Alcohol fueled violence

[MrBurns]

Alcohol itself isn't really the problem, it is more a cultural problem I think. For example in places like Spain or France you can buy 1 litre of red wine for 1 Euro. Yet in those places I don't see the kind of mindless violence like we see here. Same goes for some Asian countries, plenty of grog around for much cheaper prices but very few violent incidences. So what is it about Aussies getting blind then giving someone a hiding or getting into sensless brawls? What about girls glassing other girls in the face? again
p!ssed and agressive behaviour. I've seen chairs get thrown through pub windows and knives get pulled at the cab rank in Manly, and Manly is suppose to be a nice seaside tourist spot.

Anyone who thinks this is a minor thing is deluding themselves, but I don't think the supply of or the price of grog has anything to do with it. Something is culturally wrong here in Australia. The roughest place I ever lived was in the Latrobe Valley in Victoria. I use to go to work on Monday and hear all my work mates bragging about how they gave somebody a good biffing over the weakend, unbelievabe but true, wasn't my kind of place and I was glad to get out of there.

You're right, but I don't know how this can be reversed, it will take a generation I guess, a good start would be to give these people some dignity, some work, I dunno.

In the short term we can only hope to control it with a big stick and the police need to be tougher and have less tolerance as should the courts.

 

[MrBurns]

The blasted media are making things up again

Policeman kicked unconscious during party arrest
Posted March 25, 2012 10:00:14

A police officer has been kicked unconscious during a busy night in which Western Australian Police worked to tame about 10 out-of-control parties in Perth.

In the worst incident, more than 30 police vehicles were sent to a party on Coniston Way in Balga where about 120 young people were fighting and throwing bottles.

One officer was trying to arrest a man when a woman approached him from behind and kicked him unconcious.

The policeman was taken to Sir Charles Gardiner Hospital and the woman was arrested and taken to Mirrabooka Police Station for questioning.

Around the same time, a man was taken to Armadale Hospital with a suspected fractured skull after he was punched at a party in Seville Grove.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-25/police-officer-kicked-uncounscious-in-perth/3911040

 

[Sdajii]

It will take more than a generation to get a peaceful, respectful, responsible culture in Australia. The situation is getting worse rather than better. Some of the issue is a soft legal stance on violence, a stupid way of dealing with drugs, ridiculous schooling, bad parenting and multiculturalism (I'm not racist, but like it or not, putting different races and religions together causes conflict. Call me racist if you like, but it would be like telling me I'm sexist for stating the fact that wives are sometimes beaten by husbands or that some women are gold diggers).

 

[MrBurns]

It will take more than a generation to get a peaceful, respectful, responsible culture in Australia. The situation is getting worse rather than better. Some of the issue is a soft legal stance on violence, a stupid way of dealing with drugs, ridiculous schooling, bad parenting and multiculturalism (I'm not racist, but like it or not, putting different races and religions together causes conflict. Call me racist if you like, but it would be like telling me I'm sexist for stating the fact that wives are sometimes beaten by husbands or that some women are gold diggers).

I'm afraid you're right - the French take the lead again.......

http://www.english.rfi.fr/node/75053

but at the risk of sounding more racist I think it seems to work OK with most here but with some nationalities not at all and I cant mention who but you can guess.

 

[Smurf1976]

My son and his girlfriend late at night chatting with friends minding their own business on a party street in the city of Adelaide... when one of the dozen gang members who happened to be walking past gave my sons girlfriend a king hit as he went past.

The problem there is gangs and then the police response to the situation. There is nothing to say that alcohol was even involved at all in this incident. It could have been of course, but given that we're talking about a gang I'd say it was more likely either other drugs or simply a random act.

I've had rather a lot of involvement in this issue one way and another over the past few years and my ultimate conclusion is that "smart" lawyers, slack judges and the so-called "justice" system are the real problems.

We've had late trading nightclubs etc for decades and yet problems are relatively more recent. Partly they do probably relate to the failed "economic rationalism" which did away with many keepers of community standards (and many jobs) for no real gain in terms of cost to consumers. But a bigger part of it comes down to there simply being no consequence for breaking the law.

If I park my car too long in a legal parking space then I'll be fined for doing so. Fair enough, there's a sign and I've broken the law. Likewise I could be fined if I decided to mow the lawn at 9am on a Sunday or don't properly secure the load in the trailer on the way to the tip. Those are the sorts of crimes that the average person could foreseeably be fined for, mostly due to making simple mistakes.

But someone can smash someone's face in and they'll get a warning and suspended sentence at most. That's the problem. There are bigger penalties for comparatively trivial offences such as those I've listed. There's no actual deterrent to those who like to throw punches, and that is the crux of the problem. Get rid of overly lenient judges, "smart" lawyers and the "slap on the wrist" approach and that will fix the problem.

 

[MrBurns]

But someone can smash someone's face in and they'll get a warning and suspended sentence at most. That's the problem. There are bigger penalties for comparatively trivial offences such as those I've listed. There's no actual deterrent to those who like to throw punches, and that is the crux of the problem. Get rid of overly lenient judges, "smart" lawyers and the "slap on the wrist" approach and that will fix the problem.

Been saying that for years but nothing ever happens, the only time I see a headline where someone is taking a stance it's from France or elsewhere OS, we are the country of the big bludge.

 

[rumpole]

It will take more than a generation to get a peaceful, respectful, responsible culture in Australia. The situation is getting worse rather than better. Some of the issue is a soft legal stance on violence, a stupid way of dealing with drugs, ridiculous schooling, bad parenting and multiculturalism (I'm not racist, but like it or not, putting different races and religions together causes conflict. Call me racist if you like, but it would be like telling me I'm sexist for stating the fact that wives are sometimes beaten by husbands or that some women are gold diggers).

All good points. There needs to be a cultural change and it needs to start in the homes and especially in the public school system.

Private schools can throw out children who don't meet behavioural standards, and public schools should be able to do the same. They should be sent to some sort of 'boot camp' and not be allowed to hang around on the streets forming gangs and causing trouble.

That said, it's evident that alcohol is a major cause of civil unrest and it should be made harder to get, by means of earlier pub closing hours and taking it out of supermarkets.

 

[Julia]

I meant gentile as in gentry but you picked up the mistake and tried to infer I was against Jews , no matter, that was yesterday.

I didn't try to imply any such thing. I just gave you the definition of the word you used because I doubted that you had any such racist implication in mind. I thought you were perhaps trying to refer to 'gentlefolk' as in well mannered/cultured.

All good points. There needs to be a cultural change and it needs to start in the homes and especially in the public school system.

Many of the schools try hard but are frustrated by parents who don't support their efforts.

Private schools can throw out children who don't meet behavioural standards, and public schools should be able to do the same. They should be sent to some sort of 'boot camp' and not be allowed to hang around on the streets forming gangs and causing trouble.

This does actually happen in some instances. I've been involved for many years with a youth mentoring organisation and, until federal government funding was withdrawn last year, kids whose main purpose in life was to disrupt their classrooms, were sent to an alternative 'school' where there was a different approach. It was very successful in engaging these difficult/troubled kids and it's very short sighted of the government to withdraw funding.

That said, it's evident that alcohol is a major cause of civil unrest and it should be made harder to get, by means of earlier pub closing hours and taking it out of supermarkets.

Can you explain why people disposed to getting drunk and violent will no longer be so inclined if they can only buy grog before a certain time and from a bottle shop rather than with their groceries?

 

[rumpole]

Can you explain why people disposed to getting drunk and violent will no longer be so inclined if they can only buy grog before a certain time and from a bottle shop rather than with their groceries?

Violent drunks are lazy yobbos and therefore the harder you make it for them to get alcohol the less likely they are to bother. Also when they hang around in groups like at pubs mob mentality is more likely to set in and turn into a violent brawl than if they get drunk in front of their TV set.

 

[rumpole]

This does actually happen in some instances. I've been involved for many years with a youth mentoring organisation and, until federal government funding was withdrawn last year, kids whose main purpose in life was to disrupt their classrooms, were sent to an alternative 'school' where there was a different approach. It was very successful in engaging these difficult/troubled kids and it's very short sighted of the government to withdraw funding.

Campbell Newman may take the issue up and give funding in Qld. They are STATE schools after all and I saw him on TV mentioning something about Boot Camps as an alternative to gaols.

 

[McLovin]

Violent drunks are lazy yobbos and therefore the harder you make it for them to get alcohol the less likely they are to bother. Also when they hang around in groups like at pubs mob mentality is more likely to set in and turn into a violent brawl than if they get drunk in front of their TV set.

They'll just belt their wife/girlfriend/kids. But at least it it'll be out of sight.

It's a massive assumption that violent drunks are lazy yobbos.

 

[Glen48]

UK Guardian:
Doctors may be paid to monitor patients' drinking in effort to tackle spiralling cost of alcohol-related disease


GPs could be paid extra to question patients on their drinking habits and catch related problems early under proposals in the government's controversial new alcohol strategy.

Ministers hope the payments would provide an incentive to doctors to monitor the alcohol intake of their patients, to help tackle the spiralling costs of treating disease related to the consumption of drink.

Experts have advised the government to make the move as many drinkers do not come to a doctor citing a problem because they are not aware of the risks. Even couples who share a bottle of wine over dinner most evenings unwittingly increase their chances of cancer and strokes.

From next year, patients over the age of 40 will be questioned on their alcohol intake as part of general health checks which occur every five years. But the government is also looking to encourage GPs to routinely ask patients of all ages about their drinking habits when they come into practices.

Doctors are currently able to increase their practices' income by carrying out a checklist of services, and spotting illnesses and diseases listed under a system of good practice called the Quality and Outcomes Framework (QOF).

They are currently paid extra for monitoring chronic diseases such as asthma, diabetes and coronary heart disease.

Now the new strategy, says the Department of Health will "look at the data from the recently published Screening and Intervention Programme for Sensible Drinking (Sips) research to see if it can support further action by GPs [on alcohol] via the Quality and Outcomes Framework."

A standard "alcohol identification" test used by GPs involves a patient being asked a series of questions about their alcohol intake and the impact of drink on their day-to-day life.

Those who show signs of dependency or high use will be given 10 minutes of advice by nurses or referred to a specialist.

The strategy document says: "Identification and Brief Advice (IBA) is a simple intervention aimed at individuals who are at risk through drinking above the guidelines, but not typically seeking help for an alcohol problem. IBA has been proven to reduce drinking, leading to improved health and reduced calls on hospital services. At least one in eight at-risk drinkers reduce their drinking as a result of IBA."

Professor Ian Gilmore, special adviser to the Royal College of Physicians and the chair of the Alcohol Health Alliance, said he believed it was an important step that would prove cost effective.

"The evidence suggests that this actually works," he said. "Opportunistic detection of people, particularly professionals, works because they do respond. It works because you are asking people to reflect on their drinking, asking them if there might be a problem coming up."

However, the policy was described as an "extension of the nanny state" by Tory MP Philip Davies. "I would expect this sort of nonsense from the Labour party, not the Conservative party. I thought the whole point of our reforms was to put trust in GPs," he said. "I am sure they know how to look after their patients and don't need to be told how to do it. This is just more unnecessary government intervention, putting their nose in where it isn't needed."

Last week the government announced its intention to have a minimum price for alcohol amid growing concerns over the UK's drinking habits. The risk of hypertension (high blood pressure) is particularly acute for drinkers, yet about a third of men aged between 25 and 64 and a fifth of women in the same age group, say they drink at levels above the lower-risk guidelines. Furthermore, 8% of men and 4% of women in this age group admit to drinking at levels more than twice the lower-risk guidelines.

Despite the evidence, four out of five people who regularly drink above the guidelines do not think their drinking is putting their long-term health at risk. Whereas most smokers wish to quit, only 18% of people who drink above the lower-risk guidelines say they actually wish to change their behaviour.

 

[Bill M]

It's a massive assumption that violent drunks are lazy yobbos.

I agree with this too. Most violence I saw was from the 18 to 30 y/o age group on Friday and Saturday nights after their working week. It's the lets get p!ssed it's Friday night crowd, I've worked hard for it, it's my right. Then at 12, 1 AM or 3 AM (or chose your own closing time) when it all closes it's all hell to pay. We need cultural change, Friday night binge drinking is just stupid.

---
We have created a culture where young people who do not get drunk and party hard on a regular basis are considered abnormal. How do I know this? I'm a 19-year-old who regularly sees my peers getting drunk and viewing it as some sort of rite of passage. I see others my age who consider getting drunk the only means of having fun. I'm up against a social expectation that assumes I regularly partake in binge-drinking events.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/my-name-is-australia-and-im-an-alcoholic-20100826-13tqi.html
---

 

[jancha]

The problem there is gangs and then the police response to the situation. There is nothing to say that alcohol was even involved at all in this incident. It could have been of course, but given that we're talking about a gang I'd say it was more likely either other drugs or simply a random act.

I've had rather a lot of involvement in this issue one way and another over the past few years and my ultimate conclusion is that "smart" lawyers, slack judges and the so-called "justice" system are the real problems.

We've had late trading nightclubs etc for decades and yet problems are relatively more recent. Partly they do probably relate to the failed "economic rationalism" which did away with many keepers of community standards (and many jobs) for no real gain in terms of cost to consumers. But a bigger part of it comes down to there simply being no consequence for breaking the law.

If I park my car too long in a legal parking space then I'll be fined for doing so. Fair enough, there's a sign and I've broken the law. Likewise I could be fined if I decided to mow the lawn at 9am on a Sunday or don't properly secure the load in the trailer on the way to the tip. Those are the sorts of crimes that the average person could foreseeably be fined for, mostly due to making simple mistakes.

But someone can smash someone's face in and they'll get a warning and suspended sentence at most. That's the problem. There are bigger penalties for comparatively trivial offences such as those I've listed. There's no actual deterrent to those who like to throw punches, and that is the crux of the problem. Get rid of overly lenient judges, "smart" lawyers and the "slap on the wrist" approach and that will fix the problem.

Agree with you on that Smurf violence should'nt be tolerated and the justice system is'nt helping the matter. Police sometimes get it wrong but they dont seem to want turn around and say hey we got it wrong. No they BS and fabricate stories with colleagues in order to try and make the charge stick for the police prosecutor. I know there's good and bad in every work place but in part i've lost respect for some of them.
When i travelled to Bali ( Even tho i didn't like it there) i found that the taffic was crazy but i didn't witness any road rage or people fighting while partying late at night. They seem to have a more patience about them or maybe they are afraid of the consequences of being caught by the local coppers. Harsher penalties or just their non violent nature i do know but what ever it is for the amount of partying that goes on there's very little violence. If there is any it's usually the tourist not the locals.
I could be wrong but for the 10 days i was there it was all fairly tame.

 

[IFocus]

In WA alcohol violence is real but the problem is increased by the use of drugs ice etc WA police must be sick of being punching bags.

 

[Smurf1976]

I agree with this too. Most violence I saw was from the 18 to 30 y/o age group on Friday and Saturday nights after their working week. It's the lets get p!ssed it's Friday night crowd, I've worked hard for it, it's my right. Then at 12, 1 AM or 3 AM (or chose your own closing time) when it all closes it's all hell to pay. We need cultural change, Friday night binge drinking is just stupid.

Reflecting on my own experience here in Hobart the trend is pretty clear.

Back in the old days when everyone was kicked out of Surreal (by far the biggest club in Hobart during the 10 years it operated) at 4:55am, there wasn't too much trouble since the majority had already left anyway. Other clubs closed at the same time and were also two thirds empty by then on most nights, and some closed earlier for purely commercial reasons (notably the club that used to be at the casino).

Then along came the whinging residents and that was the end of Surreal. Then came the over-crowding of other venues on the Waterfront and that's when the real trouble started. The same number of people trying to get in somewhere, but with 45% of the entire nightclub capacity in the city closed in one fell swoop, it was never going to work. And so came the fights...

Then came the 3am lockout and the problems with too many people trying to get taxis all at once, compounded by the lack of any supervised taxi ranks nearby. That just moved the fights from inside to outside.

Then came what should have happened in the first place, a dedicated Police unit to deal with the problem, proper taxi facilities, CCTV surveillance of the whole area and a crackdown on one certain operator with a reputation for fights inside their premises.

And now we have relatively little trouble once again, as was the case prior to 2005 when the trouble all started with the demise of Surreal.

Moral of the story? Closing clubs doesn't work that is for sure. It just makes the problem far worse.

Making them close early simply makes them unprofitable and encourages owners to sell as much grog as possible, as quickly as possible in order to earn the same $ in less time. So that's in much the same category as outright closure, unless we can simply shift the start of the night earlier as well (eg opening at 6 instead of 9 or 10) but that requires broader societal changes to work so it's not an easy fix.

What did work? More police helped. A couple of high profile incidents swayed public opinion too. CCTV did its' bit too. And getting a certain category of people out of the area, by keeping them out of their favourite venue (which was the only one that would let them in anyway) helped too.

 

[Julia]

They'll just belt their wife/girlfriend/kids. But at least it it'll be out of sight.

It's a massive assumption that violent drunks are lazy yobbos.

+1. Rumpole, perhaps you could explain how you have concluded that violent drunks are necessarily lazy yobbos?

 

[rumpole]

+1. Rumpole, perhaps you could explain how you have concluded that violent drunks are necessarily lazy yobbos?

If they weren't lazy they would be doing something useful instead of hanging around in pubs drinking.

 

[Julia]

There are plenty of violent drunks who never go near a pub.
You would need to talk to their families, rather than make illogical assumptions.

 

[rumpole]

There are plenty of violent drunks who never go near a pub.
You would need to talk to their families, rather than make illogical assumptions.

That's another matter, the thread started off with street violence, I was referring to that.