When was the past the same as the current (Coronavirus) and what happened?

[Smurf1976]

I just wish more people just left it to the experts, rather than run a sweep on a lockdown.

A thing about convincing people to leave something to the experts is that they need to have confidence in those experts.

They don't need to understand it all themselves, but they need to be confident that those making the decisions do understand it and will actually make correct decisions.

That confidence has been seriously eroded by a number of things including but not limited to the delay of more than two months in implementing proper quarantine for arrivals to Australia, allowing cruise ships to continue to unload passengers with no quarantine until multiple infections had occurred from that source alone and by a perception that Australia is tied to China to the point of compromising the independence of decision making.

As a result we've seen pretty much the entire population lose money on investments, heaven only knows how many people lose their jobs, literally every major event cancelled nationally, shortages of food and groceries, state borders closed, everything from churches to brothels are shut and now there's talk of shutting down to a point where even simply buying a new pair of shoes would be rather difficult if you wanted to try them on.

The experts may well be right but the onus is firmly on them to convince the public that this is the case. At the moment Joe Average seems to be wearing a rather large cost and wondering why we didn't start proper quarantine the moment the problem sprang up in China?

 

[qldfrog]

A thing about convincing people to leave something to the experts is that they need to have confidence in those experts.

They don't need to understand it all themselves, but they need to be confident that those making the decisions do understand it and will actually make correct decisions.

That confidence has been seriously eroded by a number of things including but not limited to the delay of more than two months in implementing proper quarantine for arrivals to Australia, allowing cruise ships to continue to unload passengers with no quarantine until multiple infections had occurred from that source alone and by a perception that Australia is tied to China to the point of compromising the independence of decision making.

As a result we've seen pretty much the entire population lose money on investments, heaven only knows how many people lose their jobs, literally every major event cancelled nationally, shortages of food and groceries, state borders closed, everything from churches to brothels are shut and now there's talk of shutting down to a point where even simply buying a new pair of shoes would be rather difficult if you wanted to try them on.

The experts may well be right but the onus is firmly on them to convince the public that this is the case. At the moment Joe Average seems to be wearing a rather large cost and wondering why we didn't start proper quarantine the moment the problem sprang up in China?

Seriously, how do you want me to trust my state government when yesterday elections here were maintained
Vote or be fined.
Find me a single serious scientist or expert, i mean serious, who can support that decision vs postal vote ir just postpone 6 months
Yet our local chief medical guru was supporting..no one can listen to her with a straight face anymore

Have been in isolation.full lockdown for 2 weeks, only plan to maybe do a grocery trip this week

 

[spooly74]

No mention of Swine Flu so far.
H1N1 in 2009-2010

700m - 1.4billion infected.
18k dead confirmed but estimated by the CDC at around 200k dead from subsequent lab results.

 

[sptrawler]

A thing about convincing people to leave something to the experts is that they need to have confidence in those experts.

They don't need to understand it all themselves, but they need to be confident that those making the decisions do understand it and will actually make correct decisions.

That confidence has been seriously eroded by a number of things including but not limited to the delay of more than two months in implementing proper quarantine for arrivals to Australia, allowing cruise ships to continue to unload passengers with no quarantine until multiple infections had occurred from that source alone and by a perception that Australia is tied to China to the point of compromising the independence of decision making.

As a result we've seen pretty much the entire population lose money on investments, heaven only knows how many people lose their jobs, literally every major event cancelled nationally, shortages of food and groceries, state borders closed, everything from churches to brothels are shut and now there's talk of shutting down to a point where even simply buying a new pair of shoes would be rather difficult if you wanted to try them on.

The experts may well be right but the onus is firmly on them to convince the public that this is the case. At the moment Joe Average seems to be wearing a rather large cost and wondering why we didn't start proper quarantine the moment the problem sprang up in China?

Yes I'm starting to see a few in hindsight articles in the papers today, from memory the Government was criticized for quarantining the first group, now they didn't do it soon enough?
Difficult to get right without a rear view mirror, but I personally think if they were aware earlier it should have been introduced earlier.
On the same note, I wish I had sold all my share, guess we can all get things wrong.
I guess Japan wished they had removed everyone from the Diamond Princess.

 

[SirRumpole]

Seriously, how do you want me to trust my state government when yesterday elections here were maintained
Vote or be fined.
Find me a single serious scientist or expert, i mean serious, who can support that decision vs postal vote ir just postpone 6 months
Yet our local chief medical guru was supporting..no one can listen to her with a straight face anymore

Have been in isolation.full lockdown for 2 weeks, only plan to maybe do a grocery trip this week

I've Internet voted in the last two State Elections in NSW, surely that could have been done in local elections ?

 

[Joules MM1]

Michael Greger M.D. FACLM March 27th, 2020

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/pandemics-history-prevention/

 

[IFocus]

I think that is great, I just wish more people just left it to the experts, rather than run a sweep on a lockdown.

Oh you mean like climate change.........that was a kick to the groin I believe


"Also your post is the first Ive seen on this forum, that has given the Government any credit, so kudos to you."


Rubbish Knobby has said that Morrison is doing a fantastic job, even I have said nice things.....maybe once but if you think a government or any government is beyond criticism thats beyond the pail.


"The one thing for sure it will all turn to $hit if we dont follow someone, up untill now everyone is an expert, with an answer."

The Yanks are following Trump over a cliff that's not good.

"But there is only one person who will wear the responsibility for the outcome, so why dont they either let him get on with it, or take the responsibility for it."

Morrison (your love child) is a political animal and a very good one that's a long way from good leadership.

"If the press want to do a good job, they need to support the Federal Cabinet."


Its the medias job to question to date they have done a fair job right across the board IMHO


SP get off the high horse.

 

[moXJO]

Oh you mean like climate change.........that was a kick to the groin I believe


"Also your post is the first Ive seen on this forum, that has given the Government any credit, so kudos to you."


Rubbish Knobby has said that Morrison is doing a fantastic job, even I have said nice things.....maybe once but if you think a government or any government is beyond criticism thats beyond the pail.


"The one thing for sure it will all turn to $hit if we dont follow someone, up untill now everyone is an expert, with an answer."

The Yanks are following Trump over a cliff that's not good.

"But there is only one person who will wear the responsibility for the outcome, so why dont they either let him get on with it, or take the responsibility for it."

Morrison (your love child) is a political animal and a very good one that's a long way from good leadership.

"If the press want to do a good job, they need to support the Federal Cabinet."


Its the medias job to question to date they have done a fair job right across the board IMHO


SP get off the high horse.

Who gets it right in the end?
We won't know for a few years. It's not just deaths by coronavirus we need to gauge by. But any increased suicides due to the economy being impacted by govt measures, increased drug/alcohol etc. A lot of factors.

 

[sptrawler]

Oh you mean like climate change.........that was a kick to the groin I believe


"Also your post is the first Ive seen on this forum, that has given the Government any credit, so kudos to you."


Rubbish Knobby has said that Morrison is doing a fantastic job, even I have said nice things.....maybe once but if you think a government or any government is beyond criticism thats beyond the pail.


"The one thing for sure it will all turn to $hit if we dont follow someone, up untill now everyone is an expert, with an answer."

The Yanks are following Trump over a cliff that's not good.

"But there is only one person who will wear the responsibility for the outcome, so why dont they either let him get on with it, or take the responsibility for it."

Morrison (your love child) is a political animal and a very good one that's a long way from good leadership.

"If the press want to do a good job, they need to support the Federal Cabinet."


Its the medias job to question to date they have done a fair job right across the board IMHO


SP get off the high horse.

Like Ive said we have to follow someone and Morrison is in the driving seat whether people like it or not and he will be judged in hindsight, so all the media is doing is being disruptive.
Just my opion and I dont have a horse.

 

[Smurf1976]

Difficult to get right without a rear view mirror, but I personally think if they were aware earlier it should have been introduced earlier.

Where the issue arises is that the risk of a pandemic was known, it has happened before, and the consequences are extremely serious.

By late January China had locked down Wuhan and there were plenty of people raising serious concerns that Australia was continuing to allow people into the country from known infected areas overseas.

It’s one thing to have the brakes on the bus fail without warning and despite regular maintenance. That’s in the category of genuine misfortune.

It’s another thing entirely to take a bus load of passengers down a steep hill when it is already clear that something is wrong with the brakes. That’s negligence.

There were quite a few passengers raising concerns about the brakes circa 21 January. It took government until the end of March to heed them, by which time the bus had already run off the road.

That’s not to say that Labor would necessarily have done any better. We do however have a situation that’s going to take an extremely high toll on the population that can’t possibly be reversed.

 

[qldfrog]

I've Internet voted in the last two State Elections in NSW, surely that could have been done in local elections ?

no, not here
There is telephone voting for disabled, but system collapsed under demand
i managed to request postal vote and did it that way, but many missed as the deadline was quite early on, and not really advertised much.
They then advertised a bit more early voting booths... better but still not good enough and unnecessary risk
So not surprised i was the only one with a mask this morning at bunning, one comrade with mask at ALDI(asian) and 12 people waiting in a 4 sqr meter sidewalk chatting and waiting for their takeaway coffee.in the village.
Real aussies are not wimps wearing masks or scared by a virus mate.... .
I am more sad than mad as statistically i will be ok, but how many unnecessary deaths thanks to these dicks be they the crowd at the cafe..in that case a group of motorbikers, or our state government incompetence.

 

[sptrawler]

Where the issue arises is that the risk of a pandemic was known, it has happened before, and the consequences are extremely serious.

By late January China had locked down Wuhan and there were plenty of people raising serious concerns that Australia was continuing to allow people into the country from known infected areas overseas.

It’s one thing to have the brakes on the bus fail without warning and despite regular maintenance. That’s in the category of genuine misfortune.

It’s another thing entirely to take a bus load of passengers down a steep hill when it is already clear that something is wrong with the brakes. That’s negligence.

There were quite a few passengers raising concerns about the brakes circa 21 January. It took government until the end of March to heed them, by which time the bus had already run off the road.

That’s not to say that Labor would necessarily have done any better. We do however have a situation that’s going to take an extremely high toll on the population that can’t possibly be reversed.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying a great job has been done, what I am saying is the media and people's lack of respect for authority is appalling in Australia.
Take the today, aside from the general snipping that goes on, at the Government, apparently a group of doctors returned, didn't self isolate and flew all over Australia.
NSW and Victoria, which have the biggest outbreaks, also appear to have the largest amount of social disobiedience regarding following the directives.
With regard an analogy I would compare it to a project group, discussing a project, eventually they decide on the steps they will take and discuss it with the working party.
Eventually you get fairly good concensus on how to proceed and start the project.
Then from day one you have a group in the work party who just want to snipe and be counter productive, no matter how the overall project is going, they will constantly criticise management.
It is normal and it happens on all projects, but it doesn't make any less annoying, if you pull them up and say ok you say what we should do next, they say nothing, yet the sniping doesn't stop either.
The way I see it mistakes have and will be made, either by poor management or by poor discipline by the general public, neither will be completely irradicated and it won't be untill it is over that we find out what can be done better.
But to think any Australian Government of either persuasion would not do their utmost to prevent this, is just poor form IMO and reflects badly on everyone from the Government to the advising groups and the Premiers.
Who I am sure are not enjoying the current situation.
Just my opinion.

 

[SirRumpole]

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying a great job has been done, what I am saying is the media and people's lack of respect for authority is appalling in Australia.

Being a convict country lack of respect for authority has always been the norm. We are now a free nation and the masses don't like politicians, police or bureaucrats telling the voters what to do.

The fact that we have had 70 years post war of a relatively comfortable life means that the notion of self sacrifice for the greater good has been very diluted as a concept. What will drive people to do the right thing is fear, and of course that will also drive them to do the wrong thing like panic buy and fight each other over toilet paper.

Thinking back to the AIDS epidemic, a lot of people in the risk groups didn't change their lifestyle until members of their cohort started dying en masse, and it took a fairly gruesome but honest "grim reaper" ad campaign to get them to change their ways.

If the sight of army trucks carrying bodies out of Italian hospitals don't change people's minds about COVID you wonder what will. A year in gaol perhaps ?

 

[IFocus]

Who gets it right in the end?
We won't know for a few years. It's not just deaths by coronavirus we need to gauge by. But any increased suicides due to the economy being impacted by govt measures, increased drug/alcohol etc. A lot of factors.

Agree devils decisions left right and centre writing the manual as they go, still there has never been a time in history where as much knowledge has been available to make good decisions.

To be fair I think the government (fed) have done a fair job.

Interestly the right wing have been strangely silent, I think clearly out of their depth not being able to use spin against science must be galling for them.

 

[qldfrog]

Being a convict country lack of respect for authority has always been the norm. We are now a free nation and the masses don't like politicians, police or bureaucrats telling the voters what to do.

The fact that we have had 70 years post war of a relatively comfortable life means that the notion of self sacrifice for the greater good has been very diluted as a concept. What will drive people to do the right thing is fear, and of course that will also drive them to do the wrong thing like panic buy and fight each other over toilet paper.

Thinking back to the AIDS epidemic, a lot of people in the risk groups didn't change their lifestyle until members of their cohort started dying en masse, and it took a fairly gruesome but honest "grim reaper" ad campaign to get them to change their ways.

If the sight of army trucks carrying bodies out of Italian hospitals don't change people's minds about COVID you wonder what will. A year in gaol perhaps ?

Italians are kissing dirty bastards, we are aussies raised in clean warm air and crystal water, it won't happen here maaaaate
Chill out

 

[qldfrog]

I think more seriously the absence of real adversity made us especially weak boned and irresponsible.
Hopings something good will come out of this terrible legacy

 

[Smurf1976]

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying a great job has been done, what I am saying is the media and people's lack of respect for authority is appalling in Australia.

I think that comes from the overall malaise of politics.

We've arrived at a point where both sides play the game of divide and conquer, seeking to split the vote with their slice being the larger one. What needs to happen? Well we need the Coalition doing more to help workers and ordinary people. We need Labor focusing more on business and investors. In both cases I mean for the past 20 years and the next 20 years, not just in the midst of a crisis. In short the debate needs to be about the best policies to move the nation forward not one tribe versus another.

Can't happen? Well it has happened in the past at a state level so it can be done. For that matter it has happened in the past at a federal level too.

Do that, focus on the whole not two tribes, and then the position of PM will command respect and be taken far more seriously.

But to think any Australian Government of either persuasion would not do their utmost to prevent this, is just poor form IMO and reflects badly on everyone from the Government to the advising groups and the Premiers.

I think the problem is the public doesn't trust those in government on either side of politics.

To be blunt there's an underlying thought in the minds of many that someone's getting rich out of this or that favours are being done based on money. The Grand Prix and Crown casino in Victoria are obvious examples of that. If it looks suspicious, if it fails the so-called pub test which it most certainly does, then that doesn't improve credibility of those selling the message (Vic state government in the case of those two examples - tried to keep them going despite the risks until others forced their hand).

If any Australian business were to be taken over by foreign owners during all this then that would really add fuel to the fire so far as public trust is concerned. That's one thing where government could step in right now and say no.

In short I think people just don't trust politicians not to sell out to the lowest bidder or do someone a special deal amidst all this.

 

[Dona Ferentes]

Magnificent leadership by PM on TV tonight.

 

[sptrawler]

Agree devils decisions left right and centre writing the manual as they go, still there has never been a time in history where as much knowledge has been available to make good decisions.

To be fair I think the government (fed) have done a fair job.

Interestly the right wing have been strangely silent, I think clearly out of their depth not being able to use spin against science must be galling for them.

From my perspective, I find it very difficult to post on this subject, it is one of if not the most distressing thing since the WW2 and if I can't add positive input, I would rather not post much at all.
I have my thoughts on all this and shared them quite a while ago, with one of the ASF members, I think everyone needs to be able to confide in someone about this it is just so overwhelming.
IMO many on here, same as I, have elderly parents or are elderly themselves, keeping the threads positive and encouraging IMO is very important.
Just my thoughts.

 

[SirRumpole]

From my perspective, I find it very difficult to post on this subject, it is one of if not the most distressing thing since the WW2 and if I can't add positive input, I would rather not post much at all.
I have my thoughts on all this and shared them quite a while ago, with one of the ASF members, I think everyone needs to be able to confide in someone about this it is just so overwhelming.
IMO many on here, same as I, have elderly parents or are elderly themselves, keeping the threads positive and encouraging IMO is very important.
Just my thoughts.

The one thing we have to do is keep negative politics out of the commentary.

For the record I'm not a big fan of Conservative politics but I've been impressed by Morrison's actions so far on the various economic packages he's released. They look after ordinary people and the businesses that employ them.

The thing that really worries me economically is how we pay for all this in the years to come. As the whole world basically is involved I hope they all get together and wipe off the debts of countries whose economies can't repay what they owe. Let's see China start the ball rolling on this, they owe us one.

But that's all secondary to the health aspects. Everything must be done to stamp this thing out and find a vaccine. As long as idiots like Trump don't try and profiteer from it I'm confident it can be done within a year.