Christmas

[Value Collector]

We have been through this already, VC

It is the values you live by, VC --- our Christian values, our Christian nation

And as I pointed out then, Australia is a secular democracy with laws that assure freedom of and from Religion.

You can say this is a Christian nation all you want, but the fact is it's not.

And our modern secular laws are far superior to any biblical moral system you will find.

------------
still avoiding the question?

I asked "do you care if your beliefs are true?

 

[Tink]

You need to learn more about our history.....

Without the Judeo-Christian worldview, the West as we know it would not exist. So many of the social goods of the West which we enjoy – and too often take for granted – such as democracy, freedoms of various kinds, the rule of law, and so on, are very much the result of the biblical worldview.

Even the fruits of scientific and technological progress which have made life so much easier in recent centuries can be traced directly back to the Christian worldview.

 

[trainspotter]

And as I pointed out then, Australia is a secular democracy with laws that assure freedom of and from Religion.

You can say this is a Christian nation all you want, but the fact is it's not.

And our modern secular laws are far superior to any biblical moral system you will find.

------------
still avoiding the question?

I asked "do you care if your beliefs are true?

Sort of true ........

Christianity is the largest Australian religion according to the national census. In the 2011 Census, 61.1% of Australians were listed as Christian. Australia has no official state religion and the Australian Constitution protects freedom of religion

Ahhhhhh thanks Wikipedia !!

 

[Value Collector]

You need to learn more about our history.....

Without the Judeo-Christian worldview, the West as we know it would not exist. So many of the social goods of the West which we enjoy –.[/I]

Can you name one good thing that requires religion that could not be achieved through secular ways?

and too often take for granted – such as democracy, freedoms of various kinds, the rule of law, and so on, are very much the result of the biblical worldview.

Democracy was invented by people who believed in Zeus not Jesus.

Even the fruits of scientific and technological progress which have made life so much easier in recent centuries can be traced directly back to the Christian worldview

Nope, it can be traced back to human curiosity, Humans were making scientific advances long before there was a "Christian world view"

in fact a lot of Christians have and still do resist new knowledge that goes against their pre existing ideas.

Remember it was your church that wanted to put Galileo to death because he discovered Jupiter didn't revolve around the earth.

 

[Value Collector]

Sort of true ........

Christianity is the largest Australian religion according to the national census. In the 2011 Census, 61.1% of Australians were listed as Christian. Australia has no official state religion and the Australian Constitution protects freedom of religion

Ahhhhhh thanks Wikipedia !!

And 52% of us are female, are we a female country?

the largest percentage are white, are we a white nation?

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On a side note, what you call Christianity is just a bunch of different religions that believe a few core things, but other wise don't agree on some big issues, if you broke up the "Christian" list into all its brands, they would be tiny, and "Non religious" would be the largest group.

Also how many of the 61% actually practice their religion, most of my family would describe them selves as Anglican, But haven't been in a church apart from weddings and funerals for over 30 years, and wouldn't agree with the Anglicans on much.

 

[trainspotter]

Can you name one good thing that requires religion that could not be achieved through secular ways?

Democracy was invented by people who believed in Zeus not Jesus.

Nope, it can be traced back to human curiosity, Humans were making scientific advances long before there was a "Christian world view" in fact a lot of Christians have and still do resist new knowledge that goes against their pre existing ideas.

Remember it was your church that wanted to put Galileo to death because he discovered Jupiter didn't revolve around the earth.

Yes ... the Church is a good thing.

Mesopotamia had democracy in a tribal sense before Athens 508BC.

Remember the Crusades?

17th-century theologians based their decision on the knowledge available to them at the time, they had wronged Galileo by not recognizing the difference between a question relating to scientific investigation and one falling into the realm of doctrine of the faith.

 

[trainspotter]

And 52% of us are female, are we a female country?

the largest percentage are white, are we a white nation?

---------------

On a side note, what you call Christianity is just a bunch of different religions that believe a few core things, but other wise don't agree on some big issues, if you broke up the "Christian" list into all its brands, they would be tiny, and "Non religious" would be the largest group.

Also how many of the 61% actually practice their religion, most of my family would describe them selves as Anglican, But haven't been in a church apart from weddings and funerals for over 30 years, and wouldn't agree with the Anglicans on much.

Yes we are a female country. I don't see too many people with balls making decisions anymore.

Yes we are a white nation - Sydney riots anyone? Anyone?

You nailed it ... "a few core things" .. that is the Christian belief system. The CORE values. But you already knew that !

Does your family believe in the CORE values of their faith?

 

[Value Collector]

Yes we are a female country.
:

Really, I thought we were a nation made up of both genders

Yes we are a white nation - Sydney riots anyone? Anyone?

Really, I thought we were a nation made up of multiple skin colours

You nailed it ... "a few core things" .. that is the Christian belief system. The CORE values. But you already knew that !

Nope, they probably disagree on a lot more things than they agree on, hence the wars they have fought with each other. Some preach being gay is a sin others say its fine, some celebrate Christmas others don't,

Look at the difference between the mormans and the catholics.

Does your family believe in the CORE values of their faith? :confused

I don't think they really have much religious faith, I mean both parents were raised Anglican, but both stopped attending church when they moved out of home, but if asked they say they are Anglican, I never attended church, but was raised to write Anglican on any forms I had to fill out, I think the first census I filled out I wrote Anglican on, but I couldn't have told you anything about the Anglican faith.

I doubt most people that write Christian on the census even attend church or have read the bible.

 

[Value Collector]

Yes ... the Church is a good thing.

.

Can you name a good thing a church does that can't be done in a secular way or for secular reasons?

 

[trainspotter]

Can you name a good thing a church does that can't be done in a secular way or for secular reasons?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9_7e1rQU_U

 

[Value Collector]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9_7e1rQU_U

I asked

Can you name a good thing a church does that can't be done in a secular way or for secular reasons?

I didn't say can you link a 5 min song.

So,

Can you name a good thing a church does that can't be done in a secular way or for secular reasons

 

[SirRumpole]

Can you name a good thing a church does that can't be done in a secular way or for secular reasons

It's not a matter whether things can be done secularly, it's a matter of whether they are done that way.

Churches have provided non profit charities and services where private enterprise sees no profit and therefore does not contribute in those areas.

eg Salvation Army, St Vincent de Paul, church run schools and hospitals etc.

 

[trainspotter]

I asked (insert blah blah blah here)

I didn't say can you link a 5 min song.

So,

Can you name a good thing a church does that can't be done in a secular way or for secular reasons

Sorry did not get the memo that someone died and made you God. You must have missed the link's meaning to the 5 minute song. The bands name was "The Church" but you are far to cerebral to be monkey trapped by such triviality now aren't you.

Okay one good thing that the Church can do that secular pathways cannot is give people FAITH. There you have it ... I have said it ... FAITH. Sometimes that is what people need the most to get them through tough times. They need to believe in something and that something is FAITH.

Now I know you are not going to understand what I have written because your beliefs are black and white as in night and day and no time for this silly mumbo jumbo religious stuff here matey boy. I am talking about FAITH in the Holy Trinity Father, Son and Holy Spirit kind of way is what I am talking about. Some people NEED this in times of need or crisis because they believe in it. It makes them stronger and no amount of sitting in a circle and telling everyone your problems to a psychiatrist is going to help them. No Sir. Not one bit.

I went through Cyclone Tracy in 1974 and I remember praying like a mother trucker to let my family live.

Tell me what secular pagan deity should I have been praying to instead?

 

[trainspotter]

It's not a matter whether things can be done secularly, it's a matter of whether they are done that way.

Churches have provided non profit charities and services where private enterprise sees no profit and therefore does not contribute in those areas.

eg Salvation Army, St Vincent de Paul, church run schools and hospitals etc.

Nailed it .........

 

[luutzu]

View attachment 65471

Nailed it .........

That's not nailing anything - it's just a rusted old nail barely sticking into the beam

 

[luutzu]

It's not a matter whether things can be done secularly, it's a matter of whether they are done that way.

Churches have provided non profit charities and services where private enterprise sees no profit and therefore does not contribute in those areas.

eg Salvation Army, St Vincent de Paul, church run schools and hospitals etc.

schools are funded by gov't and fees from the students/parents. Church didn't give money for it. I actually saw breakdown and some of the school fee actually went from the school to the Church.

Salvos and Vinnies are staffed by volunteers mainly. Maybe the manager get some pay. All the goods there were donated and they sell it on to the poor. Some of the prices are a bit high too.

Don't know about hospitals but pretty sure it's the same.

Heard from a frequent churchgoer that the donation plates that goes around - the first round goes to the Vatican or its equivalent; the second the next down and the third to the state level or so.

Preaching goes down but money flows up.

 

[Tisme]

Sorry did not get the memo that someone died and made you God. You must have missed the link's meaning to the 5 minute song. The bands name was "The Church" but you are far to cerebral to be monkey trapped by such triviality now aren't you.

Okay one good thing that the Church can do that secular pathways cannot is give people FAITH. There you have it ... I have said it ... FAITH. Sometimes that is what people need the most to get them through tough times. They need to believe in something and that something is FAITH.

Now I know you are not going to understand what I have written because your beliefs are black and white as in night and day and no time for this silly mumbo jumbo religious stuff here matey boy. I am talking about FAITH in the Holy Trinity Father, Son and Holy Spirit kind of way is what I am talking about. Some people NEED this in times of need or crisis because they believe in it. It makes them stronger and no amount of sitting in a circle and telling everyone your problems to a psychiatrist is going to help them. No Sir. Not one bit.

I went through Cyclone Tracy in 1974 and I remember praying like a mother trucker to let my family live.

Tell me what secular pagan deity should I have been praying to instead?

The old tetralogy/quadrilogy was always Faith, Hope, Charity and Rat Cunning. I'd like to think Comfort is just as important a role in Christianity.

 

[Value Collector]

It's not a matter whether things can be done secularly, it's a matter of whether they are done that way.

Churches have provided non profit charities and services where private enterprise sees no profit and therefore does not contribute in those areas.

eg Salvation Army, St Vincent de Paul, church run schools and hospitals etc.

Firstly, there are plenty of secular charitable organisations doing great work out there, Charity is not owned by religion or churches, look at the great work funded by Gates and Buffet, that's a completely secular organistation, or the red cross and Oxfam or the thousands of others.

Secondly, the church based charity organisations are some of the most inefficient, and can have some nasty side effects, eg they have a goal of spreading their faith and preaching nonsense about condoms are evil and therefore helping spread aids in Africa.

Thirdly, a lot of the funding for these religious organisations comes from secular sources anyway, I know over the years I have donated a lot to World vision and the salvation army, until I learned they were not treating Gay members of society fairly.

 

[Value Collector]

Sorry did not get the memo that someone died and made you God. You must have missed the link's meaning to the 5 minute song. The bands name was "The Church" but you are far to cerebral to be monkey trapped by such triviality now aren't you.

I was asking a serious question, you chose to answer it in a half assed way.

Tell me what secular pagan deity should I have been praying to instead?

None, Praying does nothing.

Two hands working does a lot more than two hands praying as they say.

unless you have been raised to believe the nonsense in the first place, you don't need the nonsense to get through life.

 

[Ves]

Firstly, there are plenty of secular charitable organisations doing great work out there, Charity is not owned by religion or churches, look at the great work funded by Gates and Buffet, that's a completely secular organistation, or the red cross and Oxfam or the thousands of others.

Thanks for raising Bill Gates. After having a brief look out of curiosity, his views on religion / spirituality are very reasonable and down to earth.

His Wikipedia page lists a few excerpts from an interview he did:

The moral systems of religion, I think, are super important. We've raised our kids in a religious way; they've gone to the Catholic church that Melinda goes to and I participate in. I've been very lucky, and therefore I owe it to try and reduce the inequity in the world. And that's kind of a religious belief. I mean, it's at least a moral belief.

I agree with people like Richard Dawkins that mankind felt the need for creation myths. Before we really began to understand disease and the weather and things like that, we sought false explanations for them. Now science has filled in some of the realm – not all – that religion used to fill. But the mystery and the beauty of the world is overwhelmingly amazing, and there's no scientific explanation of how it came about. To say that it was generated by random numbers, that does seem, you know, sort of an uncharitable view [laughs]. I think it makes sense to believe in God, but exactly what decision in your life you make differently because of it, I don't know."

Sorry for the digression. I don't have anything to add to the thread topic at this stage.