Christmas

[Tink]

It is the values you live by, VC --- our Christian values, our Christian nation, and our Christian public holiday.
What this country was built on.

 

[bellenuit]

Some Prominent Atheists Express Their Views on Christmas

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...mas-richard-dawkins_n_8860248.html?1450942995

 

[Value Collector]

It is the values you live by, VC --- our Christian values, our Christian nation, and our Christian public holiday.
What this country was built on.

View attachment 65395

Which "Christian values" do I live by? any values I live by are secular, and can be noted in many cultures not just Christian.

This is a secular nation, look at the constitution.

And again, it's a national public holiday, nothing says it's only for Christians.

 

[Tink]

You may not be Christian, VC, but our country and our history, is a Christian culture.

I see Richard Dawkins doesn't deny his past ....

"I have no problem with Christmas and no desire to rain on the Christian parade," says Richard Dawkins, who loves carols, but only "real carols about Jesus... NOT fake carols about Santa or reindeer or the loathsome Jingle Bells".

Yes. I am happy to live in a Christian country and I was brought up in a Christian culture.

 

[Smurf1976]

if you want to raise your kids in a religion send them to a faith school or just take them to church on weekends.

I've always considered religion (any of them) to be something that adults should make their own decisions about and not something that should be forced on children.

Let kids be kids I say. No need to force religion or politics on them at an early age.

 

[luutzu]

You may not be Christian, VC, but our country and our history, is a Christian culture.

I see Richard Dawkins doesn't deny his past ....

"I have no problem with Christmas and no desire to rain on the Christian parade," says Richard Dawkins, who loves carols, but only "real carols about Jesus... NOT fake carols about Santa or reindeer or the loathsome Jingle Bells".

Yes. I am happy to live in a Christian country and I was brought up in a Christian culture.

I think maybe you're being a bit unfair on VC.

Maybe should thank him for testing your faith in Christ; bringing you closer to God's teaching about not throttling people's neck or speak the Lord's name in vain

---
I think we all want Australia to be a free, fair, strong, peaceful, innovative [?]... To have an Australia with all that is good mean it should not be a "Christian" country. Nothing wrong with Christianity in that aspect. But it shouldn't be "Christian" because to be a Christian state mean it must exclude or lower the status of other Faith and other culture and people; and it put God above Law - and as it has been ever since, if God is above the Law we'll have High Priests and son of Heaven standing between Man and God, and rule with absolute power.

So any Theocratic State will necessarily be weaker than a multi-cultural, a democratic one.

One, a Theocratic state will mean policies are made by lying fools who make decisions based on ideology rather than rationality... wait, that's the same as the current Free Market mob.

OK, one... to put one religion above another mean certain policies will discriminate - discriminate against those non-believers, or believers of false prophets and weirdo "gods". Discriminate against their own people because the good book told them it's cool to discriminate...

So a state will then extinguish the potentials of its homosexuals, its women, its non-standard skin colour folks.

So the potentials and contributions of many of its citizens are ignored. Then effort must be put in to make sure such laws are adhered to. So you'd create propaganda, you encourage differences... then you have to police and secure the public against retaliation and hatred... and when taken too far, you'll get idiots cheering at the death of a toddler from act of terrorism.

So in advocating that separation of state from Church... it's not to destroy Australia or its culture, it's to preserve and promote what is good about it: Sun, Surf, babes in bikinis, Lebs stopping their cars literally in the middle of the road to catch up on old friends and Asians get to call them bloody aholes.

 

[bellenuit]

I've always considered religion (any of them) to be something that adults should make their own decisions about and not something that should be forced on children.

Let kids be kids I say. No need to force religion or politics on them at an early age.

 

[SirRumpole]

Fuñny how people who rail against religion don't seem to approve of abolishing religious holidays. Easter is not a holiday in the US , so why should it be here ? It and Christmas are simply a marketing opportunity for some businesses but cause a lot of disruption for other businesses. Ban the holidays, bah humbug. ☺

 

[bellenuit]

Fuñny how people who rail against religion don't seem to approve of abolishing religious holidays. Easter is not a holiday in the US , so why should it be here ? It and Christmas are simply a marketing opportunity for some businesses but cause a lot of disruption for other businesses. Ban the holidays, bah humbug. ☺

There is another way to look at it. We should be all entitled to the same amount of public holidays. In a secular society, one could say that all public holidays should only be associated with secular events; Labour Day, etc. However, Christians who wish to partake in religious ceremonies and festivities would be inconvenienced as they would need to take additional days off work to observe those rituals. By matching some public holidays with major Christian religious events, Christians are been afforded the opportunity to observe their rituals without needing to take additional days off work. Although this came about historically because when public holidays were initially decided upon, we were a predominantly Christian "observing" country, we are now predominantly a secular society.

So rather than Christians complaining that non-Christians and secularists also get public holidays that are based on Christian events, they should be thankful that non-Christians and secularists are willing to accomodate their religious observances when they could demand that as we have become a secular society, all holidays should only have secular associations.

It is similar to the Queens Birthday. Royalists complain that republicans are willing to take a holiday on that day rather than be appreciative that Australia still allocates a day to honour the Queen, even though a (possible) majority may have republican sympathies.

 

[luutzu]

Fuñny how people who rail against religion don't seem to approve of abolishing religious holidays. Easter is not a holiday in the US , so why should it be here ? It and Christmas are simply a marketing opportunity for some businesses but cause a lot of disruption for other businesses. Ban the holidays, bah humbug. ☺

They don't celebrate Easter there? Is there some sports or sales event already taking its place?

 

[luutzu]

There is another way to look at it. We should be all entitled to the same amount of public holidays. In a secular society, one could say that all public holidays should only be associated with secular events; Labour Day, etc. However, Christians who wish to partake in religious ceremonies and festivities would be inconvenienced as they would need to take additional days off work to observe those rituals. By matching some public holidays with major Christian religious events, Christians are been afforded the opportunity to observe their rituals without needing to take additional days off work. Although this came about historically because when public holidays were initially decided upon, we were a predominantly Christian "observing" country, we are now predominantly a secular society.

So rather than Christians complaining that non-Christians and secularists also get public holidays that are based on Christian events, they should be thankful that non-Christians and secularists are willing to accomodate their religious observances when they could demand that as we have become a secular society, all holidays should only have secular associations.

It is similar to the Queens Birthday. Royalists complain that republicans are willing to take a holiday on that day rather than be appreciative that Australia still allocates a day to honour the Queen, even though a (possible) majority may have republican sympathies.

Yup. Well put there.

Can I add that maybe Public celebration of Christmas and Christian holy days is the Politically Correct thing to do, not the legal thing that ought to be done.

 

[SirRumpole]

There is another way to look at it. We should be all entitled to the same amount of public holidays. In a secular society, one could say that all public holidays should only be associated with secular events; Labour Day, etc. However, Christians who wish to partake in religious ceremonies and festivities would be inconvenienced as they would need to take additional days off work to observe those rituals. By matching some public holidays with major Christian religious events, Christians are been afforded the opportunity to observe their rituals without needing to take additional days off work. Although this came about historically because when public holidays were initially decided upon, we were a predominantly Christian "observing" country, we are now predominantly a secular society.

So rather than Christians complaining that non-Christians and secularists also get public holidays that are based on Christian events, they should be thankful that non-Christians and secularists are willing to accomodate their religious observances when they could demand that as we have become a secular society, all holidays should only have secular associations.

It is similar to the Queens Birthday. Royalists complain that republicans are willing to take a holiday on that day rather than be appreciative that Australia still allocates a day to honour the Queen, even though a (possible) majority may have republican sympathies.

I don't really agree with that. Add the public holiday entitlements to peoples leave and let them take it when they want. It would cause less disruption to everyone that way.

 

[bellenuit]

I don't really agree with that. Add the public holiday entitlements to peoples leave and let them take it when they want. It would cause less disruption to everyone that way.

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with. You are suggesting a new method of allocating public holidays, which I agree has possibly some merit, though downsides as well.

I was referring to Christians being unreasonable in suggesting that secularists are hypocritically piggy backing on their religious holidays, when in fact secularists are simply being accomodating to Christians by accepting that some public holidays are matched with religious holidays so that Christians are free to partake in their religious festivities. That came about for historical reasons, but being a largely secular society there is no reason to necessarily continue that way, so Christians (some) shouldn't be so smug in their attitudes when in fact they are the beneficiaries of the public holiday system in that it works to mainly accomodate them.

 

[McLovin]

Fuñny how people who rail against religion don't seem to approve of abolishing religious holidays. Easter is not a holiday in the US , so why should it be here ? It and Christmas are simply a marketing opportunity for some businesses but cause a lot of disruption for other businesses. Ban the holidays, bah humbug. ☺

With the exception of Christmas (for reasons explained below), religious public holidays in the US, like here, are done at the state level. Some states recognise Good Friday as a public holiday. The heavily religious aspect of Good Friday prevents it being a US federal holiday because of the establishment clause of the First Amendment. And to answer your next question, Christmas is considered a cultural, secular celebration so does not violate the establishment clause.

Christmas Day and Easter in Australia is a state holiday, because it could otherwise fall foul of the Constitution, although you could apply the same reasoning to Christmas being secular here.

The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth

 

[McLovin]

With the exception of Christmas (for reasons explained below), religious public holidays in the US, like here, are done at the state level.

And to add to this, the states often have to hide the true nature of the holiday so that it is not construed as a religious holiday, this problem does not exist in Australia because the Constitution applies only to the Commonwealth.

So you could for example have a "Church of New South Wales" with the governor as its head, but not a "Church of Australia" with the GG, or Queen, as its head.

 

[Smurf1976]

Add the public holiday entitlements to peoples leave and let them take it when they want. It would cause less disruption to everyone that way.

Works until someone from the political Right starts running around comparing the number of days leave an Australian worker gets versus some other country, conveniently "forgetting" that public holidays were given up in order to increase leave days.

 

[Tink]

No, Luutzu, I am not being unfair.

This country was built on our Christian Heritage.
As has been said, the Lord's Prayer is still said in Parliament.

Christmas is a part of our culture, our tradition and our history.
Leave it alone.

Of course people can celebrate as they choose, it is about family.

This all started with our pathetic Victorian Labor/Greens Government, and the state school system, when they tried to ban carols that have been a part of this country all along.

Christmas carol ban is out of tune with society.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...t=25726&page=6&p=893399&viewfull=1#post893399

They received a backlash from the public in disgust, and then they tried to back peddle, that it was not true.
More lies.

Christmas is about love, hope, joy and family.

Another beautiful Carol from the Nativity story.

 

[Tom32]

Because a non religious state school, should not be preaching a religion and it shouldn't be favoring one religion.

I am not in favor of the government funding religious schools either.

I think you have to look at the unintended consequence of the gov not funding private schools. I can afford 3x5k per annum for a private Christian school. So I pay this. The gov pays about 15k more in subsidy for my three kids.

If they were up the road at the state school the gov would be up for more.

I cannot afford 30k plus if gov withdrew support and I suspect I am not the only person in this marginal camp who would cop state education if the alternative cost too much.

Edit: I should add it was quite refreshing seeing the kids at their Christmas concert doing an old school Christmas themed concert with a bit of a moral / Christian message also. In my opinion religion, while not the only way to teach morals to kids, is quite effective at imbuing them within them.

 

[Tisme]

There is another way to look at it. We should be all entitled to the same amount of public holidays. In a secular society, one could say that all public holidays should only be associated with secular events; Labour Day, etc. However, Christians who wish to partake in religious ceremonies and festivities would be inconvenienced as they would need to take additional days off work to observe those rituals.

As recent as only a few years ago the public holidays were tested by the QLD Newman govt, which set out to dilute the Labour movement by playing politics with Labour Day and date.

One would have to be pretty naive to think the Liberal Party would endeavour to keep or even increase leisure time and holidays if there wasn't any religious significance attached. Their manifesto is very clear about the value of working class/labour resource/unions and driving low cost production models to compete with third world poverty nations. We don't even have a viable secondary industry anymore.

In the seventies we were being told to prepare ourselves for retirement at 55, a 32 hour week and too much leisure time as production and productivity increased due to our industry, automation and cleverness. The only ones who were clever were the public servants as the turns out; the same ones who have their hands in the till of the public monies... and I'm fairly certain they didn't achieve the benchmark working hours; that would mean doubling their effort.

 

[SirRumpole]

Works until someone from the political Right starts running around comparing the number of days leave an Australian worker gets versus some other country, conveniently "forgetting" that public holidays were given up in order to increase leave days.

Just shows how stoopid the political Right are.