Israel in the Gaza Strip

[Whiskers]

Have you ever been to these crisis ridden areas?

No mayk, and I wouldn't go there just now. But I'd certainly like to visit in more stable times because some of my favourite food is middle eastern and I have seen how passionate and resourceful many of them are with their recipies. In fact my favourite eatery is run by lebanese, some with customary full rigalia.

I can't say I like all their practices such as the way they slaughter animals, but on the whole the average people have a lot to offer.

 

[lucas]

Dear Mr Gordon,
Whats wrong ?

Cannot you 'cop' the images on the site I listed or do you think the images of a little girls head are made-up or even, just one less for your isreal to think about?

Cannot answer so you attack me with the normal personal 'stuff' which seems a mark of your way.......

Mr Gordon, I feel sorry for you when you cannot see pain or suffering in your fellow man kind or is it, a case of the non jews don't count in your way of things ?

Matey, your one sick creature !
ps, Whisker could never work with your problem, could he ?

All this Mr Hitler, Mr Gordon speak, and the rest of your perorations are intended to strike us all dumb with your withering insight, but is nothing but smug sermonising. I haven't heard an argument yet, unless it is "I can feel the pain and since you cannot you are damned to hell".

For the last time, you won't find the answer to who is wearing the blackest hat by looking at photos of one side's dead. This is a complex issue. Granted Israel's reaction is wildly disproportionate, but even that begs questions since a truly proportionate response might only be to fire rockets indiscriminately at Palestinian civilians for 8 years.

At some stage of the proceedings, Israel's paranoia must be acknowledged, while never being used as an excuse for the overkill. Paranoid people (countries?) don't generally respond well to criticism or pain and when they go on a rampage, you'd better watch out. Mix that with religious fanaticism and you have Gaza.

What irks most of us is that Israel is constantly being presented as a modern democracy to be looked up to and respected (i.e. with more perfect manners than Islamo-fascists) but acts like a bull in a china shop when it should continue to show restraint EVEN IN THE FACE OF PROVOCATION if the consequences of retaliation are too severe.

There, I didn't send you to Hades once but I think I made much the same point you are making. It is you who is attacking with "personal stuff" and it's boring.

 

[slim pickins]

lucas,

dont worry you wont be hearing an argument from UB and similar. you see if they could present an argument, and engage in rational, logical thougth, we would not have this problem in the middle east.

it takes rationality, intelligence and some forward thinking to take advantage of opportunities presented to you. sadly, in absence of al three, we have the current sitution.

israel is pretty restrained. look at ti this way, the aboriginies had their land stolen by the whities as well, but if they lob a rocket into my house i think the response would be very unambiguous.

so there is really no exuse for what hamas is doing. the theft of land is no reason to continue a war. especially if you are losing that war.

all land is stolen, it belongs to everyone and noone. we are all just borrowing it until someone stronegr and smarter comes along. after all put it all into perspective people... its just a bit of land.... is it worth losing you life over it... after all arabs have soooo much land. israel is the size of sydney maybe smaller.

 

[onebytwo]

israel is pretty restrained. look at ti this way, the aboriginies had their land stolen by the whities as well, but if they lob a rocket into my house i think the response would be very unambiguous.

The aboriginal/"whities" situation is incomparable to that of the palestine/israel conflict. The sort of apologies, concessions, compensations and recognitions extended to the aboriginal population is nonexistent in Palestine/Israel. What we are seeing today in Israel/Palestine amounts to nothing short of apartheid.

so there is really no exuse for what hamas is doing. the theft of land is no reason to continue a war. especially if you are losing that war.

Why is lobbing of rockets into your "house" an excuse for war but theft of land isn't?

So much for rational and intelligent thinking. Please don't let your obvious israeli slant impede on your fair judgement.

 

[Uncle Barry]

The Israeli offensive has killed 887 Palestinians and wounded at least 3,600, about half of them civilians, according to Gaza hospital officials.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a6ccb.kbjOIE&refer=home

Mr Gordon and your pro isreal group must read that killing people is only a game to you, just fun............ sicko !

Don't you have a heart or soul that cares about anything except israel ?

 

[Uncle Barry]

ISRAELI soldiers and civilians working along the border fence with Syria have come under gunfire from inside Syrian territory.
No one was wounded in the rare incident that came amid heightened alert in Israel along its northern border as the military offensive against the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip entered its third week, a senior military official told AFP

A person opened fire at a group of soldiers and civilians repairing the fence along the border with Syria," the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The Israeli military filed a complaint to the United Nations force monitoring the usually calm border between Israel and Syria, he said.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24900580-23109,00.html


The above is almost funny in a deeply sad way.
Its ok for israel to kill OVER 800 people and WOUND over 3000 people,
but
dare fire one bullet at a couple of the good people from israel and they run to the UN crying about someone firing at them, where no one was even hurt.

 

[lucas]

israel is pretty restrained. look at ti this way, the aboriginies had their land stolen by the whities as well, but if they lob a rocket into my house i think the response would be very unambiguous.

Israel needs to restrain itself even further unless it wishes to sacrifice hundreds more of its citizens than would otherwise occur.

But I am not taking sides. Every rocket Hamas fires indirectly kills dozens of its own people. Every bomb Israel drops on a school - by accident or not - adds to its need to be more paranoid in the future.

The only observation I can make that damns Israel without a similar reason to damn Hamas - and it seems relevant - is that Israel must be taking advantage of the changing of the guard in the White House.

 

[rowie]

The aboriginal/"whities" situation is incomparable to that of the palestine/israel conflict. The sort of apologies, concessions, compensations and recognitions extended to the aboriginal population is nonexistent in Palestine/Israel. What we are seeing today in Israel/Palestine amounts to nothing short of apartheid.

Why is lobbing of rockets into your "house" an excuse for war but theft of land isn't?

So much for rational and intelligent thinking. Please don't let your obvious israeli slant impede on your fair judgement.

Great response to slimpickins illogical argument onebytwo!!

 

[slim pickins]

The aboriginal/"whities" situation is incomparable to that of the palestine/israel conflict. The sort of apologies, concessions, compensations and recognitions extended to the aboriginal population is nonexistent in Palestine/Israel. What we are seeing today in Israel/Palestine amounts to nothing short of apartheid.

Why is lobbing of rockets into your "house" an excuse for war but theft of land isn't?

So much for rational and intelligent thinking. Please don't let your obvious israeli slant impede on your fair judgement.

yeah... it is a little unfair to compare the two..... the aboriginals were barely counted as human, they werent in the census, they couldnt own land, they couldnt get a loan until 1963!!!!

the arabs in israel are treated like royalty is comaprison. they equal rigths, just as any israeli citizen, streeet signs are in arabic as well as hebrew, they are free to have childern, educate themselves in their own language, travel, and they dont even have to serve in the army if they dont want to. all this was denied to the aboriginals.

in fact, arabs in israel have more rights then the jews sinse they dnt ahve to serve in the army. these are the arabs that decided not to fight against israel in 1948.... they now number over 1 million people.

if you think that having your land stolen is a good excuse for starting a war....... OK..... go ahead.... let hamas continue this war. but dont come cryign on forums complainign abotu all the poeple that have died as aresult of your choice to go to war.

 

[slim pickins]

ISRAELI soldiers and civilians working along the border fence with Syria have come under gunfire from inside Syrian territory.

The above is almost funny in a deeply sad way.
Its ok for israel to kill OVER 800 people and WOUND over 3000 people,
but
dare fire one bullet at a couple of the good people from israel and they run to the UN crying about someone firing at them, where no one was even hurt.

no uncle barry. israel is complaining to the UN so the UN can prevent syria from escalating the situation. israel does not want to turn damascus into a pile of rubble, which is exactly what will happen if incidents like the one you mentioned escalate.

 

[Sean K]

yeah... it is a little unfair to compare the two..... the aboriginals were barely counted as human, they werent in the census, they couldnt own land, they couldnt get a loan until 1963!!!!

How times have changed.

the arabs in israel are treated like royalty is comaprison. they equal rigths, just as any israeli citizen, streeet signs are in arabic as well as hebrew, they are free to have childern, educate themselves in their own language, travel, and they dont even have to serve in the army if they dont want to.

Royalty? Street signs? They can have kids? Travel even? And positive descrimination not to have to serve in the IDF, along with Orthodox Jews. It's a disgrace!!!!

these are the arabs that decided not to fight against israel in 1948.... they now number over 1 million people.

Really?

if you think that having your land stolen is a good excuse for starting a war....... OK..... go ahead....

This is a joke right? You try to take anything of mine and I am at war with you. Extrapolate that out to a country having land taken off her.

let hamas continue this war. but dont come cryign on forums complainign abotu all the poeple that have died as aresult of your choice to go to war

What?

 

[slim pickins]

Royalty? Street signs? They can have kids? Travel even? And positive descrimination not to have to serve in the IDF, along with Orthodox Jews. It's a disgrace!!!!

Really?

This is a joke right? You try to take anything of mine and I am at war with you. Extrapolate that out to a country having land taken off her.

comparing to the aboriginies.. yes.. royalty. aboriginals could have kids but they would be taken from them sometimes. ever heard of an aboriginal with a passport before 1963? were they even citizens? could they vote?

arabs in israel have ot much better.... do you hear them complaining... they coudl alaways leave israel but no... they are very veyr happy there, and constitute 20% of israels populaiton.

kennas, if i take something form you and you attack me.... and i beat the living crap out of you.... again and again and again. you keep attackign me for the next 60 years, and you keep getting beaten every time. and then you realise... wow... in the last 60 years i could have done sooo much with my life. i could even have bought the thing you have taken from me 5 times over. but no.... you want that thing i have taken from you. and you try attacking me again.. and i beat you again. is that a course of action you would be happy to continue? if so..... i think you may be useful to the palestinian leadership

 

[lucas]

These right to land arguments are total furphies. They include unmaking Israel - as daft as disbanding Australia.

Without an "Israel has a right to exist" clause, all else fails. Without recognition of a Palestinian state, ditto.

Moving on instead of re-iterating the same tired old arguments, does anyone know of a comprehensive map of the region plus agreement that might one day be acceptable? I mean, assuming we get the arab nations to accept Israel's existence and assuming Israel is no longer shelled, what plan might really work?

Looking at the map it has always struck me that the miniscule Gaza Strip should be part of Israel and the Palestinians who live there have their own exodus - to a better place. Maybe an enlargement of the West Bank in exchange for an annexation of the Gaza Strip by Israel.

But I don't have a clue what I am talking about - does anyone? Not just pie in the sky stuff, please.

 

[slim pickins]

This is a joke right? You try to take anything of mine and I am at war with you. Extrapolate that out to a country having land taken off her.

ok lets extrapolate,

serbia just had 15% of its territorry taken from her. no vote, no UN resolution, no questions asked. just taken. thank you very much for your land.. have a nice day.

serbia could have deiced to go to war with nato. it has 9 million people, it could inflict massive casulaties, maybe 100,000 dead nato soldiers.

it has millions of loyal expats all over the world that could carry our terrorist attacks aganst nato interests. even the governor of illinois is a serb there is a lot a goevrnor could do... maybe even assainate the president who knows....

you knwo what serbia did... it did nothing.... you know why, because it is led by a democracy that puts its people first. doesnt lead them into wars that will destroy its people and ruin its country.

i feel for the palestinian people and i wish they had better leader. all their suffering i blame on their corrupt incompetant leaders.

 

[rowie]

yeah... it is a little unfair to compare the two..... the aboriginals were barely counted as human, they werent in the census, they couldnt own land, they couldnt get a loan until 1963!!!!

the arabs in israel are treated like royalty is comaprison. they equal rigths, just as any israeli citizen, streeet signs are in arabic as well as hebrew, they are free to have childern, educate themselves in their own language, travel, and they dont even have to serve in the army if they dont want to. all this was denied to the aboriginals.

in fact, arabs in israel have more rights then the jews sinse they dnt ahve to serve in the army. these are the arabs that decided not to fight against israel in 1948.... they now number over 1 million people.

if you think that having your land stolen is a good excuse for starting a war....... OK..... go ahead.... let hamas continue this war. but dont come cryign on forums complainign abotu all the poeple that have died as aresult of your choice to go to war.

Slim - If anyone came and took my house off me illegally, I would most certainly resist!!! I certainly wouldnt just bend over and cop it. Seriously, would you??? So you seriously do not think that people have the right to resist if something as big as your land is taken away from you?? Thats baffling!

 

[Sean K]

ok lets extrapolate,

serbia just had 15% of its territorry taken from her. no vote, no UN resolution, no questions asked. just taken. thank you very much for your land.. have a nice day.

serbia could have deiced to go to war with nato. it has 9 million people, it could inflict massive casulaties, maybe 100,000 dead nato soldiers.

it has millions of loyal expats all over the world that could carry our terrorist attacks aganst nato interests. even the governor of illinois is a serb there is a lot a goevrnor could do... maybe even assainate the president who knows....

you knwo what serbia did... it did nothing.... you know why, because it is led by a democracy that puts its people first. doesnt lead them into wars that will destroy its people and ruin its country.

i feel for the palestinian people and i wish they had better leader. all their suffering i blame on their corrupt incompetant leaders.

OK, so now you're on Serbia's team. Nice one.

100K NATO soldiers to kill. Right.

Looking forward to the 'goevrnor' of Illinois to assassinate Obama.

Really looking STUPID right now!

Please send more ammunition.

 

[slim pickins]

Slim - If anyone came and took my house off me illegally, I would most certainly resist!!! I certainly wouldnt just bend over and cop it. Seriously, would you??? So you seriously do not think that people have the right to resist if something as big as your land is taken away from you?? Thats baffling!

rowie,

ive had a lot of stuff taken form me. so have my parents. so have my grandparents. my grandparents have had such enormous wealth taken from them that it is difficult to comprehend.

none of them fought againast such theft because it would have led to thier death or jail.

and despite losing so much....we all still worked hard and still have so much. much more then the unfortunate people of gaza.

you see their efforts were concentrated on creating wealth and prosperity insted of vengance. sometimes we must accept that things are just lost. you have to make do with what you have left. once you have utilised what you have to the maximum degree then you can think about getting more. turn the gaza strip and west bank into a paradise on earth and then see if you can get any other land back.

palestinian people have the right to resist!!! but they shoud not be surprised at the israeli response.

 

[slim pickins]

OK, so now you're on Serbia's team. Nice one.

100K NATO soldiers to kill. Right.

Looking forward to the 'goevrnor' of Illinois to assassinate Obama.

Really looking STUPID right now!

Please send more ammunition.

well obviously its all hypothetical and pretty stupid yes.... almost as stupid as the palestinian goal of driving israel into the sea with their people begging for food and being shot up like fish in a barrell.

 

[lucas]

palestinian people have the right to resist!!! but they shoud not be surprised at the israeli response.

slim, I agree with parts of your argument. It doesn't absolve Israel, but there is a certain logic in arguing that way. By doing so, you are led to the conclusion that people do NOT always have the "right" to resist, and I think that is true.

Dopey analogy, but you should get my small point: if a big Grizzly Bear comes along and steals your family's picnic food, do you have the right to chuck yonnies at it until it lashes out and kills your wife and kids.

How responsible for their deaths are you? I think that is the point or similar that you are making, right?

 

[mayk]

well obviously its all hypothetical and pretty stupid yes.... almost as stupid as the palestinian goal of driving israel into the sea with their people begging for food and being shot up like fish in a barrell.

Nearly all conflicts on this earth are based on Land and resources. Religion is just used as a tool to motivate people to fight.