The Australian Greens party

[drsmith]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I find the responses to my post amusing, but not surprising. Extremely amused that people here would publicly espouse money over freedom.

You don't automatically overcome social issues by impoverishing the economy. It's the overall package that has to be considered relative to the other options on the table.

What I do find surprising is that even on ASF where you would have to assume the average poster to be several notches more financially literate than the average joe sixpack, even after a global financial crisis, people still believe that the Government somehow can control the economy.

The question is who can manage it better. Between the Coalition, Labor and the Greens, do you consider the Greens to be the better economic managers ?

Frankly, I side 100% with prawn on this one (prawn for PM? ). I am not voting for the Greens to see them win. I am voting for the Greens to see the party named LiberalLabor but also known as LaborLiberal squirm in their seats.

They don't need to win to exercise an economic influence beyond their vote.

Are you in favour of increased taxation in the form of a carbon tax and a net 66.5% tax on resource profits ?

 

[bellenuit]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

My two cents worth on the Greens.....

The Greens are always telling us how our mineral wealth is a finite resource, but don't seem to understand that investment capital is also a finite resource when it comes to their policies of taxing mining companies to the hilt to pay for their promises. The limited investment capital won't all just stay invested in Australia if there are more lucrative opportunities abroad.

 

[Calliope]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I think prawn and sinner are just having us on. It is hard to imagine that anyone contributing to a stock forum, and by inference supports the stock market and private enterprise, could cast their vote for a socialist party, which opposes private enterprise.

Perhaps it's just naivette.

 

[Smurf1976]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

The Greens want environmental costs incorporated into the cost of air travel.

http://greens.org.au/policies/sustainable-economy/sustainable-planning-and-transport

Sounds all warm and fuzzy but where's the detail ?
Does it mean they want to price air travel beyond the reach of ordinary Australians ?

Given that for almost the entire history of the party they have promoted tourism as the economic answer to just about everything, the notion of discouraging air travel is nothing short of a truly massive backflip.

Not a "non-core" backflip. But a backflip comparable to Liberal turning against business or Labor turning against unions. The Greens and tourism always were joined at the hip right from the beginning, the associated reliance on oil burning being a key issue that has long worried opponents of the Greens' economic policies.

 

[sinner]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I think prawn and sinner are just having us on. It is hard to imagine that anyone contributing to a stock forum, and by inference supports the stock market and private enterprise, could cast their vote for a socialist party, which opposes private enterprise.

Perhaps it's just naivette.

Surely you aren't serious? Sounds like naiveté on your part. Countries like Germany and Canada are far more socialist than us, in fact in Germany the "Social Democrats" have been one of the two major parties every election since 1949. Arguably some of the most successful economic times for Germany. Last time they were in power in grand coalition along with the Christial Social Union and Christian Democratic Union the DAX rose to all time highs.

Like I said, the government does not control the economy. Socialists or Liberal Conservative or Republican.

 

[electronicmaster]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Like I said, the government does not control the economy. Socialists or Liberal Conservative or Republican.

Have you been asleep Sinner?

Here are some things you forgotten about.

The government has indirect control of our markets using tools such as Taxes, freedom of speech, Fiat Currency, policies on the Internet, rivers, water, post mail, Oil and war. Oh, and Laws and more laws that contradict Laws

Just to name a few.

 

[Julia]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

As i said before i would rather give someone else a crack (be they Greens or Independents) at running the country, because you cant really do any worse than what the major parties have done.

From a overall policy perspective, what do the Greens offer that is better ?

Prawn, to say that the Greens 'can't do any worse' than the existing parties is simplistic and unreasonable. They can do way worse imo, or would if they actually ever are able to create legislation.

What about them do you think would be so good, other than their progressive social policies re drugs and gay marriage etc?

I find the responses to my post amusing, but not surprising. Extremely amused that people here would publicly espouse money over freedom.

To say that there is a choice between money and freedom is unreasonably simplistic. There is absolutely no need for that to be the case.
Can you really envisage a successful society under the Greens where to be sure homosexuals may marry, drug users will receive whatever they want on the PBS, every last spotty toed flea in the environment will be protected, along with all the gazillions of fruit bats etc etc, all the coal fired power stations will be closed down leaving us in the dark with a cooking fire in the back yard. Motor vehicles will be banned unless solar powered, and bikes plus helmets will be free to every person. Whacko! What a utopia that would be!

What I do find surprising is that even on ASF where you would have to assume the average poster to be several notches more financially literate than the average joe sixpack, even after a global financial crisis, people still believe that the Government somehow can control the economy.

Are you serious? You don't believe governments affect the health of economies?

Frankly, I side 100% with prawn on this one (prawn for PM? ). I am not voting for the Greens to see them win. I am voting for the Greens to see the party named LiberalLabor but also known as LaborLiberal squirm in their seats.

Well, without wanting to be disrespectful to you, sinner, you may be the one squirming in your seat when the Greens do get the balance of power. You may not be quite so gung ho about it then.

You don't automatically overcome social issues by impoverishing the economy. It's the overall package that has to be considered relative to the other options on the table.

Exactly.

They don't need to win to exercise an economic influence beyond their vote.

Are you in favour of increased taxation in the form of a carbon tax and a net 66.5% tax on resource profits ?

Allowing this to be repeated in the hope of a clear answer on it from sinner and prawn.

I have a great concern about the number of people who seem to be planning to vote Greens just as protest vote against the two main parties, without giving any serious thought to the potential ramifications.

 

[prawn_86]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I think prawn and sinner are just having us on. It is hard to imagine that anyone contributing to a stock forum, and by inference supports the stock market and private enterprise, could cast their vote for a socialist party, which opposes private enterprise.

Perhaps it's just naivette.

If there was a truely capitalist party in favour of one flat tax and no restrictions on anything else (save for basic human rights), no lobbyists, no spin, no industries supported or not allowed, no layers of government etc etc A truely laisse faire party I would vote for it in a flash. But there isn't so i can't

Prawn, to say that the Greens 'can't do any worse' than the existing parties is simplistic and unreasonable. They can do way worse imo, or would if they actually ever are able to create legislation.

What about them do you think would be so good, other than their progressive social policies re drugs and gay marriage etc?

I have a great concern about the number of people who seem to be planning to vote Greens just as protest vote against the two main parties, without giving any serious thought to the potential ramifications.

Julia,

I think that both parties have gone no-where with health, infrastructure, human rights, housing and the environment, everything seems the same as it was 10 yrs ago.

The only reason Australia is doing so well is because of our resources and the fact we happen to be close to China. Neither of the major parties have even been able to leverage off of this and value add into any industries either (except for unsustainable lobbied ones like the car industry). So no, i dont think the Greens could do any worse than what has already happened, and i'm happy to give a protest vote to them.

As i have said all along, their economic policies are not to my taste, but neither is that of the major parties. The majors will get nothing done, at least the Greens will/would try things. How much money do the majors waste on jobs for the boys, 'roundtables', discussions, investigations, process and all the other BS? If you cut this out and add the bad economic policies of the Greens it would probably come out equal anyway

Im also happy to vote independent, just anything to try and change away from, or change the major parties themselves.

 

[noco]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

The Australian News paper published in today's paper a photo of Bob Brown embracing his homosexual patner.

Whist it made me nauseous to view, I thought to myself what if it had been Tony Abbott in a similar situation. It would have been explosive headlines in every newspaper and TV with the Labor Party exploiting it to the fullest.

But comrade Brown gets away with it.

 

[sinner]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

To say that there is a choice between money and freedom is unreasonably simplistic.

Well right, I didn't actually say that. I said I was surprised posters premised a free society on a healthy economy, not the other way around.

Can you really envisage a successful society under the Greens where to be sure homosexuals may marry, drug users will receive whatever they want on the PBS, every last spotty toed flea in the environment will be protected, along with all the gazillions of fruit bats etc etc, all the coal fired power stations will be closed down leaving us in the dark with a cooking fire in the back yard. Motor vehicles will be banned unless solar powered, and bikes plus helmets will be free to every person. Whacko! What a utopia that would be!

Patronising, nonsensical, rubbish.

Are you serious? You don't believe governments affect the health of economies?

Stop misquoting me. I said governments can't control economies. Of course they can affect the health of an economy. But even central banks don't control economies. Electing a government based on the premise they are "better economic managers" completely ignores the reality of the situation we are in. Certainly it is obvious those "better economic managers" did not see the financial crisis coming, in fact if anything their policies exacerbated the problem. So what credentials are you actually trying to convince me to vote for?

Well, without wanting to be disrespectful to you, sinner, you may be the one squirming in your seat when the Greens do get the balance of power. You may not be quite so gung ho about it then.

Maybe. Or while we are throwing around patronising random hypotheticals, maybe you will be pleasantly surprised by a Greens government

Exactly.


Allowing this to be repeated in the hope of a clear answer on it from sinner and prawn.

Have said it before, will say it again. We need to put a price on impact of industry on our environment. Regardless of global warming. Regardless whether bigger polluters do it or not. Because sooner or later we will pay that cost anyway, voluntarily or not. The only difference is we currently have a chance to use Australian ingenuity and innovativeness to come up with a real solution before it all comes back to bite us on the **** and people are crying "o no nobody could have seen this coming".

I do not support a 66.5% tax on resource profits, but then again I don't support the huge subsidies which resource industry currently receives from the government at taxpayer expense and goes mostly into shareholder pockets and I don't support the huge influence resource industry lobbying currently has on our government+media.

I have a great concern about the number of people who seem to be planning to vote Greens just as protest vote against the two main parties, without giving any serious thought to the potential ramifications.

Seriously Julia, stop acting like I am an idiot or something. I have thought about it plenty. I lay awake at night thinking. There are people out there voting for Tony Abbott to "Stop the Boats", 5000 refugees p.a. who have a legal right to seek asylum (what is that as a % of our total annual immigration?), there are people out there voting Liberal just because their Pastor or Priest told them to, there are people out there voting Labor because they support middle class welfare. Some people vote one way just because their parents did. I am serious when I say I want to see those scum sucking bastards squirm.

When I wrote to MPs and Senators about the erosion of what are supposed to be inalienable human rights, only the Greens gave two ****s. Guess what, I will repay the kindness in kind. To those who succumbed to nationalistic fascist fervor, you will get your comeuppance "under the line" come election day. Shame you can't put more than one party as your last preference.

 

[electronicmaster]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I have a great concern about the number of people who seem to be planning to vote Greens just as protest vote against the two main parties, without giving any serious thought to the potential ramifications.

I second that.

 

[Calliope]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

The Australian News paper published in today's paper a photo of Bob Brown embracing his homosexual patner.

Whist it made me nauseous to view, I thought to myself what if it had been Tony Abbott in a similar situation. It would have been explosive headlines in every newspaper and TV with the Labor Party exploiting it to the fullest.

But comrade Brown gets away with it.

Don't forget noco, that about 10% of the electors are homosexual. In the same way as Gillard is winning the women's vote, Brown will be winning the gay vote even though most probably they are not interested in "marrying."

 

[Ageo]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Well i have nothing against peoples freedoms and rights and they should choose to vote for whoever they see fit.....


But if the greens get the balance in power of the senate i will most likely shoot myself.....
(oh wait the greens by then will have taken away my firearms, so a rope should do the trick)...

 

[Calliope]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

But if the greens get the balance in power of the senate i will most likely shoot myself.....

Don't do that Ageo. I know the country will be rooted, but there will still be opportunities. There will be a mass exodus of persecuted entrepreneurs. How about setting up a boat people smuggling racket to New Zealand?

 

[prawn_86]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

(oh wait the greens by then will have taken away my firearms, so a rope should do the trick)...

Didnt the Libs do that years ago...?

 

[Ageo]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Don't do that Ageo. I know the country will be rooted, but there will still be opportunities. There will be a mass exodus of persecuted entrepreneurs. How about setting up a boat people smuggling racket to New Zealand?

lol always a thinkin man eh Calliope....

Didnt the Libs do that years ago...?

96 i know, but that was a knee jerk reaction towards the port arthur massacre.

The greens dont need an excuse, they just care about their own personal agenda and will try and ban everything they dont like.

 

[sails]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

...Im also happy to vote independent, just anything to try and change away from, or change the major parties themselves.

Prawn, I understand your frustration at the major parties, but isn't a vote for the Greens a vote for Labor?

Labor is relying on Green preferences.

 

[prawn_86]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Prawn, I understand your frustration at the major parties, but isn't a vote for the Greens a vote for Labor?

Labor is relying on Green preferences.

Not in the Senate as far as im aware. I could be wrong though, our political system is complex and ****e and thats what politicians rely on

 

[sinner]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Prawn, I understand your frustration at the major parties, but isn't a vote for the Greens a vote for Labor?

Labor is relying on Green preferences.

Extremely amused to be admonished on this forum for supposedly voting frivolously, when it is clear those who are voting "acceptably" don't even have a clue how the Westminister system functions.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/08/17/cox-the-weird-and-wonderful-world-of-senate-preferences/
http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/electoral_system.html

and the very most useful link of this election for those who can't be bothered educating themselves

https://www.belowtheline.org.au/

Will tell you who you are really voting for.

 

[sails]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Not in the Senate as far as im aware. I could be wrong though, our political system is complex and ****e and thats what politicians rely on

I was thinking house of reps when I posted and not sure about senate votes either. Anyone else care to comment?

However, labor is likely to do deals with greens in the senate to get as much of their somewhat unpopular policies passed.