Christmas

[SirRumpole]

Thanks for raising Bill Gates. After having a brief look out of curiosity, his views on religion / spirituality are very reasonable and down to earth.

His Wikipedia page lists a few excerpts from an interview he did:





Sorry for the digression. I don't have anything to add to the thread topic at this stage.

Interesting quote from Gates. Apart from his religious participation his views are very close to mine, but I think that it does indicate the role of Faith in the development of morality.

Of course there are moral atheists no doubt about that, but I keep coming back to non religious countries like China that are trying to eliminate religion, and I see a society that his little morals or scruples at least at the government level. Corruption is rife, their companies produce shoddy goods, they only care about being caught and about their own advancement.

I hope we don't end up like that.

When money takes precedence over "doing the right thing", civilised society is doomed.

 

[Value Collector]

Look at how religion warps morality, religion isn't a source of morality, it hijacks it and clouds it, otherwise moral individuals can take on some crazy views.

Morality is secular.

Listen to this salvation army boss admit he thinks gays should be put to death.

but I keep coming back to non religious countries like China that are trying to eliminate religion, and I see a society that his little morals or scruples ]

What about the religious nations that will behead you or burn you for religious crimes or even just being gay, or stripping women of rights etc I think I would rather a secular democracy any day.

 

[trainspotter]

Look at how religion warps morality, religion isn't a source of morality, it hijacks it and clouds it, otherwise moral individuals can take on some crazy views.

Morality is secular.

Listen to this salvation army boss admit he thinks gays should be put to death.

Go push your GAY pride ****e somewhere else please VC ... This thread is about Christmas and what it entails

:topic

 

[trainspotter]

I was asking a serious question, you chose to answer it in a half assed way.

None, Praying does nothing.

Two hands working does a lot more than two hands praying as they say.

unless you have been raised to believe the nonsense in the first place, you don't need the nonsense to get through life.

You must work in the accounting department for the ATO right? They have no sense of humour either.

Praying gives people hope which in some peoples world is something.

So you are saying I should have stood up in 312 km/h cyclonic winds and started working and stopped praying?

Such a narrow minded view on how religion effects people in so many ways. Yes you think it is nonsense and in some cases you are right but that does not mean that people that believe in the values of a Christian upbringing are all wrong now does it? Bill Gates MUST be wrong !!

Some people live by the Decalogue and are happy to celebrate Christmas. Does it affect you and if so why are you so uptight about the way others live their life? It seems you are proselytizing just as much for your cause?

 

[Value Collector]

Go push your GAY pride ****e somewhere else please VC ... This thread is about Christmas and what it entails

:topic

lol, Gay pride, I don't think pointing out that some of the morals of a religious charities are quite warped can be thought of as Gay pride.

I am just showing these religious groups get held up as pillars for good morals, but when you lift the curtain you find that some of their beliefs are terrible, and if you could just get rid of the religious nonsense, they would be improved.

 

[SirRumpole]

What about the religious nations that will behead you or burn you for religious crimes or even just being gay, or stripping women of rights etc I think I would rather a secular democracy any day.

That happens in Australia does it ?

Some religions are way behind the times when it comes to human rights, but that doesn't mean they all are.

I may as well say all atheists are criminals because some of them are.

 

[Value Collector]

Praying gives people hope which in some peoples world is something.

?

False hope. its no different to lucky underpants.

So you are saying I should have stood up in 312 km/h cyclonic winds and started working and stopped praying?

Praying didn't add anything and possible took away your concentration.

If you are on plane, and the pilot has to crash land into a river, do you want him to start praying or actually devote full concentration to the task at hand?

Some people live by the Decalogue and are happy to celebrate Christmas. Does it affect you and if so why are you so uptight about the way others live their life? It seems you are proselytizing just as much for your cause

Not at all, I have repeatedly said I am a supporter of religious freedom, I am probably its biggest advocate here, Part of that though is not forcing your religion on others.

I have said I am happy for schools to celebrate a secular type of Christmas, they just should use it as an platform to preach a brand of religion, because that is denying others their right to be free from religion.

 

[trainspotter]

lol, Gay pride, I don't think pointing out that some of the morals of a religious charities are quite warped can be thought of as Gay pride.

I am just showing these religious groups get held up as pillars for good morals, but when you lift the curtain you find that some of their beliefs are terrible, and if you could just get rid of the religious nonsense, they would be improved.

That is one man's opinion who does not necessarily have a grip on the real world.

If someone is gay and searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” .. Pope Francis says otherwise.

The moment ANY organisation becomes of a size where idealism is the driving factor then I am sure if you lift up the curtain on ANY of them you will find that some of the beliefs are skewiff to reality.

Just ask Mark Zuckerburg about "Free Basics"

 

[Value Collector]

That happens in Australia does it ?

Some religions are way behind the times when it comes to human rights, but that doesn't mean they all are.

I may as well say all atheists are criminals because some of them are.

I was commenting on you bringing up non religious nations and saying they have bad morals, I was pointing out the theocracies at the opposite end are no different.

then I said I prefer secular countries, like Australia, where we have religious freedom.

 

[Value Collector]

If someone is gay and searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” .. Pope Francis says otherwise.

:

The pope also preaches that gays should abstain from sexual activity, and can only "Find" the lord if they turn away from their "immoral thoughts", that's a horrible thing to be telling gay youths.

Here is an atheist lady who saved her childs life by not sitting and praying, instead thinking clearly during a hurricane.

 

[trainspotter]

False hope. its no different to lucky underpants.

Praying didn't add anything and possible took away your concentration.

If you are on plane, and the pilot has to crash land into a river, do you want him to start praying or actually devote full concentration to the task at hand?

Not at all, I have repeatedly said I am a supporter of religious freedom, I am probably its biggest advocate here, Part of that though is not forcing your religion on others.

I have said I am happy for schools to celebrate a secular type of Christmas, they just should use it as an platform to preach a brand of religion, because that is denying others their right to be free from religion.

You don't have a lot going on in the psychology department do you? It may be false hope / lucky underpants to you but in their minds it is HOPE. FULL STOP.

Not much to concentrate on other then praying when you are trapped in a house under a bed in a cyclone

I bet you London to a brick that your atheist pilot would be muttering a few "Hail Mary's" under his breath as he concentrates to stop from sudden impact with the ground.

As for the schools palava then send your kids to the school that DOES NOT push religious thoughts into their head !! I sent my children to Catholic schools because the education they received were actually better standards (read educational outcomes) then the government and private (non religion) ones. The children did not seem to mind going to mass once a month and it taught them RESPECT and not necessarily religion.

 

[trainspotter]

The pope also preaches that gays should abstain from sexual activity, and can only "Find" the lord if they turn away from their "immoral thoughts".

Here is an atheist lady who saved her childs life by not sitting and praying, instead thinking clearly during a hurricane.

Once again it is one man's opinion who is more open to LGBT beliefs then previous pointy hat wearing Popes.

No mention of what she actually did ? She just said she is an atheist ... and laughed. Reading her body language how she tilted her head away from the microphone and let out a nervous *giggle* seems to lead to the conclusion she was not particularly proud to be saying it on TV either?

 

[Value Collector]

I bet you London to a brick that your atheist pilot would be muttering a few "Hail Mary's" under his breath as he concentrates to stop from sudden impact with the ground.

.

The Pilot that crashed into the Hudson river in new York is quoted as saying he was far to busy to worry about praying, that's the pilot I want in an emergency.

As for the schools palava then send your kids to the school that DOES NOT push religious thoughts into their head !!

That's what I have been saying all along, I am happy for faith schools to teach religion, just keep it out of public schools.

Once again it is one man's opinion who is more open to LGBT beliefs then previous pointy hat wearing Popes.

?

One mans opinion that's been clouded by religious nonsense that keeps him from coming to a rational moral opinion based on facts.

She just said she is an atheist ... and laughed. Reading her body language how she tilted her head away from the microphone and let out a nervous *giggle* seems to lead to the conclusion she was not particularly proud to be saying it on TV either

I think she was embarrassed by the silly question or possible shy of admitting she's an atheist due to the unfair stigma attached to the word.

 

[SirRumpole]

I think she was embarrassed by the silly question or possible shy of admitting she's an atheist due to the unfair stigma attached to the word.

The stigma is more on religious people these days thanks to the lunatics among them.

 

[Value Collector]

The stigma is more on religious people these days thanks to the lunatics among them.

In the USA, atheists are regularly trashed in the media, here is a few examples.

Its no wonder some people are shy to admit to being atheist in public. I made the mistake of watching a show called the 700 club while I was in the states recently, it's crazy how looney the American Christians are.





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Then there is stuff like this,

A Kentucky woman was arrested on accusations she beat a disabled man with his metal cane until it broke, because he said he didn’t believe in God, WDRB reports.

Laura Reid, 49, was visiting the victim in his home, and at one point she asked him if he believed in God, police told the station. The man jokingly replied he didn’t. Reid became so enraged by his answer that she allegedly picked up his metal cane and beat him over the head and body

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/woman-beats-disabled-man-with-his-own-cane-because-he-said-he-doesnt-believe-in-god-police/

 

[SirRumpole]

In the USA, atheists are regularly trashed in the media, here is a few examples.

Its no wonder some people are shy to admit to being atheist in public. I made the mistake of watching a show called the 700 club while I was in the states recently, it's crazy how looney the American Christians are.

I've always said the US is a strange place.

Yes it's frightening how extreme some of these religious people can be, but I wonder what percentage of the church going population they are, and whether the media just picks them out for the novelty value.

Although not religious myself I was bought up going to a Methodist church (which I left at the earliest opportunity with no objections from my parents). The people there were just like anyone else and the church was more like a social club than the "thought police".

I think the loonies are the exception and most Christians/Muslims/Jews are good people. You can get atheists and anarchists who are just as loony as the devout.

 

[bellenuit]

Of course there are moral atheists no doubt about that, but I keep coming back to non religious countries like China that are trying to eliminate religion, and I see a society that his little morals or scruples at least at the government level. Corruption is rife, their companies produce shoddy goods, they only care about being caught and about their own advancement.

I won't dispute that China has ongoing corruption, but to pin it on their lack of religion is a big call.

One thing that does stand out is that the least religious countries (Scandinavian for instance) also seem to have the highest ethical standards.

When it comes to the most religious countries it is hard to go beyond those in the Middle East that not only have few business scruples but commit human rights violations often on a par with countries like North Korea.

Outside the ME, two of the most corrupt countries (consistently topping the world list) are Thailand (predominantly Buddhist and regarded as extremely religious) and Indonesia (Muslim). Then we have Myanmar, another Buddhist country that has no qualms about allowing their Muslim minority to be slaughtered.

If you were to use Christianity as an argument, one thing that always struck me was that the countries that had the strongest adherence to, in this case, Catholicism, are often the most violent and corrupt within the "Christian" domain of countries. I'm referring to countries like Mexico, Colombia, Brazil, a few Latin American ones, Ireland and The Phillipines.

So the correlation of morals and scruples with religiosity is more likely to exist in the negative than the positive if the world as a whole is looked at, rather than a specific example of just one or two. It has being pointed out time and time again that countries that are becoming more secular are the ones exhibiting the higher moral and ethical standards. A good example is Ireland, which I listed above as historical having a high degree of violence. It is quickly becoming a good example of tolerance of human rights and non-violence. It was also listed recently as a country showing one of the highest declines in religiosity.

 

[SirRumpole]

If you were to use Christianity as an argument, one thing that always struck me was that the countries that had the strongest adherence to, in this case, Catholicism, are often the most violent and corrupt within the "Christian" domain of countries. I'm referring to countries like Mexico, Colombia, Brazil, a few Latin American ones, Ireland and The Phillipines.

So the correlation of morals and scruples with religiosity is more likely to exist in the negative than the positive if the world as a whole is looked at, rather than a specific example of just one or two.

I take your point, but there could be reasons for this; eg the non religious people are the ones who have no scruples and force their way into positions where they become corrupt while the average devout citizens who have no desire for power and are relative pacifists are therefore the victims.

Generalisation on this subject is fairly pointless imo, it's too complex an issue for that.

 

[McLovin]

If you were to use Christianity as an argument, one thing that always struck me was that the countries that had the strongest adherence to, in this case, Catholicism, are often the most violent and corrupt within the "Christian" domain of countries. I'm referring to countries like Mexico, Colombia, Brazil, a few Latin American ones, Ireland and The Phillipines.

A few Latin American countries? Try all of them! I've been doing business down there the last couple of years and everyone wants a kickback. It's not like corruption in Australia is such a foreign concept either. While it may have been mostly stamped out, back in the 1980s it was rife. Bob Askin was crook, so was Sir Joh, who also was a devout Christian. The Wood Royal Commission in NSW exposed the NSW Police Force as basically no better than the crims they were supposed to be stopping. It's more about cultural norms than religion.

 

[luutzu]

The pope also preaches that gays should abstain from sexual activity, and can only "Find" the lord if they turn away from their "immoral thoughts", that's a horrible thing to be telling gay youths.

Here is an atheist lady who saved her childs life by not sitting and praying, instead thinking clearly during a hurricane.

ISn't there a joke about some dude praying to God for help and a few people come round but he ignored them because he was praying; then died, saw God and complaint why he didn't help him? God said he sent a few people.

So the tornado or the flood or the Earthquake rips entire town, leaving survivors homeless and the dead, well dead. But thank god ey.

Don't think we'd thank an arsonist who burn down our house but we managed to all escaped with minor burns.