Asylum immigrants - Green Light

[sptrawler]

They're people, like you and me.

Would you leave your home and come down to, say, Victoria to live? It's a smooth ride, very little or no chance of death, and you could keep all your property with you but I bet you wouldn't do it. Just move to another state and start all over...

I'm pretty sure life must be quite terrible for anyone to decide to leave everything behind and flee... and if it's for no real good reason than hoping for a better life, are we going to seriously belittle that? Wouldn't we do the same?

I'm not saying open our borders, save all the poor... but, again, this is matter of life and death... maybe worth a bit more thought than a quick wave of get stuff you illegal penniless blood sucking infiltrators.

What about the ones who don't want to integrate, those who don't want to show tolerance of our way of life and our customs, those who have fled a violent past just to continue it here?

Those who have found living off their wits in their homelands, gives them an advantage in a welfare state?
Yet the welfare state, can only be supported, by those willing to pull their weight.

Ireland has found, the influx and desertion, of opportunistic nomads can be difficult.

 

[noco]

How do you know they're not persecuted and are genuine refugees who happen to have some money or managed to sell everything to get that far?

Those refugees without money to afford a boat ride, and there are plenty of them, get stuck back and try to not get persecuted.

Are people not refugee if they have $10 000?

So why did they all throw their passports over board before being rescued by the Rudd/Gillard water taxi?

 

[noco]

You can't be this stupid. Good luck getting a visa so you can come on a plane if you are from Iraq.

They had no trouble getting into Indonesia on Iraqi passports.

That was not my post about flying to Australia..that was someone other ASF poster.

I think you are the stupid one in this case.

 

[luutzu]

What about the ones who don't want to integrate, those who don't want to show tolerance of our way of life and our customs, those who have fled a violent past just to continue it here?

Those who have found living off their wits in their homelands, gives them an advantage in a welfare state?
Yet the welfare state, can only be supported, by those willing to pull their weight.

Ireland has found, the influx and desertion, of opportunistic nomads can be difficult.

We have prisons, and capitalists, for those.

And I'm only half kidding.

There will always be criminal elements, always some crazies and just plain sociopaths... and they aren't necessarily Muslims or refugees either.

Was watching this interview with Charlie Munger (that one from Berkshire Hathaway) with the dean of Caltech. The dean was saying that he observed how time and time again, Americans have this wave of discrimination against new wave of arrivals - the Anglo hates the Dutch, they both hate the Irish, then they hate the Italians, then the Jews, the Arabs, the Asians....

But he found that each new wave of immigrant always contribute and lift America higher. "New Blood" he call it.
The American Indians may not agree with him but then they weren't much for capitalism or prisons.

Then there's Michael Lewis - from Liar's Poker, MoneyBall - in one of his interviews for Flash Boys (High Frequency Trading stuff)... he said how the guys he interviewed, the one putting their neck out and blew the whistle on how wrong these stuff was... doing the right thing when they could easily make loads of money... they're mostly immigrants or from immigrant background. And they did the right and courageous thing because they have this image of an ideal America.

I don't see why the same can't be said for immigrants and refugees to Australia.

No one is suggesting that third, fourth, nth generation aussies don't have the drive or the idealism... But sometime, and I am sometime guilty of this, when we have it too good for too long we tend to lose perspective and relax and take things for granted.

I don't think most who escaped and arrive here in Australia would want to break or spoil this paradise. Most would want to contribute and make it better... and I am definitely sure most if not all would not want to turn this place into what they've left. In fact, it's more logical that they'd work hard to make sure it would never ever decline or fall towards what they've escaped.

Religious beliefs, cultural identity... these tend to weaken and adapted within a generation or two. Adaptation, that's just a scientific fact, a necessity for survival.

 

[sptrawler]

We have prisons, and capitalists, for those.

And I'm only half kidding.

There will always be criminal elements, always some crazies and just plain sociopaths... and they aren't necessarily Muslims or refugees either.

Was watching this interview with Charlie Munger (that one from Berkshire Hathaway) with the dean of Caltech. The dean was saying that he observed how time and time again, Americans have this wave of discrimination against new wave of arrivals - the Anglo hates the Dutch, they both hate the Irish, then they hate the Italians, then the Jews, the Arabs, the Asians....

But he found that each new wave of immigrant always contribute and lift America higher. "New Blood" he call it.
The American Indians may not agree with him but then they weren't much for capitalism or prisons.

Then there's Michael Lewis - from Liar's Poker, MoneyBall - in one of his interviews for Flash Boys (High Frequency Trading stuff)... he said how the guys he interviewed, the one putting their neck out and blew the whistle on how wrong these stuff was... doing the right thing when they could easily make loads of money... they're mostly immigrants or from immigrant background. And they did the right and courageous thing because they have this image of an ideal America.

I don't see why the same can't be said for immigrants and refugees to Australia.

No one is suggesting that third, fourth, nth generation aussies don't have the drive or the idealism... But sometime, and I am sometime guilty of this, when we have it too good for too long we tend to lose perspective and relax and take things for granted.

I don't think most who escaped and arrive here in Australia would want to break or spoil this paradise. Most would want to contribute and make it better... and I am definitely sure most if not all would not want to turn this place into what they've left. In fact, it's more logical that they'd work hard to make sure it would never ever decline or fall towards what they've escaped.

Religious beliefs, cultural identity... these tend to weaken and adapted within a generation or two. Adaptation, that's just a scientific fact, a necessity for survival.

I don't disagree with that sentiment, however in the past most immigrants came here for a better life, with no welfare system available.
The wogs, spags, daygo's, and pommie bastards(like me) came here with no welfare, yet forged a future.

I lived in the NW of W.A in the 1960's no air con, then dad moved to the Kalgoorlie goldfields, which were no better.

Austraians are being asked to support people, coming through illegal channels to avail themselves of a welfare system we have struggled to build up and are struggling to maintain.

Not only that, but we have to modify our christian beliefs, to respect their beliefs. As if that would be reciprocated in their country.

That is why our society is breaking down, we no longer have an identity, we aren't allowed to have one.
If we show a national identity and rally to it, legislation will be enacted to prevent it.

Yet we are expected to go to war to protect it? Weird.

Is there any wonder Palmer and co get elected, it is hard to find a difference, with any of them in politics.

 

[bunyip]

I don't think most who escaped and arrive here in Australia would want to break or spoil this paradise. Most would want to contribute and make it better... and I am definitely sure most if not all would not want to turn this place into what they've left. In fact, it's more logical that they'd work hard to make sure it would never ever decline or fall towards what they've escaped.

That just shows how far out of touch with reality you really are.
Apparently you’re blind to what’s happened in every single country that opened it’s doors to Muslims en masse in the belief that they’d fit in and become a real asset to their adopted country.
Apparently you’re blind to the problems they’re starting to cause here in Australia.
The extremist religion called Islam has proven to be incompatible with the general populace in every country which it’s infiltrated, yet you seem to think they’ll fit in here no worries at all.
You’re a dreamer with a distorted view of reality. And you clearly have no idea of economics or running a business, otherwise you’d see the economic impossibility of continuing to bring in large numbers of immigrants who will be living on welfare from day one.
Given the attitudes you’ve demonstrated on this forum, it comes as no surprise that you do little towards helping people who have contributed to this country for most or all of their lives, yet you’re keen for us to spend billions to bring in people whose attitudes, religion and values are incompatible with our own, and who invariably change their adopted country so that it ends up like the country they came from.

 

[luutzu]

That just shows how far out of touch with reality you really are.
Apparently you’re blind to what’s happened in every single country that opened it’s doors to Muslims en masse in the belief that they’d fit in and become a real asset to their adopted country.
Apparently you’re blind to the problems they’re starting to cause here in Australia.
The extremist religion called Islam has proven to be incompatible with the general populace in every country which it’s infiltrated, yet you seem to think they’ll fit in here no worries at all.
You’re a dreamer with a distorted view of reality. And you clearly have no idea of economics or running a business, otherwise you’d see the economic impossibility of continuing to bring in large numbers of immigrants who will be living on welfare from day one.
Given the attitudes you’ve demonstrated on this forum, it comes as no surprise that you do little towards helping people who have contributed to this country for most or all of their lives, yet you’re keen for us to spend billions to bring in people whose attitudes, religion and values are incompatible with our own, and who invariably change their adopted country so that it ends up like the country they came from.

Mate, if those who have contributed to this country all or most of their lives and they needs help, help from people like me and I don't give it... it's not just me who failed them, the gov't seems to have a hand in it long before I do.

Given my attitude, do you think I'd vote for a gov't that will cut benefits to the poor or the needy or the seniors? Every vote count, and mine will not go to favour the haves at the expense of the have not - that might do some good right?

What if the work I do may directly, and if not directly, my taxes indirectly help, Australians also?


Before you wrap yourself in the Australian flag and call what you stand for "Australian" and you're defending Australian values... I know a few "white", first fleet descendant aussies who will find what you said insulting to them.

The values you talk about... bigoted, ill-informed and just plain racist rubbish any sane person just don't know where to start pointing out the flaws and lunacy... that's not the Australian values I know.


You really want to help the country? Help the people? Start by looking at where the problems are, not blame people who haven't yet arrived; or blamed on those arrived and somehow still haven't ruin it.

For example, maybe complaint why it is a good policy to force gov't agencies to cut their spending by 1.2 or so percent per year and call it the efficiency dividend - for some 30 years!

You know how many jobs were cut with that blanketed requirement? How many investments in projects for real efficiency must be abandon due to no new spending/investment from gov't? How many services to the public are cut from that?

Then ask why is it that only some 11 multinationals corporations now have ATO auditors checking their books. What happen to the other hundreds or thousands... they all pay their fair share of taxes? We don't have enough tax collector to collect.. .that's a smart way to efficiency.


So we seem to be all OK with gov't services being cut year after year, yet not having enough staff to check correct tax payment from large corporations... and you're upset at refugees and Muslim for ruining the country?

----

You got to think a bit harder regarding economics and investments.
Refugees just come over and live off of us, forever?

Muslims are all terrorists, ruined all countries they live in... countries like? Australia - ruined; America - ruined; Iraq- ruined; Europe - all ruined because of Arabs and Muslims... No other factors might explain the ruins beside Islam and Muslims?

Anyway, not interested in a debate with you.

 

[Tisme]

I remember my Italian mates feared being called into national service by the Italian Govt because of their dual citizenship. I was just pondering what the response would be if the Iraq, Iranian, etc govts decided to conscript our well fed Arabs into the war on ISIS/Israelies/etc?

Bunyip I think you reflect the attitude of many. Our country has had to contend with many ethnics who conflict their allegiances and fortunately many poms went back home after the battle of their lives with the locals, heat and flies....those that stayed and mixed it up with the other ethnic migrants who had nothing to go back to made this place an oasis in a desert of third world poverty that surrounds it.

I lament the days of migration that required a skillset for a ticket to ride, an asset rather than a liability and families who were prepared to pitch in and create personal wealth by toil.

 

[bunyip]

Mate, if those who have contributed to this country all or most of their lives and they needs help, help from people like me and I don't give it... it's not just me who failed them, the gov't seems to have a hand in it long before I do.

Given my attitude, do you think I'd vote for a gov't that will cut benefits to the poor or the needy or the seniors? Every vote count, and mine will not go to favour the haves at the expense of the have not - that might do some good right?

What if the work I do may directly, and if not directly, my taxes indirectly help, Australians also?


Before you wrap yourself in the Australian flag and call what you stand for "Australian" and you're defending Australian values... I know a few "white", first fleet descendant aussies who will find what you said insulting to them.

The values you talk about... bigoted, ill-informed and just plain racist rubbish any sane person just don't know where to start pointing out the flaws and lunacy... that's not the Australian values I know.


You really want to help the country? Help the people? Start by looking at where the problems are, not blame people who haven't yet arrived; or blamed on those arrived and somehow still haven't ruin it.

For example, maybe complaint why it is a good policy to force gov't agencies to cut their spending by 1.2 or so percent per year and call it the efficiency dividend - for some 30 years!

You know how many jobs were cut with that blanketed requirement? How many investments in projects for real efficiency must be abandon due to no new spending/investment from gov't? How many services to the public are cut from that?

Then ask why is it that only some 11 multinationals corporations now have ATO auditors checking their books. What happen to the other hundreds or thousands... they all pay their fair share of taxes? We don't have enough tax collector to collect.. .that's a smart way to efficiency.


So we seem to be all OK with gov't services being cut year after year, yet not having enough staff to check correct tax payment from large corporations... and you're upset at refugees and Muslim for ruining the country?

----

You got to think a bit harder regarding economics and investments.
Refugees just come over and live off of us, forever?

Muslims are all terrorists, ruined all countries they live in... countries like? Australia - ruined; America - ruined; Iraq- ruined; Europe - all ruined because of Arabs and Muslims... No other factors might explain the ruins beside Islam and Muslims?

Anyway, not interested in a debate with you.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that you and your family escaped from a communist dictatorship in Vietnam, and were extremely fortunate to find a big beautiful place called Australia that was willing to take you in.
You’ve lived here and enjoyed the freedom and wonderful lifestyle of this paradise, but now you want to impose a dictatorship on us in the form of Islam.
No doubt you’ll deny that’s what you want to do, but you lack the common sense to realize that, bit by bit, that’s what happens when a country starts bringing in large numbers of Islamic refugees. The changes are small at first, but as their numbers and their influence grow, they force more and more changes on their adopted country, with a resulting erosion in the freedoms and lifestyle enjoyed by its citizens. They breed at many times the reproduction rate of their adopted country, and as their numbers grow significantly they start demanding Sharia law, and in fact imposing it by force in some suburbs even though it hasn’t become legislation. This is actually happening right now in some countries.

What I’m telling you is not simply my opinion – it’s verifiable fact. Right now in Europe there’s a growing movement against the Islamisation of Europe because people are heartily sick of the negative impact of Islam on their lives.
And I haven’t even mentioned the terrorist issue which in itself is a huge risk to the security of our country.

You know what happened in Vietnam when a dictatorship rode roughshod over the population. Same story in Germany, Russia, Uganda, Cambodia and dozens of other countries throughout history. If you love and respect Australia as I do, then don’t let the same thing happen here by laying out the welcome mat to Islam. Surely you owe Australia better than that.

 

[luutzu]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that you and your family escaped from a communist dictatorship in Vietnam, and were extremely fortunate to find a big beautiful place called Australia that was willing to take you in.
You’ve lived here and enjoyed the freedom and wonderful lifestyle of this paradise, but now you want to impose a dictatorship on us in the form of Islam.
No doubt you’ll deny that’s what you want to do, but you lack the common sense to realize that, bit by bit, that’s what happens when a country starts bringing in large numbers of Islamic refugees. The changes are small at first, but as their numbers and their influence grow, they force more and more changes on their adopted country, with a resulting erosion in the freedoms and lifestyle enjoyed by its citizens. They breed at many times the reproduction rate of their adopted country, and as their numbers grow significantly they start demanding Sharia law, and in fact imposing it by force in some suburbs even though it hasn’t become legislation. This is actually happening right now in some countries.

What I’m telling you is not simply my opinion – it’s verifiable fact. Right now in Europe there’s a growing movement against the Islamisation of Europe because people are heartily sick of the negative impact of Islam on their lives.
And I haven’t even mentioned the terrorist issue which in itself is a huge risk to the security of our country.

You know what happened in Vietnam when a dictatorship rode roughshod over the population. Same story in Germany, Russia, Uganda, Cambodia and dozens of other countries throughout history. If you love and respect Australia as I do, then don’t let the same thing happen here by laying out the welcome mat to Islam. Surely you owe Australia better than that.

It's because I owe Australia more than that, probably because I know Australia better than that, that I think the way I do.

Your kind of thinking is very dangerous, and will harm this country. And if you have your way, will turn it into what you hope it won't be.

Would it be better if, instead of Islamic Sharia law, we have Christian laws? Better if we teach Christian values instead of Islamic or Buddhist? OK to discriminate against an entire people as long as they're Muslim? Then maybe the wogs or the Jews? Asians are all nice and meek so they're alright yea?

The moment you allow your law to discriminate against any one group of people, that's the moment the country you love is deteriorating. Let that go further and soon the country won't be worth a bucket of spit, as they say.

You think the VNese Communist Party stop being mean once they've screwed all the former South VNese soldiers and their families? Or stop once they've taken, OK "nationalise", all the properties of the rich? Once they can "legally" do things like that, what will make them stop taking from other groups? Precedents are set, habits formed.

---

I've been living, literally, a few blocks from one of the biggest Mosque in Australia. Near that Mosque is one of the bigger Churches. I have not seen any problems or graffitis on the Church or the Catholic school nearby; There's also a Korean Church with not much of a fence around it, no problems there either - and we're in enemy territory here right?

So let Australia be a paradise for Muslims, as well as Christians, Jews, Buddhists and even Scientologists. Let them pray to whatever whomever they want.. that's the kind of law and attitudes that made Australia great - both economically as well as spiritually.

You can't ask people to abandon their God. But you can ask them to respect other people's gods. And we have done that fairly successfully in Australia.


----

Economic contribution next time

 

[luutzu]

Some studies:

Assessing the economic contribution of refugees in Australia
by Richard Parsons

http://www.mdainc.org.au/sites/default/files/Assessing-the-economic-contribution-of-refugees-in-Australia-Final.pdf

"...no study finds that refugees impose a net cost to Australia in the long term. Research indicates that refugees start to make a net contribution somewhere between five and 20 years after arrival in Australia, reflecting the different assumptions and methodologies being applied. Various studies also find that refugees have a higher incidence of business ownership than other migrant groups, and that they play a critical economic role in unskilled and semi-skilled work in regional areas."

"Reliance on purely economic arguments for refugee settlement may provide a convincing case
because of their apparent rationality and objectivity, but viewing refugees through an exclusively
economic lens risks promoting the idea that refugees themselves may be dispensed with when no
longer ‘needed’. As Hugo (2011) reminds us, the prime motivation for Australia accepting refugees has
always been a humanitarian one, deriving from signing the 1951 United Nations Convention for the
Status of Refugees and the 1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees. The appropriate place for
economic considerations is at best alongside ethical, humanitarian principles, not as a final
determinant of refugee policy."

--------
ECONOMIC, CIVIC AND SOCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS OF REFUGEES AND HUMANITARIAN ENTRANTS
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/r/rpt/2010-Contributions.pdf

"The 740,000 refugees and humanitarian migrants settled by Australia since Federation have had a
profound impact in enhancing the nation’s social, cultural and economic life."

"Refugees make substantial contributions to their new country – expanding consumer markets for local goods, opening new markets, bringing in new skills, creating employment and filling empty employment niches. There
may be short-term costs as refugees are resettled and adjust to their new surroundings but once successful integration has occurred refugees are able to quickly make permanent cultural, social and economic contributions and infuse vitality, humanitarian values and multiculturalism into the communities into which they are resettled.

Australia’s refugees and humanitarian entrants have found success in every field of endeavour,including the arts, sports, media, science, research, business and civic and community life. Refugees’ stories are extremely diverse; however, there are some commonly mentioned “ingredients for success” including having had community support; feeling motivated to “give back” to society; and having access to training, English classes, mentoring and cultural, sporting and volunteering activities."


"Refugees are often entrepreneurial as they face the need to set up and establish themselves in a new environment. One illustration of this was evident in the 2000 Business Review Weekly’s annual “Rich 200” list
which showed that five of Australia’s eight billionaires were people whose families had originally
come to the country as refugees. The efforts of refugee diasporas not only benefit Australia but
often also their homelands. Outward remittances by migrants and refugees from Australia totalled
over US$2.815 billion in 2006. There is increasing evidence that remittances are crucial to the
survival of communities in many developing countries, including many which have suffered conflict
and produced refugees. These remittances represent a significant development resource to these
countries.

The positive impact of refugees has also been especially felt in regional and rural Australia. In
recent times rural areas have experienced large scale departures in population resulting in skills
losses, lack of local entrepreneurship, business closures and the loss of social capital and
services. Successful regional and rural refugee resettlement programs have helped plug some
population gaps, supply much-needed labour and stimulate economic growth and services
delivery. More generally, the young age profile of humanitarian entrants makes a very positive
contribution to a labour market in which new retirees now exceed new labour force entrants."

 

[noco]

As John Howard said we ( Australia ) will decided who comes to Australia from where and when.

Australia has an immigration program based population expansion and finance....We have enough free loaders at the present.

No migrant from within or out side Australia have the right to dictate terms on what we should do or not do.

Furthermore, if migrants cannot assimilate into our way of life without trying to force some other ideology on us, I say go back to where you came from and live under your country's rules if that is what you want.

Australia has tried to be hospitable to recent illegal immigrants and they have abused our system.

The Islamic movement is hell bent on dividing this country as it is doing in Europe and the UK.

 

[Tisme]

So let Australia be a paradise for Muslims, as well as Christians, Jews, Buddhists and even Scientologists. Let them pray to whatever whomever they want.. that's the kind of law and attitudes that made Australia great - both economically as well as spiritually.

.

I think it's the tendency for some religions to entwine their own laws with the spiritual stuff that many are concerned about. It is not confined to Muslims and if you were around in the fifties/sixties and prior you would know Catholics had their horns clipped by the great white wave of Australia.... there is still a generation out there that distrust the notion a Pope can tell believers what to do here.

The abhorrence of finding out girls are being smuggled out of the country by their parents (against the law) and practically being sold into servitude is a typical example of culture trumping the rules. Muslims aren't the only ones who ignore the law and Australian protocol, there are plenty of Asians who do that too and "no speak English" when caught. It's not fair on us pioneer stock that we have no excuse to flout the rules.

We are a secular society and many of us want it kept that way.

 

[luutzu]

I think it's the tendency for some religions to entwine their own laws with the spiritual stuff that many are concerned about. It is not confined to Muslims and if you were around in the fifties/sixties and prior you would know Catholics had their horns clipped by the great white wave of Australia.... there is still a generation out there that distrust the notion a Pope can tell believers what to do here.

The abhorrence of finding out girls are being smuggled out of the country by their parents (against the law) and practically being sold into servitude is a typical example of culture trumping the rules. Muslims aren't the only ones who ignore the law and Australian protocol, there are plenty of Asians who do that too and "no speak English" when caught. It's not fair on us pioneer stock that we have no excuse to flout the rules.

We are a secular society and many of us want it kept that way.

There's always some religious nuts, and if they didn't do the crazies in the name of their religion, they'd just do it anyway because... they're crazy.

I'm sure we all have no problem seeing some flaws in any religion's dogma and practices - some strange and weird things we'd rather not do. But as long as those don't break our laws or infringe on other citizens' rights, go nuts.

It's understandable the frustration White/Christian Australians may feel about Muslims or other races coming in and apparently either trample on their values or load up on the good life that is welfare. If that's the case, we'd all be rightly upset and angry. But I don't think that is or has been the case at all.

From those two studies above, the opposite might very well be the case. And if my own experience and those I know is any guide, it definitely is not the case. There's something about having been a refugee that changes a person... for the better I think. It's like being poor and struggling early in life - it could turn some into something quite nasty but by far I think it makes the person stronger, more resilient and more sympathetic to others.



Yea I heard the Catholics have problems back then too. JFK had problems because the Americans thought if elected he'd take orders from the Pope... that's quite laughable to most people now. Maybe it'd be laughable to more Australians about Muslim-Australians. Maybe only when the oils run out and we have new places to be and new enemies to demonize - too much?

 

[SirRumpole]

We are a secular society and many of us want it kept that way.

I totally agree, which makes policies like enforcing religious chaplains in schools illogical.

 

[FxTrader]

There's always some religious nuts, and if they didn't do the crazies in the name of their religion, they'd just do it anyway because... they're crazy.

Not just some, there are millions of them (many who advocate or support violence without committing it themselves) and they are responding to the dictates and dogma of their religion. Religious extremists, and the vicious violence committed by many of them, are conveniently dismissed by apologists for religion as crazy, mentally disturbed or having motives other than religion for their actions. Religious extremists must be liars about their motives and/or crazy because religious superstition is basically good and useful and Islamic extremists are no different than other religious crazies. This is simply a denial of reality to suit a misguided belief in the presumed universal virtues and usefulness of religion.

I'm sure we all have no problem seeing some flaws in any religion's dogma and practices - some strange and weird things we'd rather not do. But as long as those don't break our laws or infringe on other citizens' rights, go nuts.

Such a naive view of that the Islamic religion in particular is somehow benign as long as laws are not infringed by its adherents totally misunderstands and downplays the goals of Islam. Islam does not value a pluralist secular society. Rather, Islam commands the imposition of Islamic law in a theocratic framework. Changing laws, society and your rights are very much on Muslim's agenda and you are a naive fool if you don't understand this.

It's understandable the frustration White/Christian Australians may feel about Muslims or other races coming in and apparently either trample on their values or load up on the good life that is welfare. If that's the case, we'd all be rightly upset and angry. But I don't think that is or has been the case at all.

Islam is not a race and once again you misunderstand it's goals and dictates. Belittling those who have legitimate concerns about Muslim migration and implying they are are exhibiting racist attitudes in such a patronizing fashion is offensive and obscene tripe.

 

[luutzu]

Not just some, there are millions of them (many who advocate or support violence without committing it themselves) and they are responding to the dictates and dogma of their religion. Religious extremists, and the vicious violence committed by many of them, are conveniently dismissed by apologists for religion as crazy, mentally disturbed or having motives other than religion for their actions. Religious extremists must be liars about their motives and/or crazy because religious superstition is basically good and useful and Islamic extremists are no different than other religious crazies. This is simply a denial of reality to suit a misguided belief in the presumed universal virtues and usefulness of religion.


Such a naive view of that the Islamic religion in particular is somehow benign as long as laws are not infringed by its adherents totally misunderstands and downplays the goals of Islam. Islam does not value a pluralist secular society. Rather, Islam commands the imposition of Islamic law in a theocratic framework. Changing laws, society and your rights are very much on Muslim's agenda and you are a naive fool if you don't understand this.


Islam is not a race and once again you misunderstand it's goals and dictates. Belittling those who have legitimate concerns about Muslim migration and implying they are are exhibiting racist attitudes in such a patronizing fashion is offensive and obscene tripe.

You should read a bit more history. Then onto politics.

Before you make judgement about Muslim or Islam, maybe go talk to a couple of Muslims... maybe read the Koran.

This is insane. So what are your concerns about Islam and Muslims?


They want to rule the world?

Who's the dominant powers in the world for the last 500 years?

Who's the only superpower since the end of the Evil Empire?

If you list all empires throughout history, then next to their name put their religion... I'll bet you you'll see a bunch of Christian Kingdoms and empires on that list.

Are you saying Christian Emperors are kinder, conquer and colonise weaker states through love? The Chinese or the Mongolian or the Romans... those conquered through war with swords and death?

Or are we saying that Christian society and values had improved and are more kinder and gentler now? But Islam had not?

What else is more common on that list? The fact that they're empires? That people just wage war of conquest and grab whatever that unites their soldiers and their people the most? Be that the Christian God, the same Christian God Islam worship but call Allah... or Jupiter or Zeus or the Sun god or whatever...



So are we done with one religion are all rosy, preaches love and kindness and democracy and people power and science and enlightenment.... while the other (Islam), preaches hate and subjugate its followers, telling them to subjugate all others la di da.



Don't mistake your worries and fears for reality. Just because you have reasons to be afraid and hateful of something doesn't mean those reasons are right and rational.


Don't you find it funny that on the one hand you go on about how great Australia is, how benign and fair minded Christianity is, how this country is so open and so wonderful and the Christian value is mostly, if not all, that made it possible... then in the same breath practically say all Muslims are horrible, some less than others, but less because they follow less of Islam and we should get rid of them before it's too late.


Let say we make it legal to discriminate against Muslims, we ban Islam. Make their followers wear crescent moon on their clothing... are we going to be a better society by doing that?

Then after the Muslim and Islam is gone... who's next? How about the homosexuals (no, Christianity does not permit homosexuality).... Then maybe old and sick people, what use are they anyway right. Then babies... those little cute and cuddly monkeys will burden our system for decades to come. How about rich people? Let's take all their rights and their properties.. .and why not, we have taken more from others than just money these rich don't need when we need it to do all these cleaning.


It's a basic fact that the system of law that treats everyone equally will protect everyone equally. Not being Muslims, I'm sure you'll be fine with laws and hatred against Muslims. Would you still be fine when that system turn against you?

The moral bankruptcy that could discriminate, could blame and mistreat one group can and will discriminate another group when it serves them. Read history, you won't need to go that far back to see.

Heck, look at the people around you... You ever have a good and honest, a kind and dependable friend who is nasty to others?


Maybe before you paint all Muslims with terrorism, take a walk in their shoes for a day or two. I'm pretty sure Jesus taught his follower something like that.

 

[dutchie]

Coming to a town near you.........................



Charlie Hebdo attack: Multiple fatalities in French newspaper shooting

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe...wspaper-shooting/story-fnh81p7g-1227177729494

Police say 12 dead, 11 injured in attack at Paris newspaper office
Gunmen on the loose after shooting at staff and police
Unconfirmed reports the gunmen were members of al-Qaeda in Yemen
President Hollande said attack is “terrorist act”
Charlie Hebdo was firebombed in 2011 over cartoon of Prophet Mohammed



What will the West do - nothing (just talk) , because they are weak.

What should they do - stop all Muslim immigration.

 

[SirRumpole]

Then after the Muslim and Islam is gone... who's next? How about the homosexuals (no, Christianity does not permit homosexuality).... Then maybe old and sick people, what use are they anyway right. Then babies... those little cute and cuddly monkeys will burden our system for decades to come. How about rich people? Let's take all their rights and their properties.. .and why not, we have taken more from others than just money these rich don't need when we need it to do all these cleaning.

So the allegation is that we are waging a religious war against Islam, ie that "we" are all "Christians" who hate an opposing faith ?

That's incorrect. We are a secular society who dislike people who promote their faith as though it should be a part of the law of the land, and those who come to sponge on our social welfare as though it's their right to receive our magnaminity without contributing anything in return. The invocation of a fictional crusade against old people or homosexuals as an ongoing example of intolerance is disingenuous.

If people are prepared to contribute to the nation, accept that we live in a secular society and that our laws outrank their religious ones, then they will be welcome, as you yourself have been and a lot of your countrymen as well.

I recognise and respect your feelings regarding the treatment of refugees and minority groups. Certainly, not every refugee is the same and some just want a decent life and are prepared to work for it.

If there was a good way of identifying those people from the rest who want a life of promotion of their religious cause funded by our welfare (as the recent Martin Place siege has shown), then I'm sure we would all support that principle. That is why we have a authorised annual refugee intake where people are vetted for genuine refugee status before they come here. This is the only sane and sensible way to run a refugee intake system that puts the merchants of death; ie people smugglers out of business.

 

[Julia]

You should read a bit more history.

You should read other people's posts properly before responding.

Don't you find it funny that on the one hand you go on about how great Australia is, how benign and fair minded Christianity is, how this country is so open and so wonderful and the Christian value is mostly, if not all, that made it possible... then in the same breath practically say all Muslims are horrible, some less than others, but less because they follow less of Islam and we should get rid of them before it's too late.

That is a gross misrepresentation of what FX said. You do this all the time - distort what others have said couched in emotive nonsense.

If there was a good way of identifying those people from the rest who want a life of promotion of their religious cause funded by our welfare (as the recent Martin Place siege has shown), then I'm sure we would all support that principle. That is why we have a authorised annual refugee intake where people are vetted for genuine refugee status before they come here. This is the only sane and sensible way to run a refugee intake system that puts the merchants of death; ie people smugglers out of business.

Yes, indeed, Rumpole. Luutzu conveniently ignores the reality that when those who could afford to pay people smugglers were flooding into Australia, those who had properly applied to come here continued to wait longer in squalid refugee camps. They are the people we want as new Australians.