Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

[Tisme]

Other than that, Muslims still have the right to freedom of worship, freedom of speech etc the same as everyone else so I can't see where rights are being taken away from them.

I seem to recall that right only exists at a federal level (e.g. territories). The States can prohibit, establish and regulate religions within in their boundaries under the constitution.

 

[SirRumpole]

Looks like you are correct.

Section 116 of the Constitution of Australia precludes the Commonwealth of Australia (i.e., the federal parliament) from making laws for establishing any religion, imposing any religious observance, or prohibiting the free exercise of any religion. Section 116 also provides that no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth. The product of a compromise in the pre-Federation constitutional conventions, Section 116 is based on similar provisions in the United States Constitution. However, Section 116 is more narrowly drafted than its US counterpart, and does not preclude the states of Australia from making such laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_116_of_the_Constitution_of_Australia

However I don't see any examples of States discriminating against Muslims currently.

 

[noco]

Noco, if NSW want to go to war with Queensland, I bet you we can just spend two minutes and find a few nutjob up North to justify why we the entire state ought to be taken out.

Maybe it's possible that we're misinformed, are given false choices of we either kill them or they kill us. Maybe we can just all get along and nobody needs to die over anything.

Maybe we Australians ought to learn a few lessons from the past. That going along with our Great Protector tend to harm (some) of our own soldiers, waste some of our own treasures... and make us too reliant on others for our national security.

That's a small price to pay when that Great Protector is all big and powerful. But as Mother England have shown, when she over extends her empire and a couple of serious up and coming industrial power thought to challenge her... you know, not your average colonial rebels and terrorists... when that happen, our Great Protector might retreat and leave us hanging. What then?

Trust me, the world has not had two equivalent military power facing off each other since WW2. Maybe the "Cuban" Missile Crisis. And in those 13 days, the world would be been blown to bits if the Soviets didn't flinch, or if one Soviet officer didn't go against launching a nuke from his submarine.

As bad as the wars in the ME is, it's a side show if the US and its allies (incl us Aussies) go to war with China or Russia. Either side might not be smart enough to flinch this time.

So with all that rhetoric, what has that got to do with the interview with that Muslim?

He clearly stated, "if you do not believe in Sharia Law and the teachings of the Koran, you are not a Muslim".

I just can't follow your post...The chances of QLD and NSW going to war is nothing more than a pipe dream....I can't believe you would have ever thought about it.

 

[Value Collector]

So what rights are you saying are being taken away ?

It may come down to banning the burka, but I think that can be justified in terms of crime prevention.

If we put a moratorium on immigration from Muslim countries, I think that would be generally supported in the community, as we have a right to let into the country whoever we want and refuse access to those we don't.

Other than that, Muslims still have the right to freedom of worship, freedom of speech etc the same as everyone else so I can't see where rights are being taken away from them.

Firstly, which crimes are currently happening that are problem enough by people wearing burkas to warrant banning the burka?

There have been calls for all sorts of things that are unfair against Muslims, eg religious tests for citizenship, bans against building mosques,

Not to mention the general abuse by members of the public.

Noco's type are running around like scared little children (playing right in the hands of Isis) hating on garden vararity Muslims, which as I have said does nothing but cause more polarisation and lead to more radicalisation.

 

[Value Collector]

He clearly stated, "if you do not believe in Sharia Law and the teachings of the Koran, you are not a Muslim".

So what, he doesn't get to decide what a Muslims is any more than anyone else.

If I find a quote of another muslim saying "you don't have to believe in sharia law to be a good Muslim" then what, you will find Muslims don't agree on a lot of stuff just like Christians don't agree on a lot of stuff.

You shouldn't take the opinion of one small group as if it applied to all

 

[Tisme]

Looks like you are correct.



However I don't see any examples of States discriminating against Muslims currently.

Making them take their enslaved wive's masks off for identification would probably rank up their as a gross insult against puerile Islamic men?

I just don't know what we get out of allowing another creed and cunning into the country? Surely the net upside is marginal at best. We have already been lumbered with legislation we 40s&50s born never dreamed of as kids.... laws to force us into a plastic politeness, laws prohibiting us expressing our own hurt at having to put up with a lay about sky fairy culture invading our sense.

Why is it that you go into a city on a work day and their are people from third world countries all over the place....where are they getting the money and why aren't they working? Where is the money coming from for Muslim women to go to university in their droves .... i hope it's not from some infantile idealogue in govt thinking education of women will stop the Islamic nemesis?

How long did it take for the similarly stubborn catholic Irish to assimilate into Oz culture? Answer = the descendants still think they are firkin Oirsh and Mick; that's how long.

 

[SirRumpole]

There have been calls for all sorts of things that are unfair against Muslims, eg religious tests for citizenship, bans against building mosques,

I suppose it's a matter of what people consider a "right". I think we have been here before but if a public building refuses to install a prayer room for Muslims, is that a breach of their "rights" to observe their religion ?

If Halal food is not available in shops is that a breach of their "rights" to observe their religion ?

If planning permission to build a Mosque is refused is that a breach of their rights ? They could obviously observe their religion in their own homes.

They come voluntarily to this country so they have to make an effort to adjust their own expectations rather than insisting that we adjust ours.

 

[noco]

So what, he doesn't get to decide what a Muslims is any more than anyone else.

If I find a quote of another muslim saying "you don't have to believe in sharia law to be a good Muslim" then what, you will find Muslims don't agree on a lot of stuff just like Christians don't agree on a lot of stuff.

You shouldn't take the opinion of one small group as if it applied to all

Where is your link?

 

[Value Collector]

I suppose it's a matter of what people consider a "right". I think we have been here before but if a public building refuses to install a prayer room for Muslims, is that a breach of their "rights" to observe their religion ?

If Halal food is not available in shops is that a breach of their "rights" to observe their religion ?

If planning permission to build a Mosque is refused is that a breach of their rights ? They could obviously observe their religion in their own homes.

They come voluntarily to this country so they have to make an effort to adjust their own expectations rather than insisting that we adjust ours.

We can start with the UN's universal charter for human rights, refusing to accept or deny refugees based on their religion would be a breach of human rights, yet people like Pauline Hanson are calling for that.

You kind of have it backwards, offcourse "not stocking halal foods" isn't a breach, but calling to ban halal is.

If people want to ban a mosques, yet they would be fine with a Catholic Church, yes that's a breach.

 

[Value Collector]

Where is your link?

Scroll down to the bar chart on the right, you will see in a lot of countries Muslims don't support sharia law.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

 

[noco]

Scroll down to the bar chart on the right, you will see in a lot of countries Muslims don't support sharia law.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

VC, one thing I find it hard to believe is that very American Muslims are not up to speed with Islam and Sharia law......Why didn't the author include the USA?



Jim Good • 7 months ago

A poll taken of muslims living on America finds that 51 percent think sharia law should be enacted in America.
Another poll done by this very research company found that young muslims say they are more loyal to islam than the U.S. The percentage was 63 percent. I wonder why this didnt find its way into the article ?
Peeeeeewww, something stinks here. !

 

[overhang]

A poll taken of muslims living on America finds that 51 percent think sharia law should be enacted in America.
Another poll done by this very research company found that young muslims say they are more loyal to islam than the U.S. The percentage was 63 percent. I wonder why this didnt find its way into the article ?
Peeeeeewww, something stinks here. !

A poll in a western country which such a high % raises eyebrows until I read a bit more about the poll.
The poll was an online poll with a sample size of 600, they had no way of verifying if they were actually Muslims answering the questions or not.
http://bridge.georgetown.edu/new-poll-on-american-muslims-is-grounded-in-bias-riddled-with-flaws/

 

[SirRumpole]

If people want to ban a mosques, yet they would be fine with a Catholic Church, yes that's a breach.

It may just come down to the fact that more people want a Catholic Church on a particular site than want a Mosque.

That's not discrimination, it's just benefitting the majority.

 

[luutzu]

So with all that rhetoric, what has that got to do with the interview with that Muslim?

He clearly stated, "if you do not believe in Sharia Law and the teachings of the Koran, you are not a Muslim".

I just can't follow your post...The chances of QLD and NSW going to war is nothing more than a pipe dream....I can't believe you would have ever thought about it.

Was trying to say that we're watching propaganda. You know, putting up dots close enough that we paint "our own" picture... we report, you decide.

So here's a seriously hardcore religious nut, listen to what he says and you decide whether or not all Muslims are like that; Here's a bunch of terrorists doing murder... you tell us if they're all murdering, crazed religious fanatics.

Where are the moderate, normal, everyday kinda Muslims? These are representatives of all 1.5 billion of them!

So you see why we need to spend all that money, some family's kids life, to defend freedom and our way of life?

 

[Value Collector]

It may just come down to the fact that more people want a Catholic Church on a particular site than want a Mosque.

That's not discrimination, it's just benefitting the majority.

What are you talking about?

I am saying if a group of Muslims purchase some land, do all the planning and stuff correctly, but then they are denied their rights to operate a mosque simply because they are Muslim, where if they had been a group of Catholics they would have been allowed.

 

[Value Collector]

VC, one thing I find it hard to believe is that very American Muslims are not up to speed with Islam and Sharia law......Why didn't the author include the USA?



Jim Good • 7 months ago

A poll taken of muslims living on America finds that 51 percent think sharia law should be enacted in America.
Another poll done by this very research company found that young muslims say they are more loyal to islam than the U.S. The percentage was 63 percent. I wonder why this didnt find its way into the article ?
Peeeeeewww, something stinks here. !

Your claim was that you can't be a Muslim unless you agree with sharia law.

My position is that there are a lot of Muslims who don't agree with sharia law and don't want it as a government rule.

The logical fallacy you committed is called the "no true Scotsman fallacy"

Example: Angus declares that Scotsmen do not put sugar on their porridge, to which Lachlan points out that he is a Scotsman and puts sugar on his porridge. Furious, like a true Scot, Angus yells that no true Scotsman sugars his porridge.

 

[SirRumpole]

What are you talking about?

I am saying if a group of Muslims purchase some land, do all the planning and stuff correctly, but then they are denied their rights to operate a mosque simply because they are Muslim, where if they had been a group of Catholics they would have been allowed.

In that case you would be right.

I'm talking about a case where there are rival bids for purchase of public land ie either for a Catholic Church or a mosque, then someone has to win and it's usually the one that represents more people.

 

[Value Collector]

Where are the moderate, normal, everyday kinda Muslims?

Just going about their business, not making the news because they don't hold extreme beliefs.

 

[Value Collector]

In that case you would be right.

I'm talking about a case where there are rival bids for purchase of public land ie either for a Catholic Church or a mosque, then someone has to win and it's usually the one that represents more people.

Does that even happen?

And in any case, it should be the one paying the most dollars to buy the public land, because none of the religions represent a large enough amount of the population that they should be subsidised by acquiring land at cheaper than market rates.

 

[SirRumpole]

it should be the one paying the most dollars to buy the public land,

That would be the Catholics then.