The symbol of the Halal Certification Authority Australia

[Value Collector]

I'm almost speechless. I think you have a comprehension problem, but let me summarise

Religious certification-

1* creates a divided society on religious lines
2* creates untestable criteria for certfication (praying before slaughter, proper pronunciation of Allah etc)
3* promotes and legitimises silly religious claptrap in a secular society (pork is unholy because God says so)
4* encourages religious people not to trust the laws of the land they reside in
5* is invalid because before certification, there was no guarantee that religious people have not eaten 'unholy' food, and if they haven't died yet then doing so is obviously not a mortal sin
6* does not offer anything more than laws of false advertising do
7* could breach Discrimination Laws by requiring religious affiliation for jobs in certified slaughterhouses

For starters

Let me come over your points,

1, religion in general does that, but if we are going to live in a country with religious freedom, we have to allow people to practice their religion

2, praying over the food is not a criteria the Australian certification promises, but any way, who cares

3, it doesn't promote or legitimise any thing, it just ensures certain predetermined criteria are met

4, the laws of the land have no rules about halal,

5, this one makes no sense, if people want to eat or not eat something, its there choice, the reason behind doesn't matter.

6, yes it does, it offering a consulting service to assist companies trying to comply to comply, it also offers random checks.

7, nope, it doesn't require that at all.

 

[Value Collector]

I certainly will, by not buying their product. I hope others protest against religion intruding into our society by doing the same.



.

If there was a country that ate a lot of cat, and even a lot of the non cat foods still had cat by products in them, and a bunch of us Australians moved to this country, and because eating cat is looked down on in Australian culture, would it really be that bad if we looked to avoid foods with cat in it, and if it was really wide spread use of cat, dog and horse by products, would it be that bad if we had a group to certify that certain brands went out of their way to avoid these meats and meat products we didn't want in our diet.

I know if I saw a company with a trusted non cat, dog or horse certification I would go for that meat in a market where those products were everywhere.

 

[luutzu]

I certainly will, by not buying their product. I hope others protest against religion intruding into our society by doing the same.


So if a Muslim eats non-Halal without knowing it and that's OK, there is no need for certification is there, because what they don't know won't hurt them. Their only problem is when they deliberately eat pork or ham etc.

There are so many loopholes in this Halal business that there is no point having it, and taking of money for "certification" is unnecessary.

I think all slaughterhouses would slaughter in the Halal way. So you might have a problem if you're a meat eater.
It's done, I think, not because they've been bought off by Muslims, but it just make business and production sense that if they also want to sell their beef etc. to Muslims, more efficient to slaughter in the way that's Halal because the infidels probably doesn't care how the slaughter is done - we'd all like it done humanely, but whether its head or its butt faces Mecca might be irrelevant.

I mean it's important to know what goes into our food, but Halal or Kosher doesn't seem that different to non-believers so why not let them have it if that's what make them happy.

There are a lot of other places where religion have done a great deal more harm than food preparation - and some of those harms are written into law or ingrained in the public mind. Discrimination against homosexuals; school chaplaincy; heck, asking most of the population to believe in some dude in the sky that is all powerful and should be thanked for the good deeds that's been done but kinda not be responsible for any bad, terrible, horrible things, at all!

 

[SirRumpole]

Let me come over your points,

1, religion in general does that, but if we are going to live in a country with religious freedom, we have to allow people to practice their religion

2, praying over the food is not a criteria the Australian certification promises, but any way, who cares

Every good Muslim should care because the Koran says that this must be done, so if it isn't then they are breaking their holy vows and will be condemned for this by God. Point being that if the Muslim heirarchy in Australia is going around rewriting the Koran to suit Australian conditions, then what can the
Koran be worth in the first place ?


3, it doesn't promote or legitimise any thing, it just ensures certain predetermined criteria are met

4, the laws of the land have no rules about halal,

We have laws about false advertising which would cover companies who falsely advertise that food is suitable for Muslims

5, this one makes no sense, if people want to eat or not eat something, its there choice, the reason behind doesn't matter.

6, yes it does, it offering a consulting service to assist companies trying to comply to comply, it also offers random checks.

7, nope, it doesn't require that at all.

Again, selective interpretation of the Koran

Forget the freedom of religion and free market stuff, what is your opinion of the points in red above ?

 

[SirRumpole]

I know if I saw a company with a trusted non cat, dog or horse certification I would go for that meat in a market where those products were everywhere.

Those requirements could be adequately dealt with under secular law, there is no need for a religious body to enforce it.

 

[DB008]

I think the general jist of this thread is, why do/does ~98% of the population have to bow down to ~2% with their religious requirements?


Hypothetical -

Can we play this game in reverse?

How would it run?

Let's take a country like Morocco/Libya/Algeria/Oman/Iraq with ~ 2-3 % Christian population and majority Muslim, would they be able to put a Christian symbol on food products?

 

[Value Collector]

Forget the freedom of religion and free market stuff, what is your opinion of the points in red above ?

I don't really care what it says in the qu'ran, or what your opinion or what a good Muslim would be.

The fact that a group of people want to avoid certain foods, and make sure animals are killed humanely is ok with me. As long as they are not forcing me to avoid those foods by banning them, I am quite happy for some manufacturers that don't use those ingredients to be certified by that group and then label them.

To be honest, if a chip manufactorer switched to frying in vegetable oil instead of pig fat so he could sell to a wider market, I don't really care.

Most modern religions has eased up on the old practices, I think thats a good thing, I don't know why your here complaining that Muslims aren't taking things seriously enough, lol

 

[Value Collector]

I think the general jist of this thread is, why do/does ~98% of the population have to bow down to ~2% with their religious requirements?


Hypothetical -

Can we play this game in reverse?

How would it run?

Let's take a country like Morocco/Libya/Algeria/Oman/Iraq with ~ 2-3 % Christian population and majority Muslim, would they be able to put a Christian symbol on food products?

Who is bowing down?

Just because other countries don't have religious freedom doesn't mean we should avoid it, other wise atheists like me might find my self burning at a stake, lol

Australia isn't a Christian country, it's not a Muslim country, it's not an atheist country its a secular democracy, where we all have the right to practice or not practice a religion.

At the end of the day, all this fuss you guys are causing is just because one group doesn't want to eat certain things, and some manufacturers what to let that community know that their product doesn't contain it. Thats it.

If you want to stop that, your infringing on the Free market and all the religious freedoms of others.

 

[DB008]

Who is bowing down?

Just because other countries don't have religious freedom doesn't mean we should avoid it, other wise atheists like me might find my self burning at a stake, lol

Australia isn't a Christian country, it's not a Muslim country, it's not an atheist country its a secular democracy, where we all have the right to practice or not practice a religion.

At the end of the day, all this fuss you guys are causing is just because one group doesn't want to eat certain things, and some manufacturers what to let that community know that their product doesn't contain it. Thats it.

If you want to stop that, your infringing on the Free market and all the religious freedoms of others.

Our 'freedom', will be our demise...

The tolerant are letting the intolerant dictate terms.

 

[SirRumpole]

I don't know why your here complaining that Muslims aren't taking things seriously enough, lol

Because it just shows what a farce the whole "religious food" thing is.

So let's hear your opinion of whether the idea of avoiding pork for religious reasons is silly or not. You are always on about attacking the ideas behind religion, so what do you think ? Don't give me "it's other people's right to think what they like", I'm not arguing that, I'm asking your opinion on the basis of the idea behind religious food.

and some manufacturers what to let that community know that their product doesn't contain it. Thats it.

No that's not it as I've said many times. I'm fine if manufacturers write on their product "suitable for Muslims". What I'm against is extracting a fee for so called "official" permission to sanctify such food. It amounts to commercial extortion imo.

 

[IFocus]

On the insiders today a interesting point was made

If you want to protest against Halal stop buying petrol.

BYW I think the Halal certification is over the top.

 

[boofhead]

I did laugh at Malcolm Farr saying that.

SirRumpole are you going to picket the Vegemite production because of what it has on the packaging? What about any certified vegetarian products (people have a belief to not eat meat)? I eat meat so why should I pay for a non-meat product to say it is ok for those that are opposed to how some animals are treated, eaten and so forth?

 

[IFocus]

I did laugh at Malcolm Farr saying that.

I did too it was a rare occasion where LOL was real.

 

[Value Collector]

Because it just shows what a farce the whole "religious food" thing is.

So let's hear your opinion of whether the idea of avoiding pork for religious reasons is silly or not. You are always on about attacking the ideas behind religion, so what do you think ? Don't give me "it's other people's right to think what they like", I'm not arguing that, I'm asking your opinion on the basis of the idea behind religious food.



No that's not it as I've said many times. I'm fine if manufacturers write on their product "suitable for Muslims". What I'm against is extracting a fee for so called "official" permission to sanctify such food. It amounts to commercial extortion imo.

it's not a farce, there are actual groups of people that dont want to eat certain things, a body has put together criteria that a bunch of those people accept, and they help companies that want their assistance to met the criteria.

Off course avoiding pork for religious reasons is silly, but so what, you have the right to be silly. It's no more silly than a catholic who believes they are eating the body of Christ at their sunday church service.

I have discussed my opinion on what you call commercial extortion, the fact is its not, they can just write that stuff if they want, however they also have the right to employ a certification body to assist them in ensuring they comply and also help them publicise the fact,

 

[luutzu]

Our 'freedom', will be our demise...

The tolerant are letting the intolerant dictate terms.

There's a contradiction and an LOL in there somewhere.

 

[Wysiwyg]

There has been enough bigotry toward religious halal practice on this thread. The faith has every right to notify people what food is approved. What right do non-religious people have to say they cannot certify and logo food products according to their belief. The answer is simple you bigots. Sharia law is here to stay and if you don't like it well there are international planes leaving daily.

Allahu Akbar

 

[Julia]

At the end of the day, all this fuss you guys are causing is just because one group doesn't want to eat certain things, and some manufacturers what to let that community know that their product doesn't contain it. Thats it.

I don't want to be involved in this apparently endless discussion, but just want to object to the above, VC.

The people who are against the Halal certification are, as I read their comments, not just being obstructive or recalcitrant. Rather they have genuine concerns about what to you are apparently insignificant measures being dismissed as irrelevant. They have every right to feel so concerned and to express that without being rubbished imo.

 

[SirRumpole]

Off course avoiding pork for religious reasons is silly, but so what, you have the right to be silly. It's no more silly than a catholic who believes they are eating the body of Christ at their sunday church service.

Well, I thought it was your mission in life to talk people out of silly religious ideas, but now I find you are more interested in exploiting them for money.

You spent a lot of time ridiculing my belief in an afterlife, maybe I should be glad you didn't pose as a psychic and asked for money to contact my dead relatives.

You have zero credibility now on religious matters in my book.

 

[luutzu]

There has been enough bigotry toward religious halal practice on this thread. The faith has every right to notify people what food is approved. What right do non-religious people have to say they cannot certify and logo food products according to their belief. The answer is simple you bigots. Sharia law is here to stay and if you don't like it well there are international planes leaving daily.

Allahu Akbar

I think non-religious people just use the taste test as their belief when buying food, to eat.

With our thoughts we make the world... what kind of world would we make if we get upset over people wanting their food in a certain way?

 

[luutzu]

I don't want to be involved in this apparently endless discussion, but just want to object to the above, VC.

The people who are against the Halal certification are, as I read their comments, not just being obstructive or recalcitrant. Rather they have genuine concerns about what to you are apparently insignificant measures being dismissed as irrelevant. They have every right to feel so concerned and to express that without being rubbished imo.

I think VC and others have been patiently dispelling all the concerns raised, else it'd just be a three words reply.

There doesn't seem to be any health or nutritional or economic issues with Halal or Kosher food; the biggest concern seem to be Sharia law and Muslims infiltrating our food supply by stealth.

Just checked as advised by Boofhead and Vegemite is both Halal and Kosher, and owned by the Americans! Wait until Dick Smith hear about this.