Christmas

[Value Collector]

yea. but maybe that's because your Dad wouldn't want us on that verandah drinking his rum

I am sure you would be welcome if you brought some Rum and mussels to share, lol.

 

[Value Collector]

ah see.

So no clash of civilisation... just last man standing get to keep what's left then?

Ww1 explained if you are interested.

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd2ch4XV84s[/video]

 

[SirRumpole]

WWI, a great example of why not to believe politicians and why you should never volunteer for anything.

 

[Tisme]

and you are free to have what ever traditions you want, but why do you ant to force your traditions on others, other people have other traditions.

Why can't you just be happy with your own traditions, Why is it that Christians are never really happy until they believe society at large is following their traditions.

I have a tradition of sitting on my Dads verandah eating mussels and drinking rum, that makes me happy, but I am not going to try and make you do it, who are you to try and tell everyone else what they should be celebrating.

I'm starting to think you would be fertile material for a Dickensian novella about bah humbug.

 

[pixel]

I'm starting to think you would be fertile material for a Dickensian novella about bah humbug.

Ebenezer's "bah, humbug" was only objectionable at the time when Dickens wrote it. Society in Victorian England was much stricter than it is today. Ideas and expressions that failed to conform to the strict interpretation of Judaeo-Christian morals were suppressed - even well into the 20th century.
In that kind of restrictive environment, a novelist could only get away with Scrooge's utterings as a precursor to a conversion with the aid of nightmares and moralising sky-fairies.

Intellectuals capable of independent thought would have been well aware that Scrooge's thinking was indeed very widespread; they would have seen his conversion as sugar-coating used to keep the poor at bay, hoping for a better time in an imaginary afterlife. And the longer they were forbidden to express their thoughts in public, the stronger the pressure became, until a single far more antithetic manifesto broke the dam of suppression.

Isn't it ironic that Marx and Engels lived and shaped their ideas in London, but published "Das Kapital" in Germany. (Bakunin translated it into Russian, and it was in Russia where it found the weakest spot.)

At this day and age, nobody in their right mind will get upset about an outspoken Ebenezer Scrooge. Nor will they get upset about somebody expressing Victorian morals. The overriding theme today is Tolerance of Differences. Only a small minority of extremists continue to take offense if they don't have it all their way.

 

[Tink]

VC, it was you that said Christmas songs should be banned in public.
It is your mob trying to remove nativity scenes.
What threat do you have with a baby in a manger?

Who is trying to control people and how they think?
Your totalitarian mob.
They even try to tell us how to speak.

Christmas has been here longer than your politically correct rubbish.
The problem with these progressives, they go along trying to destroy the good things in this country, that have been here for many years.

 

[Plan B]

Love it Tink! Best Christmas song ever!

 

[Tisme]

VC, it was you that said Christmas songs should be banned in public.
It is your mob trying to remove nativity scenes.
What threat do you have with a baby in a manger?

Who is trying to control people and how they think?
Your totalitarian mob.
They even try to tell us how to speak.

Christmas has been here longer than your politically correct rubbish.
The problem with these progressives, they go along trying to destroy the good things in this country, that have been here for many years.

Vandals you reckon Tink? Doing to our foundations what ISIS did to Palmyra?

 

[Tisme]

Ebenezer's "bah, humbug" was only objectionable at the time when Dickens wrote it. Society in Victorian England was much stricter than it is today. Ideas and expressions that failed to conform to the strict interpretation of Judaeo-Christian morals were suppressed - even well into the 20th century.
In that kind of restrictive environment, a novelist could only get away with Scrooge's utterings as a precursor to a conversion with the aid of nightmares and moralising sky-fairies.

Intellectuals capable of independent thought would have been well aware that Scrooge's thinking was indeed very widespread; they would have seen his conversion as sugar-coating used to keep the poor at bay, hoping for a better time in an imaginary afterlife. And the longer they were forbidden to express their thoughts in public, the stronger the pressure became, until a single far more antithetic manifesto broke the dam of suppression.

Isn't it ironic that Marx and Engels lived and shaped their ideas in London, but published "Das Kapital" in Germany. (Bakunin translated it into Russian, and it was in Russia where it found the weakest spot.)

At this day and age, nobody in their right mind will get upset about an outspoken Ebenezer Scrooge. Nor will they get upset about somebody expressing Victorian morals. The overriding theme today is Tolerance of Differences. Only a small minority of extremists continue to take offense if they don't have it all their way.

I'm not too sure if that was a sermon for my benefit Pixel, but from extensive observation and with great modesty, I have no doubt I would be the most progressive thinking person on this board. And as the doyen of all things important to me, I would say that to know your future you must embrace the past, not kill it, not deny it and certainly not make it a jigsaw piece that is vague recollection of its original shape.

Nobody likes a grump and if that's what you get when you wipe away parts of your social tolerance/respect then the exercise is an abject failure.

My credentials are well aired here and while I have a hard time with phantom gods and the like, I do not believe for one moment that the human psyche will ever rid itself of the need to believe in some deity to fill a void that the brain seems to have reserved for such things. While I can comfortably divorce myself from the skyfairy notion, others seem to have to work hard at it and put great effort into learning how not to believe ... they are the bah humbugs I was referring to (like welded on Lib/Lab/Grn party faithful).

Remember Jesus loves you (but Daesh hates your guts)

 

[luutzu]

I'm not too sure if that was a sermon for my benefit Pixel, but from extensive observation and with great modesty, I have no doubt I would be the most progressive thinking person on this board. And as the doyen of all things important to me, I would say that to know your future you must embrace the past, not kill it, not deny it and certainly not make it a jigsaw piece that is vague recollection of its original shape.

Nobody likes a grump and if that's what you get when you wipe away parts of your social tolerance/respect then the exercise is an abject failure.

My credentials are well aired here and while I have a hard time with phantom gods and the like, I do not believe for one moment that the human psyche will ever rid itself of the need to believe in some deity to fill a void that the brain seems to have reserved for such things. While I can comfortably divorce myself from the skyfairy notion, others seem to have to work hard at it and put great effort into learning how not to believe ... they are the bah humbugs I was referring to (like welded on Lib/Lab/Grn party faithful).

Remember Jesus loves you (but Daesh hates your guts)

Yes. Very modest, and deep too.

 

[luutzu]

VC, it was you that said Christmas songs should be banned in public.
It is your mob trying to remove nativity scenes.
What threat do you have with a baby in a manger?

Who is trying to control people and how they think?
Your totalitarian mob.
They even try to tell us how to speak.

Christmas has been here longer than your politically correct rubbish.
The problem with these progressives, they go along trying to destroy the good things in this country, that have been here for many years.

He probably mean Public/Government places - not public as in public public, say a park or your front yard or your Church.

I think such separation of Church and State is what build great nations such as ours.

The founding fathers here were smart enough to recognise that the Church and its priesthoods have way too much power and influence, and they can't be reasoned with because their boss is the Man upstairs and no one can climb that stairs and come back to Earth. So that's no good.

So when they saw their chance, the separate Church and its high priests from free and able men just like themselves to make rational, free market decisions that benefit all men (like themselves).

So technically, Public buildings and gov't institution should not celebrate and promote one religion over another. But since most in power are Christian, and most voters are also Christians... went off a tangent somewhere

Merry Christmas Tink.

 

[luutzu]

I am sure you would be welcome if you brought some Rum and mussels to share, lol.

Ah yes, sharing. I'm not very good at that

Have a good one VC. I'm taking mine to see Star Wars.

 

[pixel]

He probably mean Public/Government places - not public as in public public, say a park or your front yard or your Church.

I think such separation of Church and State is what build great nations such as ours.

+1, luutzu
That's precisely my idea of Tolerance.

So technically, Public buildings and gov't institution should not celebrate and promote one religion over another. But since most in power are Christian, and most voters are also Christians... went off a tangent somewhere

Slight modification: I'd say "most in power are Scrooge, pretending to have been led back to Christian values" and a great many politicians believe that more of their constituents will vote for them if they maintain a Christian facade.

I also don't believe that "Merry Christmas" is offensive to anyone (except possibly some extreme nutters like ISIL). The calendar displays the upcoming holidays as "Christmas". That's the proper English name, and I'm all in favour of retaining English as Australia's official language. As to why some social engineers tried to replace the reference, I can only think of PC gone mad: Someone must have spent a lot of time trying to find a situation and alien mindset where a hypothetical offense might be perceived. In order to find an excuse for their drawing money from the Public Purse, they then suggested "Let's drop this and that just in case a non-Australian, non-English speaking person might feel uncomfortable hearing it." That's the kind of thinking that even led to the removal of Christian icons from wards in St John of God Hospitals. How stupid is that?!? In order to avoid an imaginary hypothetical patient feeling uncomfortable, they deprive thousands of the comfort they may derive from the familiar cross or icon.

I exchange Christmas and New Year's greetings with friends around the world, regardless whether they belong to any faith or none. Not a single one has objected, everyone keeps responding in kind, be they Hindu, Chinese, Jewish, or Muslim. They might, however, and I certainly would, object if someone took the friendly salutation as an excuse to proselytise and stuff their own brand of religious zeal down the recipient's throat. Think Jehova's Witnesses or Mormons knocking at the door offering "Merry Christmas".
That's no longer a friendly salutation.

 

[Value Collector]

VC, it was you that said Christmas songs should be banned in public.
It is your mob trying to remove nativity scenes.
What threat do you have with a baby in a manger?

Who is trying to control people and how they think?
Your totalitarian mob.
They even try to tell us how to speak.

Christmas has been here longer than your politically correct rubbish.
The problem with these progressives, they go along trying to destroy the good things in this country, that have been here for many years.

Nope, I never said ban carols in public, I said if public schools want to sing them they should choose the secular ones though, and not use the event to preach to children.

Have all the nativity scenes you want at your home, your church, your business, I just don't want the government funding them unless they are prepared to fund all religious things including the satanic temples and church of the flying spaghetti monsters, also keep them out of schools unless you are using it as part of a broad based religious history thing and you are not preaching.

I am not controlling you, just sticking up for the separation of church and state.

 

[Value Collector]

Merry Christmas isn't offensive, but it's exclusive, by all means say merry Christmas, even I say merry Christmas when talking to people I know who celebrate it.

but the further away from the actual date, and the less I know some one, the more likely I am to say a more broad greeting, because not everyone celebrates Christmas, not even all Christians, so I don't want to limit my cheer to a portion of the crowd, if I am sending out correspondence to a wide range of people I don't know, or putting up a sign for public viewing etc, I will make it a "happy holidays" or " seasons greetings" type thing.

how ever if I some one is openly celebrating Christmas, I will say merry Christmas, especially if Christmas is pretty close.

This time of year is a great time, I don't want to leave people out, and in my opinion if I wish a customer happy holidays, and they glare back and say in an aggressive tone "it's Merry Christmas" then they are the ones being anti holiday spirit, not me.

 

[SirRumpole]

This time of year is a great time, I don't want to leave people out,

Everyone gets a holiday over Christmas so nobody gets left out, but it seems that a lot of conscientious objectors are still joining the army.

Should we also have public holidays for Ramadin and Passover and any other religious festivals ?

Why not ? Bring it on !

What holidays do satanists observe VC ? Saturnalia ? Let's have a public holiday for that.

Otherwise I wouldn't mind abolishing all public holidays and just let people take their leave when they want to. Christians could observe Christmas and Easter if they like, same with other religions observing their holy days.

The problem I have with Christmas holidays is that the country closes down between Christmas and New Year because most people take that time off due to the short space between the public holidays. Getting rid of public holidays altogether would reduce that stasis period and let people organise their own holidays to suit themselves.

 

[Tink]

Thanks, Plan B. One of my favourite Christmas songs too, and the true essence of Christmas, in my view.

Thanks, Luutzu, Merry Christmas to you too.
I enjoy reading your posts, whether we agree or don't agree, it is good that we live in a free country, and we can express how we feel.

Agree, Tisme, our history and our past, in my view, are just as important as our future.

And as the doyen of all things important to me, I would say that to know your future you must embrace the past, not kill it, not deny it and certainly not make it a jigsaw piece that is vague recollection of its original shape.

 

[pixel]

Nope, I never said ban carols in public, I said if public schools want to sing them they should choose the secular ones though, and not use the event to preach to children.

Have all the nativity scenes you want at your home, your church, your business, I just don't want the government funding them unless they are prepared to fund all religious things including the satanic temples and church of the flying spaghetti monsters, also keep them out of schools unless you are using it as part of a broad based religious history thing and you are not preaching.

I am not controlling you, just sticking up for the separation of church and state.

+100%

 

[Value Collector]

Love it Tink! Best Christmas song ever!

I think I prefer Jingle bells Rock, especially if there are some girls in sexy cute xmas outfits dancing to it, lol.

 

[Tink]

Good to see our Vic Liberals standing up for our history and our traditions.

The State Government's assault on our mainstream values at Christmas is appalling.
This ban on Christmas Carols in State schools is yet another absurd example of political correctness weakening important traditions that our society have embraced for generations.
Post-modernist claims that their hollow ideology will create tolerance and a stronger society are false promises.
They offer no narrative or identity to bring people together.
The harmony of our society is held together by our traditions and history.
We forget our traditions at our own peril.