Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

[luutzu]

Some of you are missing the point by focussing on terrorism.

We in the west have developed a society with a particular legal and social order. I think we agree that by and large, we like our society, it works reasonably well for us. In particular, women have won the right to be viewed as equals and to behave and dress as they see fit without being subjugated by a patriarchal and misogynistic male establishment.

We have our common and statutory law which for the most part, benefits all as a whole.

Like it or not, our cultural traditions are based on Judeo/Christian value systems.

Terrorism is only one small aspect, the evil of Islam, as far as we are concerned, is its cultural and religious incongruity. Once a critical mass of Muslims infiltrates an area/city/country, things change **and from our perspective** not in a good way.

So you clowns trying to defend Islam in the name of tolerance can go hopping to Hell as far as I'm concerned, you are vandals, the enemy within. I for one am interested in defending our culture.

Focusing on Terrorism is missing the point? We should focus on what makes Australia White, Christian and Jewish?

btw, since when did Western Christian countries welcome Jews? More than a few of Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany were turned back right?

Since when did Christian European countries welcome each other anyway? The Christian kingdoms were at each other's throat long before the Third Reich came along wanting to put an end to it - in the same way some of our enlightened people wants to do: Pure blood and superior cultural heritage.

All culture and people have things they should be proud of, they also have things they blame on their old folks and crazy uncles for... As that first Jewish Christian guy said, let those without sin cast the first stone.

Now back to the less important issue of terrorism... it's all Islam's fault - that is why not all Muslim in Western countries commit terrorism.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Some of you are missing the point by focussing on terrorism.

We in the west have developed a society with a particular legal and social order. I think we agree that by and large, we like our society, it works reasonably well for us. In particular, women have won the right to be viewed as equals and to behave and dress as they see fit without being subjugated by a patriarchal and misogynistic male establishment.

We have our common and statutory law which for the most part, benefits all as a whole.

Like it or not, our cultural traditions are based on Judeo/Christian value systems.

Terrorism is only one small aspect, the evil of Islam, as far as we are concerned, is its cultural and religious incongruity. Once a critical mass of Muslims infiltrates an area/city/country, things change **and from our perspective** not in a good way.
.

In present day Australian lives that is the simple majority belief. We love the freedom this society has and reject any group (i.e. political parties) that threatens our "Australian way of life". People tell me that if immigrants don't like the Australian laws and "Australian way of life" then put them on the next plane back to whence they came.

 

[CanOz]

In present day Australian lives that is the simple majority belief. We love the freedom this society has and reject any group (i.e. political parties) that threatens our "Australian way of life". People tell me that if immigrants don't like the Australian laws and "Australian way of life" then put them on the next plane back to whence they came.

The problem with that, is that it is unconstitutional.

 

[wayneL]

Focusing on Terrorism is missing the point? We should focus on what makes Australia White, Christian and Jewish?

btw, since when did Western Christian countries welcome Jews? More than a few of Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany were turned back right?

Since when did Christian European countries welcome each other anyway? The Christian kingdoms were at each other's throat long before the Third Reich came along wanting to put an end to it - in the same way some of our enlightened people wants to do: Pure blood and superior cultural heritage.

All culture and people have things they should be proud of, they also have things they blame on their old folks and crazy uncles for... As that first Jewish Christian guy said, let those without sin cast the first stone.

Now back to the less important issue of terrorism... it's all Islam's fault - that is why not all Muslim in Western countries commit terrorism.

Where did I say white luu? Mate you can give yourself an uppercut for putting words in my mouth...and another one for completely missing the point, or if you are intentionally twisting what I said, you can go straight to the hell people like you are intent on creating.

 

[Wysiwyg]

The problem with that, is that it is unconstitutional.

Yes in reality that doesn't happen so tolerance is the best we do. The British example of immigration with an ulterior motive by one particular religious affiliation is something to learn from.

 

[luutzu]

Where did I say white luu? Mate you can give yourself an uppercut for putting words in my mouth...and another one for completely missing the point, or if you are intentionally twisting what I said, you can go straight to the hell people like you are intent on creating.

What colour were you referring to with "Judeo/Christian" value system?

You're not going to tell me you mean all colours since there are Asian, Indian, African, Arabs who are also Christian/Catholics.

But alright, by Judeo/Christian you mean the "good" and civilised way of life.

It is good and civilised to blame and potential harm innocent people just because they look or pray like other criminals and psychopaths?

Stop being dramatic Sifu... doesn't take much to see what make a country a hell of a place to live - for everyone. This can be Nazi Germany, Jewish Israel, Islamic Iran, Saudi Arabia, Communist China/VN/Cambodia...

What does all those countries have in common? Keeping their country pure against a certain group or two; putting certain ideology above the rights of minorities and undesirables.

Are we more civilised because we like Jews and hate Muslims? Because we love Capitalist instead of taking their property or putting bags around their head?

Maybe not hating all Muslim is not about being idealistic and unpatriotic; but a practical and honest way of preserving these "way of life" and noble culture we're all hyping about.

 

[SirRumpole]

Are we more civilised because we like Jews and hate Muslims? Because we love Capitalist instead of taking their property or putting bags around their head?

It's not uncivilised to point out the flaws in religious ideology which has been done many times in relation to both Christianity and Islam.

They are both mind fuddling and ancient ideas which may have been good for law and order in their time but have been superceded by science and secularism.

That's not to say that science and secularism are flawless, neither of these have much to say about morality, but religion has to change with the times and not continue to punish people for being homosexual, marrying out of their religion, being raped, being a woman, wanting an education or not wanting to be kept in an intellectual straight jacket by theology.

 

[luutzu]

It's not uncivilised to point out the flaws in religious ideology which has been done many times in relation to both Christianity and Islam.

They are both mind fuddling and ancient ideas which may have been good for law and order in their time but have been superceded by science and secularism.

That's not to say that science and secularism are flawless, neither of these have much to say about morality, but religion has to change with the times and not continue to punish people for being homosexual, marrying out of their religion, being raped, being a woman, wanting an education or not wanting to be kept in an intellectual straight jacket by theology.

As our friend VC have said many times, advocating the rights of Muslims to pray to their Allah does not mean we condone whatever violence it may preach; it's not to say that Islam is beyond criticism; it never said that all Muslims are good and great.

Fair enough to point to the flaws and backwardness of Islam... but it's dishonest to do that and at the same time turn blind eyes to our own religion.

If we're honest about it, Christianity or Judaism (and all other religion) hasn't at all upgraded its text to be more enlightened. There's still the same crazy stuff that's been there since God spoke to a few of them chosen ME guys... and if we want to generalise the crazy Muslim clerics and Islamic fundamentalist, let's not ignore the crazy Christian and Jewish clerics and its fundamentalist - they're all just as crazy and barbaric.

 

[SirRumpole]

As our friend VC have said many times, advocating the rights of Muslims to pray to their Allah does not mean we condone whatever violence it may preach; it's not to say that Islam is beyond criticism; it never said that all Muslims are good and great.

Fair enough to point to the flaws and backwardness of Islam... but it's dishonest to do that and at the same time turn blind eyes to our own religion.

If we're honest about it, Christianity or Judaism (and all other religion) hasn't at all upgraded its text to be more enlightened. There's still the same crazy stuff that's been there since God spoke to a few of them chosen ME guys... and if we want to generalise the crazy Muslim clerics and Islamic fundamentalist, let's not ignore the crazy Christian and Jewish clerics and its fundamentalist - they're all just as crazy and barbaric.

You say "our own" religion, but a lot of people these days don't identify with any religion. Our forefathers may have been Christian , but that doesn't mean we have to be, that's one difference that we have to Islam.

As I said before, Christianity has two parts, the Old Testament with all the violent stuff and the New Testament which significantly modifies the Old, but is by no means faultless in itself.

Anyway, it's about time we did away with all religion, it's an intellectual prison as I said before as well.

 

[CanOz]

You say "our own" religion, but a lot of people these days don't identify with any religion. Our forefathers may have been Christian , but that doesn't mean we have to be, that's one difference that we have to Islam.

As I said before, Christianity has two parts, the Old Testament with all the violent stuff and the New Testament which significantly modifies the Old, but is by no means faultless in itself.

Anyway, it's about time we did away with all religion, it's an intellectual prison as I said before as well.

Perhaps we should change the name of the thread to "Is all religion inherently evil??"

 

[SirRumpole]

Perhaps we should change the name of the thread to "Is all religion inherently evil??"

That's been discussed ad nauseum in these threads

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11201

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27938

 

[bellenuit]

But other cultures are free to do as they wish under the guidance of the constitution

That doesn't make it right or acceptable or not evil. A constitution based on Sharia law or even based on Islamic principles is inherently evil because it simply supports misogyny, suppression of homosexuals and women and violates the liberty of everyone by prohibiting freedom of religion and freedom of expression. Implicit in your arguments is that the people living in those societies want those restrictions, but that assumes their opinion has been formed in the absence of indoctrination and intimidation, which is patently not the case. Do you think those Afghan women shown in Western dress in the 50s in another post on this thread want to be clothed from head to foot in a blue bag. They have been forced to dress that way and those who try to do otherwise get a digger load of rocks dumped on them. Do you think if asked whether they support that barbaric mode of dress they would say anything other than Yes, when they face the same fate for just expressing an opinion contrary to what the morality police dictate.

If the West doesn't speak out and oppose those evils, who will. Instead we have the regressive left acting as apologists for the evils of those societies. Saying that it is OK because it is part of their culture or that their religion allows it is a cop out.

What exactly can your definition of evil be, if you think Islam is not evil.

 

[CanOz]

That doesn't make it right or acceptable or not evil. A constitution based on Sharia law or even based on Islamic principles is inherently evil because it simply supports misogyny, suppression of homosexuals and women and violates the liberty of everyone by prohibiting freedom of religion and freedom of expression. Implicit in your arguments is that the people living in those societies want those restrictions, but that assumes their opinion has been formed in the absence of indoctrination and intimidation, which is patently not the case. Do you think those Afghan women shown in Western dress in the 50s in another post on this thread want to be clothed from head to foot in a blue bag. They have been forced to dress that way and those who try to do otherwise get a digger load of rocks dumped on them. Do you think if asked whether they support that barbaric mode of dress they would say anything other than Yes, when they face the same fate for just expressing an opinion contrary to what the morality police dictate.

If the West doesn't speak out and oppose those evils, who will. Instead we have the regressive left acting as apologists for the evils of those societies. Saying that it is OK because it is part of their culture or that their religion allows it is a cop out.

What exactly can your definition of evil be, if you think Islam is not evil.

Nah, thats not what i meant. I meant that all religions of Australians are free to do as they wish under the law of the Australian Constitution. Pretty sure that doesn't include misogyny, suppression of homosexuals and women etc.etc.

 

[wayneL]

What colour were you referring to with "Judeo/Christian" value system?

You're not going to tell me you mean all colours since there are Asian, Indian, African, Arabs who are also Christian/Catholics.

But alright, by Judeo/Christian you mean the "good" and civilised way of life.

It is good and civilised to blame and potential harm innocent people just because they look or pray like other criminals and psychopaths?

Stop being dramatic Sifu... doesn't take much to see what make a country a hell of a place to live - for everyone. This can be Nazi Germany, Jewish Israel, Islamic Iran, Saudi Arabia, Communist China/VN/Cambodia...

What does all those countries have in common? Keeping their country pure against a certain group or two; putting certain ideology above the rights of minorities and undesirables.

Are we more civilised because we like Jews and hate Muslims? Because we love Capitalist instead of taking their property or putting bags around their head?

Maybe not hating all Muslim is not about being idealistic and unpatriotic; but a practical and honest way of preserving these "way of life" and noble culture we're all hyping about.

I really really hate it when people twist something into a racial argument. It's not. It's about culture and colour or race is incidental... our culture luutz.

Don't be so emotionally invested in your argument that you have to invent rubbish to justify it, because that's what you're doing, twisting words and arguments so they become unrecognisable to their original meaning and intention.

It's mendacious crap and you know it.

 

[luutzu]

I really really hate it when people twist something into a racial argument. It's not. It's about culture and colour or race is incidental... our culture luutz.

Don't be so emotionally invested in your argument that you have to invent rubbish to justify it, because that's what you're doing, twisting words and arguments so they become unrecognisable to their original meaning and intention.

It's mendacious crap and you know it.

I don't know what "mendacious" is so I don't know what you're on about.

I'm not a Muslim, not an Arab; don't have any friend who are either of those; and I don't think my arguments are illogical... so I don't see where emotion play any part in it.

It's pretty hard to not be considered racist when you say you don't like a person because of their religion and culture.

But true, you may not be a racist, but you do say racist stuff. Fair enough?

 

[qldfrog]

Nah, thats not what i meant. I meant that all religions of Australians are free to do as they wish under the law of the Australian Constitution. Pretty sure that doesn't include misogyny, suppression of homosexuals and women etc.etc.

And as long people assume Islam is like any other religion (aka the ones they know/belog) and forget Islam is ALSO a code of laws ruling your everyday life, we will miss the point;
If you are a muslim believer then you will need to include misogyny, suppression of homosexuals and women etc.etc.
And this is the dimension so many here are unable to even comprehend;
Life is too short ....You can bring a donkey to water but you can not force him to drink is a saying we have in my native culture...

 

[wayneL]

I don't know what "mendacious" is so I don't know what you're on about.

I'm not a Muslim, not an Arab; don't have any friend who are either of those; and I don't think my arguments are illogical... so I don't see where emotion play any part in it.

It's pretty hard to not be considered racist when you say you don't like a person because of their religion and culture.

But true, you may not be a racist, but you do say racist stuff. Fair enough?

You are absolutely, comprehensively wrong... And totally despicable for playing the race card.

I have nothing against Islam, which is a religion, not a race of people, which makes racism a moot point as race is only mentioned by you, not me. I couldn't actually give two sh1ts what race people are, nor do I believe do the vast majority of Australians.

I actually find people of different races and culture interesting and love the interaction. Missus was born and raised in Kenya and also has great respect for the peoples she knew there.

Probably my best ever friend is a secularized Indian Muslim, separated only by our mutual itchy feet syndrome.

So Grasshopper, you can stick your disingenuous accusations of racism where the sun don't shine.

However, if folks want to practice Islam, as is their right it should not impact negatively on the those around them, it should not impinge on any one elses right to practice their religion, non religion and/or culture.

This is the crux of the problem which you unintelligently refuse to accept because of your poisonous extreme leftist ideology.

Libertarianism still has hierarchical considerations, the practice of one's liberty cannot be at the expense if someone elses.

This is what you are, bizarrely and bewilderingly proposing and supporting.

 

[Tisme]

Perhaps we should change the name of the thread to "Is all religion inherently evil??"

That just admits that you think Islam is a religion and not a complete social system of which the God part is only a bit player. It has politics, legal, worship, literacy, health, etc integrated into it, so I don't belief it qualifies for constitution recognition due to an impossible separation of powers.

 

[luutzu]

You are absolutely, comprehensively wrong... And totally despicable for playing the race card.

I have nothing against Islam, which is a religion, not a race of people, which makes racism a moot point as race is only mentioned by you, not me. I couldn't actually give two sh1ts what race people are, nor do I believe do the vast majority of Australians.

I actually find people of different races and culture interesting and love the interaction. Missus was born and raised in Kenya and also has great respect for the peoples she knew there.

Probably my best ever friend is a secularized Indian Muslim, separated only by our mutual itchy feet syndrome.

So Grasshopper, you can stick your disingenuous accusations of racism where the sun don't shine.

However, if folks want to practice Islam, as is their right it should not impact negatively on the those around them, it should not impinge on any one elses right to practice their religion, non religion and/or culture.

This is the crux of the problem which you unintelligently refuse to accept because of your poisonous extreme leftist ideology.

Libertarianism still has hierarchical considerations, the practice of one's liberty cannot be at the expense if someone elses.

This is what you are, bizarrely and bewilderingly proposing and supporting.

Whatever you call not liking Islam and Muslims because it's Islam and Muslim, it is still prejudice. You can't say I like Christians and Jews, like their culture and values; and I don't particularly like Islam and Muslims... you can't say that then say you're not prejudicial.

So alright, your beliefs aren't racist, they are still bigoted aren't they Sifu?

That is not to say you're a racist or a bigot, just your opinions on Muslims and Islam happen to be bigoted.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "secularized Indian Muslim". You mean a Muslim who does not practice Islam too much right? Like a Catholic with many wives, or a Catholic who uses contraception and get a divorce if things don't work out.

Maybe a less strict Muslim is still a Muslim... maybe it is possible that Muslims are generally moderate and goes to Mosque and pray to Allah for the same reason most people of other faith also go do their prayers for.

You can criticise and reject Islam all you want, no one will tell you you can't do it - not me. But you can't start criticism by defining Islam as an evil, barbaric cult teaching its followers to blow themselves up and murdering innocent people; and any part of Islam that doesn't teach that is not really Islam.

That's not what criticism is, not in an academic/intellectual sense. Leave the "just point out the bad bits" criticism to the street talk Sifu.



So let's criticise Islam... are there parts in its various books that are backward and regressive; are there practises it preaches that the world and Muslims could do without; are Muslim Koran-basher who are just insane; are there fairy tales and fancy talks of miracles and other nonsense.... Sure there are.

Is that what Islam is all about? Are all Muslim crazy lunatics hell bend on murdering infidels?

Are there no crazy, fairytale nonsense in the Torah or the Bible? Are all Jewish and Christian people sanely? Are there no violent and barbaric teaching and practises in the Judaeo/Christian value system?

Gotta be fair and balanced when we criticise. And pointing out the bad and nasty bits in others but completely ignoring our own, or completely dismissive of the good and wise in other's religion and culture... that's not criticism; that's just kicking dirt in their face.

 

[Macquack]

Terrorism is only one small aspect, the evil of Islam, as far as we are concerned, is its cultural and religious incongruity. Once a critical mass of Muslims infiltrates an area/city/country, things change **and from our perspective** not in a good way.

So you clowns trying to defend Islam in the name of tolerance can go hopping to Hell as far as I'm concerned, you are vandals, the enemy within. I for one am interested in defending our culture.

I have nothing against Islam

Could have fooled me.