms? did they used to have these freedoms and now they don't? or have they never been allowed these freedoms? if they had them before but not now, why were they taken away?

I don't think anyone here is defending that. But a lot here understand the circumstances that lead to those beliefs. Not exactly hard to become a radical when you don't have access to fundamental human rights, and more peaceful actions have left you nowhere.

by the same token it isn't hard to commit dometic violence when your parents beat you, or sexually abuse children because you were abused as a child, it doesn't mean we tolerate it or accept it as an excuse. the offender must break the cycle, not continue to indulge in it, yet for some reason we continue to make excuses for murderous radicals with psychotic ideals. why is that???

and more peaceful actions? the palestinians regularly violate truces and ceasefires because they can't help but start lobbing rockets at people again. seriously, these people are like children and need a thorough smacking down to try and teach them how to behave as civilised neighbours.

 

[The Muffin Man]

If my country was the continual target of the rockets fired from a bordering neighbour I would consider this an act of war from my neighbour.

I am not sure I understand why some on here are calling a response to an act of war as 'disproportionate.'

Does Israel need to wait until some Hamas rockets kill mass amounts of Israeli citizens before they can respond with force so that the response is then not labelled 'disproportionate?' That does not make sense to me.

If my country was subject to continual rocket attacks from my neighbour, and my country had the more well trained and better equiped army, I would not expect my country to employ some kind of tit for tat response. That would defeat the purpose of having the stronger army. I would expect a response that ensured that these rocket attacks are stopped. If your country falls under constant attack, you don't sit around waiting until these attacks kill a greater number of your citizens in an attempt to legitimize a heavy handed response. You remove those perpetrating the threat with minimal casualties on your side. If Hamas had such weaponry available to them, I am positive they would be using it.

 

[wayneL]

Sky News was just showing an interview with an English lass in Gaza who is working as a volunteer ambulance driver.

Her ambulance was caught in an attack, the amulance damaged and her colleague injured.

She says the situation is intolerable, the Israeli forces strafing civilians at will with f16s, spy planes(?) and apache attack choppers. Iraeli naval vessels are bombarding from the Med also.

The media here definitely very sympathetic with the Palestinian plight.

FWIW

 

[chops_a_must]

ok, so why don't the palestinians have these freedoms? did they used to have these freedoms and now they don't? or have they never been allowed these freedoms? if they had them before but not now, why were they taken away?

This is largely as a result of the second intifida which was triggered by various inflammatory actions by Sharon. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, given his record, and what he is on record as saying, that it was a deliberate provocation.

by the same token it isn't hard to commit dometic violence when your parents beat you, or sexually abuse children because you were abused as a child, it doesn't mean we tolerate it or accept it as an excuse. the offender must break the cycle, not continue to indulge in it, yet for some reason we continue to make excuses for murderous radicals with psychotic ideals. why is that???

I would not see that as an acceptable analogy. I'd more liken it to cases where wives have carried out violent acts on partners after relationships of complete torture.

I agree that at some point there has to be a break in the cycle. But this has to be on BOTH sides. An end to expansion of Israeli territory would be a first step. All well and good to put all the blame on one side, but meaningful actions have to be enacted on both sides.

Psychotic ideals belong to both sides also. Not sure why you are only singling one out. Even Ben Gurion, the founder of Israel openly admitted that Israel would always be an aggressor. Not really any different to how Hitler behaved in the Sudetenland.

and more peaceful actions? the palestinians regularly violate truces and ceasefires because they can't help but start lobbing rockets at people again. seriously, these people are like children and need a thorough smacking down to try and teach them how to behave as civilised neighbours.

I'm talking about Fatah, and even though they were a moderate political force, and the most lenient body Israel are ever going to deal with, they were crushed and humiliated. So if you are going to be treated like that, if you have a moderate outlook, why wouldn't you take up a more defensive position and outlook?

 

[chops_a_must]

If my country was the continual target of the rockets fired from a bordering neighbour I would consider this an act of war from my neighbour.

When the Chinese invade, I'll tell them you have allowed them to commandeer your house from you.

That's all ok according to you.

 

[lucas]

seriously, these people are like children and need a thorough smacking down to try and teach them how to behave as civilised neighbours.

War teaches historians lessons; I doubt if it teaches civilised behaviour.

But your posts are heartfelt and I don't mean to poke at them like some fussy teacher.

I'm still interested in what others think about the future of this payback; it's not so hard to extrapolate from the past. Where's it going? Alright, my 2c - I don't think Hamas can be wiped out. I can't see how Israel can achieve anything but more pain for itself by striking as it has.

 

[disarray]

This is largely as a result of the second intifida which was triggered by various inflammatory actions by Sharon. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, given his record, and what he is on record as saying, that it was a deliberate provocation.

so its all the israelis fault and nothing to do with continual palestinian violence? and sharon just had an irrational hatred of the palestinians for no reason whatsoever. right.

I'd more liken it to cases where wives have carried out violent acts on partners after relationships of complete torture.

i wouldn't, because the palestinians aren't some poor defenceless battered bride, they are a heavily armed, aggressively motivated, genocidally inclined, paramilitary force.

I agree that at some point there has to be a break in the cycle. But this has to be on BOTH sides. An end to expansion of Israeli territory would be a first step.

they've already stopped. the israelis left gaza completely a few years ago.

Psychotic ideals belong to both sides also. Not sure why you are only singling one out.

because israel doesn't have a constitution that says ""The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Cedar tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

I'm talking about Fatah, and even though they were a moderate political force, and the most lenient body Israel are ever going to deal with, they were crushed and humiliated. So if you are going to be treated like that, if you have a moderate outlook, why wouldn't you take up a more defensive position and outlook?

ummm israel didn't crush fatah, it was hamas who crushed them. good to see the palestinians managing their internal affairs with the same delicacy as their external affairs.

this is what the israelis are dealing with ...

Palestinians boast of using civilians as human shields

"We want death just as much as you desire life"

lots of scope for a peaceful resolution there

War teaches historians lessons; I doubt if it teaches civilised behaviour.

sure it does, its worked for empires for centuries (imposing their own brand of "civilised" of course). it did wonders for the japanese as well didn't it?

 

[disarray]

lol just got sent this link, little palestinian girls doing the suicide bomber dance. so cute!



and here are palestinians playing "pass the injured baby for a great photo op". media manipulation? not a chance.

 

[lucas]

The difference between the US occupation of Japan and the Israeli occupation of any Arab land is so categorical that the point is anything but moot. Besides, the Japanese chose collective amnesia to heal their wounds. Arabs have excellent memories.

Sharon, by the way, has a lot to answer for. Arafat too.