Israel in the Gaza Strip

Ah Piers Akerman, oh how I have missed your desisive and candid veiwpiont.
Long May You Write

"It would be inhuman in the extreme not to feel sympathy for the children being used in this callous manner, but it would be unintelligent not to ask why those who are exploiting them are not being called to account"

wayneL said:

Whiskers,

We have no evidence of anything but a certificate course (AKA TAFE course or analogous to). As far as I'm concerned, you're sill a blow-hard. Anything less than diploma level and that bullet never went anywhere near my foot, but found it's mark.

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Geesus... you sure are hung up on my qualifications.

But it seems few are interested in examining a process that may resolve the middle east conflict or conflicts generally... they are stuck passing judjement and justifying positions.

Now let's get this straight... I have repeatedly pointed out that I raised the issue of conflict resolution as a process for discussion. I did not mention whether or not I was qualified in that area, simply thought it would be nice to discuss some way of resolving the conflict.

But as per the straw man you keep manufacturing out of you incorrect presumptions about me, you then distort and ridicule my answers to your questions playing the man instead of the issue, to build on that straw man and accuse me of being, pompus - having or exhibiting self-importance, and a blow-hard - a loudly boastful person.

You have lampooned discussion about the issue... conflict resolution, by going after me for even discussing the matter without having qualifications that are satisfactory to you.

The bottom line is YOU insisted on me explaining my qualifications, then when I do to try to appease you, you then accuse me of being pompus and a blow-hard.

What is wrong with ordinary people just discussing ideas to resolve the conflict anyway! Why must we all have some sort of qualifications to even discuss the process!

Is discussing medicial issues tabo unless we have medical qualifications, financial issues tabo unless we have a finance degree... Bludy ridiculous!

'We', who is we? Didn't I just say catagorically you presumed wrongly... that it wasn't a TAFE Course.

Well.... let me try this again. think of it like nurses, teachers most professions have to get some pratcical experience before they get their licence... and extra in house extra curriculum training provided by numerous organisations for their staff to supplement life experience that is recognised in conjunction with tertiary qualifications especially when people tend to specialise in a particular field of their profession.

Most of the material and concepts I have mentioned is in basic Organisational Behaviour and Human Resource Management courses at any university.

Since you are making such a fuss over qualifications, when there is no need to... I do have a Bachelor of Business Administration, majoring in accounting and law and including three subjects specific to Organisational Behaviour and Human Resouce Management on top of other more general managerial subjects.

And since you've already branded me a pompous, blow - hard, you may as well also know that I have also been awarded membership of the Golden Key Honour society. Golden Key membership is awarded in recognition of outstanding scholastic, achievement and excellence, by invitation only and is limited to no more than the top 15%.

No fluke either... it runs in the family... my daughter was similarly awarded.

Now, let's see if the ad nauseaum waffling has any merit. Instead of if this and if that accompanied by theory copied straight out of a textbook, tell us how you would get both sets of terrorists to the table.

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Well... since you've put me up on the pedestal as the Conflict Resolution Facilitator and if you'd studied what I've said, it's not the place of the facilitator to meddle in contriving to get people to the table.

The idea was to get people like you to change tact a bit and try to use your grey matter a bit creatively to consider options.

And for the record if the consensus is they are terrorists, I wouldn't. I'd let the specialists in law enforcement and or military capture or kill them if they put innocent lives at risk.

Whiskers said:

And for the record if the consensus is they are terrorists, I wouldn't. I'd let the specialists in law enforcement and or military capture or kill them if they put innocent lives at risk.

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Well, there would be no one at the table.

Whiskers, one point arises from your wafflings, that both parties may need to undertake a conflict resolution course (preferably, the same one you did).

Oh come on Whiskers - this is getting silly. Just make your points concisely as you can and accept that not everyone will agree with you. No-one thinks you aren't sincere in trying to help (not that any of us are going to be whisked off by helicopter to the brokering table), but it's pointless to go and on about a conflict resolution workout designed for normal life.

Do you seriously think that these types of considerations you mention are even in the back of the minds of foreign ministers/diplomats/you name it when these inflated egos meet to possibly broker a deal?

This isn't Doctor Phil. It doesn't work like that. For a start the mediators are the US, the French etc. who come with their own agendas.

IFocus said:

For a totally unbiased opinion here is Piers Akerman Howard apologist
in The Sunday Times today

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24896611-5005374,00.html

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"ISRAEL'S Operation Cast Lead is unfolding on the nightly news like a soap opera."-Piers Ackerman

Piers Ackerman is an absolute tool.

How can anyone call this crisis a "soap opera".

Innocent civilians have been killed on both sides.

Rugby League Footy Show host Paul (Fatty) Vautin got it right when he referred to Ackerman as a "fat heap of sh-t".

Macquack said:

Rugby League Footy Show host Paul (Fatty) Vautin got it right when he referred to Ackerman as a "fat heap of sh-t".

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the footy show is Crap with a capital C!
And the leader of Hamas? What does the vaughton think of him?

Julia said:

Exactly. And this is the point all your theorising is missing, Whiskers.
Mediation is a useful process when both parties have an equal desire to seek a genuine solution. So far we have no evidence of this on either side.?

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Well, firstly I like to think in terms of Conflict Resolution because it implies aiming for the process that can get the best outcome, ie Problem Solving.

Mediation geneally implies some sort of intervention, concilliation or adjudication by the mediator as opposed to more voluntary participation in problem solving.

As already pointed out by Lucas. This, Whiskers, is how it has to begin.
How would you bring both parties to mediation?
Where would you find a facilitator who would be acceptable to both sides

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No I didn't overlook it at all. You seem to have overlooked a proposition I put previously, ie to encourage some sort of grass roots intervention, community forums and consultitive committee in the running of the countries waring practices.

If you consider them all terrorists refer to last post to wayneL.

Re finding a professional facilitator of the type I'm referring too I have no doubt there are numerous in the corporate world that would be unbiased. An obvious option is for both sides to select a facilitator more familiar with their own culture and let them work together to facilitate the process.

A point people probably don't realise is that these professionals reputation is dependant on the quality of their work, ie if they have a track record of success they are respected and in demand. Whereas the conventional mediator is usually attached to some legal authority such as the UN or a country and have certain mandates from their governing authority, so their latitude is more limited and they are not nesessairly respected because of their affiliations.


Macquack, I've also repeatedly made a distinction between the average person in the street both Palastine and Israeli and the minority of more radical elements that could in reasonable behavioural terms, if not law, be considered terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

You seriously don't consider the average palastine or israeli a terrorist do you?


lucas, how do you suppose civilised society evolves? I'd suggest it's by the average person in the street getting more involved when their leaders get off the rails. By average people rebelling against and dismissing the leaders of their community who don't keep their constituencys interests foremost.

I'd suggest the process isn't so difficult. What's difficult is for people to find first base amid all the fear and propoganda being circulated. To that extent some sort of UN style peace keeping intervention could calm the environment in that respect... if the US were able to be persuaded.

nick2fish said:

"It would be inhuman in the extreme not to feel sympathy for the children being used in this callous manner, but it would be unintelligent not to ask why those who are exploiting them are not being called to account"

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Rather it seems there are many sympathisers of Hamas. They use children as shields to prolong their fight. Hang your heads in shame.

Whiskers said:

Well, firstly I like to think in terms of Conflict Resolution because...

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How nice for you - you would be the only one at the table thinking that, though. It's about power brokering. Get it? Power!

Whiskers said:

lucas, how do you suppose civilised society evolves? I'd suggest it's by the average person in the street getting more involved when their leaders get off the rails. By average people rebelling against and dismissing the leaders of their community who don't keep their constituencys interests foremost.

I'd suggest the process isn't so difficult. What's difficult is for people to find first base amid all the fear and propoganda being circulated. To that extent some sort of UN style peace keeping intervention could calm the environment in that respect... if the US were able to be persuaded.

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I'd suggest you are off your face. Sorry, it's impossible to get through to you that this is war. If the world was ever lucky enough to have you as mediator between these warring beasts, and you started discussing conflict resolution with them, you would be thrown under a proverbial bus.

Try to work out why.

OK, all the pro israel tough guys,
click on this link,
look at ALL THE IMAGES
and then search your soul, if you have one.
As you should feel good deep inside.

Only Mr Hitler would be proud of israel and the way it is showing the World the type of people that control israel are.

http://portail.islamboutique.fr/gaza2008/

It's Snake Pliskin said:

the footy show is Crap with a capital C!
And the leader of Hamas? What does the vaughton think of him?

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He was too busy to go on the show.

But back to Ackerman, he is nothing more than a Zionist propaganda peddler that attempts to convince readers that the brutal occupier is actually the victim in the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Uncle Barry said:

OK, all the pro israel tough guys,
click on this link,
look at ALL THE IMAGES
and then search your soul, if you have one.
As you should feel good deep inside.

Only Mr Hitler would be proud of israel and the way it is showing the World the type of people that control israel are.

http://portail.islamboutique.fr/gaza2008/

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Has Saddam Hussein's Baath Party funded suicide bombers in the past?

I heard a few years ago that Saddam's regime was paying $25,000 to families of people who performed suicide bombings.

Can anyone on ASF confirm or deny this?

Also I found an article from January 2005 about Hamas and Hezbollah rocket training in the Gaza Strip.

http://www.defense-update.com/2005/01/hamas-hezbollah-unholy-alliance-one-of.html

Should this trend not be eliminated in time, Israel will face a situation, which could threaten their north from Hezbollah in Lebanon, their center from Hezbolla-Fatah cells in the West Bank and Hezbollah-Hamas from the Gaza Strip. No nation wishing to survive can tolerate such a mortal threat, without reacting drastically.

GumbyLearner said:

Has Saddam Hussein's Baath Party funded suicide bombers in the past?

I heard a few years ago that Saddam's regime was paying $25,000 to families of people who performed suicide bombings.

Can anyone on ASF confirm or deny this?

Also I found an article from January 2005 about Hamas and Hezbollah rocket training in the Gaza Strip.

http://www.defense-update.com/2005/01/hamas-hezbollah-unholy-alliance-one-of.html

Should this trend not be eliminated in time, Israel will face a situation, which could threaten their north from Hezbollah in Lebanon, their center from Hezbolla-Fatah cells in the West Bank and Hezbollah-Hamas from the Gaza Strip. No nation wishing to survive can tolerate such a mortal threat, without reacting drastically.

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Gumby,
You're wasting your time trying to converse with UB. Firstly, he does not understand the concept of debate. Secondly, the facts he posts are mostly inaccurate and some are just plain made up. Thirdly, if you do engage him then he just assumes you're a hitler fanatic and or an israeli fanatic.

regards,

IFocus said:

For a totally unbiased opinion here is Piers Akerman Howard apologist
in The Sunday Times today



http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24896611-5005374,00.html

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Akerman is always firmly to the right. Never have I read or heard him expressing any level of objectivity.

GumbyLearner said:

Has Saddam Hussein's Baath Party funded suicide bombers in the past?

I heard a few years ago that Saddam's regime was paying $25,000 to families of people who performed suicide bombings.

Can anyone on ASF confirm or deny this?

Should this trend not be eliminated in time, Israel will face a situation, which could threaten their north from Hezbollah in Lebanon, their center from Hezbolla-Fatah cells in the West Bank and Hezbollah-Hamas from the Gaza Strip. No nation wishing to survive can tolerate such a mortal threat, without reacting drastically.

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Yes it was happening Gumby. Here is a link to an article back at that time:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/03/25/1017004766310.html

Whiskers said:

Well, firstly I like to think in terms of Conflict Resolution because it implies aiming for the process that can get the best outcome, ie Problem Solving.

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That nice sounding statement doesn't bring the parties to the negotiating table, as far as I can see.

Mediation geneally implies some sort of intervention, concilliation or adjudication by the mediator as opposed to more voluntary participation in problem solving.

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1. With apologies to those who are getting bored with this continuing discussion about the mediation process, that statement is the antithesis of the Dispute Resolution training I received from the Qld Justice Department.
This involved no intervention, conciliation or adjudication. Any of these would have breached the whole concept of mediation as simply being the facilitation of understanding and ultimately agreement between the parties.
I won't further irritate everyone with a description of the process.

2. We still don't have any suggestions for inspiring the warring parties to seek a mediated solution. Until that's possible you can put up all the dispute resolution models in the world, most of which will be completely inappropriate in a war situation, and you're completely wasting your time.

lucas said:

How nice for you - you would be the only one at the table thinking that, though. It's about power brokering. Get it? Power!



I'd suggest you are off your face. Sorry, it's impossible to get through to you that this is war. If the world was ever lucky enough to have you as mediator between these warring beasts, and you started discussing conflict resolution with them, you would be thrown under a proverbial bus.

Try to work out why.

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No I wouldn't on all counts for the simple reason that working from the preferred model, I wouldn't be at the table until I was invited by the party's or their nominated intermederies... as distinct from the conventional meaditator who pushes in with their often vested interests.

Power brokerng!... well that's a large part of the problem solving process... finding creative ways to get all party's more of what they want.

Further, what makes you think the average Israeli or Palastine wants war?

I'd happily walk among both communities if the small core of hard line extremists were removed.

Apart from those few unfortunate children who have been indoctrinated to be human bombs, the information I have seen says that for the most part the younger generation in particular have friends and interact happily across cultural boundaries as much as the physical circumstances allow.

Dear Mr Gordon,
Whats wrong ?

Cannot you 'cop' the images on the site I listed or do you think the images of a little girls head are made-up or even, just one less for your isreal to think about?

Cannot answer so you attack me with the normal personal 'stuff' which seems a mark of your way.......

Mr Gordon, I feel sorry for you when you cannot see pain or suffering in your fellow man kind or is it, a case of the non jews don't count in your way of things ?

Matey, your one sick creature !
ps, Whisker could never work with your problem, could he ?

Whiskers said:

Power brokerng!... well that's a large part of the problem solving process... finding creative ways to get all party's more of what they want.

Further, what makes you think the average Israeli or Palastine wants war?

I'd happily walk among both communities if the small core of hard line extremists were removed.

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Have you ever been to these crisis ridden areas?

Julia said:

that statement is the antithesis of the Dispute Resolution training I received from the Qld Justice Department.

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Julia, I am aware of how the Justice Deptarment operates. With all due respect that comment was in answer to and the specific context of the middle east conflict where the mediators are typically the US France some other country or the UN.

Also, in my earlier example of mediation the example's I mentioned included the Family (Law) process, which probably accounts for the vast majority of inter personel disputes and which usually involves some preliminary intervention by the party's legal representives to barter a deal, before the compulsory concilliation stage, trial and eventual adjudication.

2. We still don't have any suggestions for inspiring the warring parties to seek a mediated solution. Until that's possible you can put up all the dispute resolution models in the world, most of which will be completely inappropriate in a war situation, and you're completely wasting your time.

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Gee wiz Julia, so what are you suggesting... that we all just throw in the towel and sit on the side lines and whinge about it all until they exhaust or kill everyone?

Surely, encouraging people to use the less satisfactory but sometimes necessary 'Competition' approach to gang up if you like to persuade the US, (the only member to not support the previous resolution), to vote in the UN Security Council for both an enforcable cease fire and UN peace keeping force in the region is an approperiate first step solution in a war situation.