The symbol of the Halal Certification Authority Australia

[SirRumpole]

It would be a higher level of confidence than a company that just self certifies, would you not agree to that?

Sigh. Here we go again...

If a company self certifies there are always people going to try to catch them out. The Consumer protection agencies for a start. If a customer or one of these agencies catches the company out, they can be sued.

If there is a certifying agency, there is a financial relationship between the company and the certifyer. It's up to the certifying agency to do the checking, but if they find non compliance, they remove the certification and they don't get their money any more. That applies to Halal, the Cancer Council and whoever else. Money changing hands means corruption. Leave it to the market (you like free markets don't you ?). A random check every now and then is just as good as a certifying agency that receives money regularly. In fact, the Halal council could randomly check if food advertised as Halal actually is, and if not could take the suppliers to court. But they want their regular blood money from the companies don't they ?

 

[Value Collector]

Sigh. Here we go again...

no, we are not, this will be my last post.

It's up to the certifying agency to do the checking, but if they find non compliance, they remove the certification and they don't get their money any more.

It's not just about being a watch dog, it's also about helping a company, which wants to comply, learn what's on and what's not,

Money changing hands means corruption

Money changing hands doesn't automatically mean corruption,

. Leave it to the market (you like free markets don't you ?).

The certifying bodies are part of the market.

A random check every now and then is just as good as a certifying agency that receives money regularly

No government body regulates halal food production, and I don't really want one doing it.

.

In fact, the Halal council could randomly check if food advertised as Halal actually is, and if not could take the suppliers to court. But they want their regular blood money from the companies don't they ?

they do random check on the companies that have got their certification, giving them the responsibility for the entire market, but not giving them a source of funding or ability to remove certification would not be practical.

How are they going to take anyone to court, if they have no funds?

If these are your only gripes, I think you are way over reacting, I have said my piece and am now bored.

 

[luutzu]

Sigh. Here we go again...

If a company self certifies there are always people going to try to catch them out. The Consumer protection agencies for a start. If a customer or one of these agencies catches the company out, they can be sued.

If there is a certifying agency, there is a financial relationship between the company and the certifyer. It's up to the certifying agency to do the checking, but if they find non compliance, they remove the certification and they don't get their money any more. That applies to Halal, the Cancer Council and whoever else. Money changing hands means corruption. Leave it to the market (you like free markets don't you ?). A random check every now and then is just as good as a certifying agency that receives money regularly. In fact, the Halal council could randomly check if food advertised as Halal actually is, and if not could take the suppliers to court. But they want their regular blood money from the companies don't they ?

Oops. Greenspan was wrong about companies always doing the right thing when they self-regulate. If you can't trust a banker who can you trust ey?

Nothing is stopping any manufacturers from printing that they reckon their product is Halal, just the Arabs and Muslims who might pay for that product will not pay for it on that basis.

I think you do have a valid reason to be concern about Halal or Kosher food at the beginning - I mean, could be insulting to eat perceived "Muslim" or "Jewish" food, but after what VC, Herzy, SmellyTerror... and others have been saying, I don't think you should be concern anymore.

If we're seriously concern about what goes into (y)our food, maybe look into Genetically Modified products that's not being labelled, that's being added and mixed in with "normal" food. At least I don't think they are labelled as GMO in Australia. Now those guys literally play with nature right there.

I don't know much about GMOs, sounds like there's nothing to worry about as it's just science speeding up evolution - maybe... but who knows.

 

[SirRumpole]

How are they going to take anyone to court, if they have no funds?

The Islamic church has no funds ? Like the Catholic Church has no funds ?

If we're seriously concern about what goes into (y)our food, maybe look into Genetically Modified products that's not being labelled

This is not a matter of what goes into foods, it's a matter of religious "law" intruding into a secular society, among other things, and demanding blood money for a share of a market.

 

[SirRumpole]

Australia's consumer protection laws at work

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-13/accc-warns-egg-producers-over-free-range-claims/5886770

 

[Wysiwyg]

I did what I stated I would do and bought only food without the islamic law logo attached. $270 worth of food products which normal meat, fruit and vegetables was about two thirds. Products that I swapped for other brands were Fantastic crackers (religious cert. logo) to Sakata crackers (no logo) and Bega cheese (religious cert. logo) to Select Tasty cheese which is a Woolies brand but minus the religious logo.

 

[SirRumpole]

I did what I stated I would do and bought only food without the islamic law logo attached. $270 worth of food products which normal meat, fruit and vegetables was about two thirds. Products that I swapped for other brands were Fantastic crackers (religious cert. logo) to Sakata crackers (no logo) and Bega cheese (religious cert. logo) to Select Tasty cheese which is a Woolies brand but minus the religious logo.

I've decided to avoid religious branded food wherever possible. I don't mind buying products certified by the cancer council or heart foundation because they do work that benefits us all, but I'm not going to support religions that have no benefit to me because I'm not one of their group.

 

[Value Collector]

but I'm not going to support religions that have no benefit to me because I'm not one of their group.

Your not supporting religions when you by halal stuff.

 

[SirRumpole]

Your not supporting religions when you by halal stuff.

So we don't support the Heart foundation when we buy HF certified food ?

The certification costs get added to the price of the goods, minimal as they may be they are still there.

So where does the certification fee for Halal go to ? Not to any organisation that I would get a benefit from.

 

[Value Collector]

So we don't support the Heart foundation when we buy HF certified food ?

.

No, The company pays a fixed fee to the HF, you buying units after that does not produce an extra return to the HF, and the HF might charge $25K, So if the company sells 3,000,000 units, that's less than 1cent per unit.

But even then your not paying for that fraction of a cent per unit, the company is expecting to sell more units based on the certification, so that fraction of a cent per unit is being offset by more sales.

The certification costs get added to the price of the goods, minimal as they may be they are still there.

No, it would be coming from the companies marketing budget. Just like the cost of TV ads don't get added to the price of goods, the companies make investments in marketing to increase sales, which produce extra profits which pay for the investment in the marketing.

Not to mention that increased sales can lead to increased scale and a reduction in the production cost per unit. so halal opening more expect ops, means a reduction in production cost

So where does the certification fee for Halal go to ? Not to any organisation that I would get a benefit from

It would be going mostly to wages, rent, phone, internet, utilities and transportation of the certifying body.

If you want to maximise benefit to you, choose the product based on quality and price, not whether it has been certified, I mean picking an inferior product or paying $1 extra to avoid Halal would be just silly. So I say ignore Halal, and just make decisions on quality and price.

 

[herzy]

No, The company pays a fixed fee to the HF, you buying units after that does not produce an extra return to the HF, and the HF might charge $25K, So if the company sells 3,000,000 units, that's less than 1cent per unit.

But even then your not paying for that fraction of a cent per unit, the company is expecting to sell more units based on the certification, so that fraction of a cent per unit is being offset by more sales.

Not to mention that increased sales can lead to increased scale and a reduction in the production cost per unit. so halal opening more expect ops, means a reduction in production cost

If you want to maximise benefit to you, choose the product based on quality and price, not whether it has been certified, I mean picking an inferior product or paying $1 extra to avoid Halal would be just silly. So I say ignore Halal, and just make decisions on quality and price.

One could go a step further, and point out that a community boycott of halal products will actually make products more expensive - it creates division in the market, where two companies have to provide the same product (one halal certified, the other not), which is obviously going to be more expensive for everything.

 

[Calliope]

No, The company pays a fixed fee to the HF, you buying units after that does not produce an extra return to the HF, and the HF might charge $25K, So if the company sells 3,000,000 units, that's less than 1cent per unit.

But even then your not paying for that fraction of a cent per unit, the company is expecting to sell more units based on the certification, so that fraction of a cent per unit is being offset by more sales.



No, it would be coming from the companies marketing budget. Just like the cost of TV ads don't get added to the price of goods, the companies make investments in marketing to increase sales, which produce extra profits which pay for the investment in the marketing.

Not to mention that increased sales can lead to increased scale and a reduction in the production cost per unit. so halal opening more expect ops, means a reduction in production cost



It would be going mostly to wages, rent, phone, internet, utilities and transportation of the certifying body.

If you want to maximise benefit to you, choose the product based on quality and price, not whether it has been certified, I mean picking an inferior product or paying $1 extra to avoid Halal would be just silly. So I say ignore Halal, and just make decisions on quality and price.

But VC you promised yesterday;

this will be my last post.

I'm afraid your credibility has been devalued.

Sigh!!!

 

[Value Collector]

;



I'm afraid your credibility has been devalued.

Sigh!!!

I did say unless he brought up new information, this is a different angle he is attacking it from here, I was growing tired of the "certification is meaningless because they get paid angle".

I knew that wasn't his real problem with it, so wasn't interested anymore in that line of conversation.

 

[SirRumpole]

No, it would be coming from the companies marketing budget. Just like the cost of TV ads don't get added to the price of goods,

Surely that statement is either totally incorrect or very naive. All business costs are factored in to the price of goods. Advertising is a recognised business expense for tax purposes, I'm sure certification fees are as well. You may as well say salaries don't get added to the price of goods.

One could go a step further, and point out that a community boycott of halal products will actually make products more expensive - it creates division in the market,

The requirement for religious certification has already created division in the market along religious grounds.

So answer me this, what did Muslim people eat before Halal foods came on to the market in Australia ? Did they import all their foods from overseas, or did they eat the horrible heathen stuff ? If they did eat non-Halal foods, even a morsel, are they condemned now to a horrible fate in Hell ? Can any Muslim in Australia guarantee that they have never eaten "unholy" food ? If they can't, then they are all doomed by the Koran to suffer the consequences.

Really this religious stuff is so much nonsense. Legitimising it in our society is only adding to the fraud.

I knew that wasn't his real problem with it, so wasn't interested anymore in that line of conversation.

I suppose you are going to call me a racist again for opposing religion superstition ?

There are many reasons why religious food certification in a secular society is unacceptable. I've presented quite a few of them which you haven't managed to refute.

 

[Calliope]

I did say unless he brought up new information, this is a different angle he is attacking it from here, I was growing tired of the "certification is meaningless because they get paid angle".

I knew that wasn't his real problem with it, so wasn't interested anymore in that line of conversation.

Yes, I understand. When you become fixated on a topic it is difficult to move on while there are still some stones unturned.

 

[Value Collector]

Surely that statement is either totally incorrect or very naive. All business costs are factored in to the price of goods. Advertising is a recognised business expense for tax purposes, I'm sure certification fees are as well. You may as well say salaries don't get added to the price of goods.



.

No most production businesses have little control over their selling price, the market decides that, So they are not free to just keep raising prices as they see fit. but when it comes to marketing, which certification is part of, it generally works as follows.

a company establishes how much the market will be willing to pay for a product, then they work out how much it would cost to produce the unit, if the market will pay $1.50 and they can produce it for $1.00, they will put the product into production, because they can make a 33% margin.

Obviously though now that it's in production, they know the more units they sell, the more opportunities to make their 33% margin and if they can increase scale they can reduce production cost to maybe $0.95 increasing the profit margin to 37%. So they are willing to reinvest a portion of profits into their marketing budget, to grow sales.

The marketing budget will be spent on all sorts of things to promote the product, whether than be in store samples, TV, Radio, Newspaper ads, paying someone to organise and manage a facebook page or other social media, sports sponsorship, news letters, prize competitions and many more including certification.

So answer me this, what did Muslim people eat before Halal foods came on to the market in Australia ? Did they import all their foods from overseas, or did they eat the horrible heathen stuff ?

Their local halal butcher and halal deli probably had the meat market cornered, certification is a way for other companies to bust into that market.

and yes, a lot of trusted brands would be imported and sold in Muslim owned stores, if you have been to western Sydney you know what I mean, certification lets Aussie companies compete with these trusted brands.

and for every thing else they would have just taken a lot of time researching ingredents I guess or avoid products that they weren't sure about, certification lets the companies that met standards to be an easy choice, eg more sales.

If they did eat non-Halal foods, even a morsel, are they condemned now to a horrible fate in Hell ? Can any Muslim in Australia guarantee that they have never eaten "unholy" food ? If they can't, then they are all doomed by the Koran to suffer the consequences.

You would have to ask a muslim what they believe,

 

[SirRumpole]

and yes, a lot of trusted brands would be imported and sold in Muslim owned stores, if you have been to western Sydney you know what I mean, certification lets Aussie companies compete with these trusted brands.

I doubt if a few Muslim corner shops could supply the whole market so there would be a lot of stuff Muslims eat that could not be guaranteed to be Halal. Which sort of makes the whole Halal thing irrelevant anyway.

And, if Certification fees are a tax deduction to the companies, you and I Joe taxpayer are paying for it , like it or not.

 

[Value Collector]

And, if Certification fees are a tax deduction to the companies, you and I Joe taxpayer are paying for it , like it or not.

It's no different to any other marketing expense, do you consider the tax payer is paying for TV adds when companies choose to play them?

If it leads to higher sales and more exports, there will be increased profit and higher taxes, So your argument in just silly. Companies do it to maximise their earnings, not reduce them.

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you really are clutching at straws with these arguments.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Fact :- The companies paying for islamic logos are aiming at a specific consumer.
Fact :- The specific consumer number is minute in Australia. (approximately 400000 people)

This could mean

* the consumers in countries with islamic law are the main target.
* the companies have an islamic religious management.
* companies want to capitalise on the attention islam is increasingly receiving.
* companies foresee Australia integrating islamic law into the constitution.

 

[SirRumpole]

If it leads to higher sales and more exports, there will be increased profit and higher taxes, So your argument in just silly. Companies do it to maximise their earnings, not reduce them.

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you really are clutching at straws with these arguments.

Yes I understand your position completely

Religion is evil and immoral except when a company you own shares in can exploit it for greater profit.

How does it feel living off the earnings of immorality and evil ?