Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid dead!

[2020hindsight]

They brought down power lines too? I thought they shot someone.

Just an example that you don't need to be a perfect cop to get the basics right.

Chops
I think you've successfully shown up a problem Snake has with following your arguments lol...

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2444450.htm
Researchers from the University of NSW have found that people with frontotemporal dementia (FTD) ”” the second most common form of dementia in people under 65 ”” cannot detect sarcasm and are more gullible than other people.

 

[2020hindsight]

Just like all humans.

Snake - if all human (groups) had more than most (in their group), then statistically and mathematically it doesn't add up.

:topic

Did you know that the great majority of people have more than the average number of legs?

It's obvious, really: Among the nominal 20 million people in Aus, there are probably 2,000 people who have only one leg. Therefore, the average number of legs is

((2000*1) + (19,998,000*2)) / 20,000,000 = 1.999

And because most people have two legs...

PS It's arguably relevant I guess.
this kid could be just the 2001st Aussie with one leg ..
instead of being a corpse with a dozen bullets (half dozen whatever) in his tiny chest.

 

[2020hindsight]

:topic

Did you hear about the politician who promised that if he were elected he'd make certain that everybody would get an above-average income?

 

[nick2fish]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

Surely even shields and long batons in the hands of fully trained police officers can disarm a skinny kid, especially if there is four of you.

Exactly
You know the same thing happened at Bondi Beach, 1997 (or 1998) I think. Mentally crazed ,man this time, with knife, surrounded by police and shot dead in "self defense" When I did my security training back then it was used as a case example of all the wrong things to do. One of the more contributing factors was the fact that all officers were pointing the gun at the same time and if you aim a gun long enough the trigger will be pulled when the stress level builds to the red.
The stress level was exaggerated within the group focus on the one course of action.


http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/stories/s48571.htm

 

[Julia]

chops - I have a feeling that a few posters here trust everything the police do - unquestioned.

Or maybe some people, not having been there, simply reserve judgement and await the result of coroner's report.

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/13/2445656.htm

Liberty Victoria statistics show 42 people were shot dead by an officer between 1987 and 2005; more than double that of New South Wales in the same period

Vic twice as many shootings (dead) as NSW. (despite a smaller population , 75% of NSW - ok Melb 88% of Sydney's population)
The other states were in the single figures.

 

[2020hindsight]

Or maybe some people, not having been there, simply reserve judgement and await the result of coroner's report.

exactly - say Julia - have you ever heard of a case where the police were less than perfect.

btw, you're aware aren't you that there are calls for an independent enquiry into the police actions, - but sure enough it will be done by police.

Hopefully it's better than Hong Kong
I was involved in a Coroner's enquiry there, over an industrial accident.
The guilty party bribed "someone" and didn't have to appear.
But... I spent 2 hours in the witness box being questioned by the guilty party's lawyer.

 

[tigerboi]

THE KID WAS 57 KGS!!!!! 5'7!!!!

I cannot believe some adult cops with batons cant take him out, even with knives.

So what if he had a shaved head. How many men do?

How many teenagers have difficult times? especially growing up without a father.

This whole redneck right wing argument that he deserved to be shot, that our taxes pay for his bludging parents, etc etc is rubbish. A 15 yr old 57kg kid having a disturbed difficult time (thanks to our society no doubt) does not deserve to be shot. Period.

for me this post says it all...way way over the top,kid was more scared than the coppers...tb

 

[chops_a_must]

exactly - say Julia - have you ever heard of a case where the police were less than perfect.

btw, you're aware aren't you that there are calls for an independent enquiry into the police actions, - but sure enough it will be done by police.

Haha... I love these.

You can see the finding now, "Nothing to see here, move along. Our cops did nothing wrong. Extra resources, blah blah blah."

It's almost always an admission of guilt in itself.

 

[nunthewiser]

I think this is a prime example that oz needs judge dredd guarding our streets , he woulda sorted the situation with a quick smack in the ear with his telescopic truncheon


personally think the police made the wrong desicion and shoulda zapped him with a tazar or at least attempted the ole baton in the chops trick first , after all there was a few of them .

but hey i wasnt there so very easy to say "should of done this and that " from the comfort of my vibrating bed

 

[Boggo]

personally think the police made the wrong desicion and shoulda zapped him with a tazar or at least attempted the ole baton in the chops trick first , after all there was a few of them.

I would be surprised if anyone would disagree with that, might have been different if it was a one on one situation.
Pretty poor effort.

Having said that though, the general impression seems to still be that we should just throw more money and resources at these members of minority groups to change their ways.

Interesting article in the Weekend Australian, and an interesting piccy of his rocket scientist mates, NASA would love to snap those guys up and take them off our welfare system

 

[JTLP]

Let's break some things down here:

1. A man that can run the 100m sprint in 10 seconds can do 10 m/s. Agreed?
Someone who can run it in 15 seconds can do it in roughly 7 m/s. So 15 metres is basically 2 seconds of thinking in the eyes of these officers?

2. The officers aren't going to sit and have a chat about the situation (see point 1 about time). They have to respond how they see best for the situation at hand (family member in police force outlined this for me)

3. Can you imagine how hard it would be to shoot someone in the legs or arms in a 2 second time span? Imagine missing? (the kid was skinny wasn't he ). Well there goes 1 officer who wasn't trained in sniper styles...

Chops, you are so highly critical of police it's ridiculous. It's a very sad/confronting situation for the family, the officers and society...but you have to realise that Australia has a damn safe society and as sad as it is I would rather 1 shooting every 5 years then some of the stuff I have seen whilst overseas...Actually scrap that in a perfect world no shootings (of course) but the death of a minor is, as I said earlier, a drop in the ocean to the things I have seen minors do and been involved in overseas.

 

[chops_a_must]

Let's break some things down here:

1. A man that can run the 100m sprint in 10 seconds can do 10 m/s. Agreed?
Someone who can run it in 15 seconds can do it in roughly 7 m/s. So 15 metres is basically 2 seconds of thinking in the eyes of these officers?

Nope. Not agreed.

Most people would be lucky to run 20m in under 3 seconds. Most certainly couldn't.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Chops
I think you've successfully shown up a problem Snake has with following your arguments lol...

Hilarious 20-20!

They brought down power lines too? I thought they shot someone.

My attempt at petty humouristic sarcasm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chops_a_must
Just an example that you don't need to be a perfect cop to get the basics right.

With a nice response from chops aren't a must.

Chops
I think you've successfully shown up a problem Snake has with following your arguments lol...

Really?

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2444450.htm
Researchers from the University of NSW have found that people with frontotemporal dementia (FTD) — the second most common form of dementia in people under 65 — cannot detect sarcasm and are more gullible than other people.

So are you saying he has dementia? I was the one using sarcasm and it wasn't detected.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Snake - if all human (groups) had more than most (in their group), then statistically and mathematically it doesn't add up.
Quite true.

I think the demographic attracted by the force have more than most.

Not sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by It's Snake Pliskin
Just like all humans.

Just like all humans but NOT ALL humans. Like as in similar to.

Snake - if all human (groups) had more than most (in their group), then statistically and mathematically it doesn't add up.

True.

Quote:
Did you know that the great majority of people have more than the average number of legs?

Does that mean we are all spiders with eight legs but we just don't realise it?

It's obvious, really: Among the nominal 20 million people in Aus, there are probably 2,000 people who have only one leg. Therefore, the average number of legs is

((2000*1) + (19,998,000*2)) / 20,000,000 = 1.999

And because most people have two legs...

Interesting stuff 20/20.

PS It's arguably relevant I guess.
this kid could be just the 2001st Aussie with one leg ..
instead of being a corpse with a dozen bullets (half dozen whatever) in his tiny chest.

And blades gripped by his hands.

 

[Julia]

Don't go on about what the police did wrong. Just explain, exactly, what you would have done had it been your responsibility to contain the situation.

It may have been that there wasn't anything left they could do in that situation. Who knows? The fact that 3 of them shot, indicates that they were all largely on their weapons, which is what he wanted. Keeping hands away from their holsters in this situation may have been something that could have helped de-escalate the situation. Pepper spraying at less than 15m might have worked as well. Getting the cornered officer to stay away from their gun whilst the others made the call could also have been an option.

I asked you exactly how you would have contained the situation, given your absolute criticism of police actions (not sure how you even know exactly what these were.) In answer you say:

"May have been"
"May have"
"Could have been an option"

Doesn't sound like a plan to me. And you've had a couple of days to think about it!!

The point is that none of us know how the situation unfolded and, as others have pointed out, it was a dynamic, very stress inducing scene in which the police hardly were in a position to stop for a strategic discussion.

I guess you'd have felt better had a police officer been fatally injured by a knife.

 

[Julia]

Haha... I love these.

You can see the finding now, "Nothing to see here, move along. Our cops did nothing wrong. Extra resources, blah blah blah."

It's almost always an admission of guilt in itself.

So a coronial enquiry will not be objective?
Coroners are also corrupt in your view?

 

[Julia]

exactly - say Julia - have you ever heard of a case where the police were less than perfect.

Oh God, how typical of you 2020, with your absolute lack of logic.

Nowhere have I suggested any police were/are perfect.
Nowhere have I endorsed the actions of any police.
Nowhere have I criticised the actions of any police.

Why? Because I wasn't there and am therefore not in a position to pass any opinion.

I just get pretty tired of the constantly derisive and critical judgements of some ASF members who seem to be for ever promoting their own personal agenda instead of employing any level of objectivity.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

So a coronial enquiry will not be objective?
Coroners are also corrupt in your view?

Once again if the pre-requisite was for a coroner to be perfect then there would be no coroners.

If universities relied on perfect university kids then they would go broke.

It seems Julia we are two of the few who realise how difficult a cops job would be.

 

[2020hindsight]

I'll express it differently then Julia.
Vic police have a systemic problem.

Twice the next worse state in terms of fatal shootings (NSW).

They never accept a Royal Commission - they will be checked by their in-house "Homicide and Ethical Standards departments".

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/14/2445974.htm?section=justin
He told reporters the shooting was being investigated by the homicide and Ethical Standards departments.

Meanwhile it seems reasonable to assume there's some truth in the suggestion that the policy down there is "shoot first, ask questions later".

A Coroner's Court would have even less teeth. Internal inquiries have whitewashed previous shootings. I'm guessing that only an open Royal Commission would get to the truth (imo).

Oh God, how typical of you 2020, with your absolute lack of logic.

lol - your turn to do the next sudoku puzzle Julia

PS Thank god the press are a bit more inquisitive that you are Julia. - otherwise the next kid they shoot will be a ten year old blind kid at 30 metres instead of 15. (before taking that literally - check the possibility it might be a dementia test)