Israel in the Gaza Strip

[chops_a_must]

Right... so laws stopping the movement of Palestinians to other, safer areas somehow end up as being parents deliberately using their kids as human shields.

Once again Whiskers, you have proven to absorb propaganda like a sponge.

Would you just "take" the fact you aren't allowed to go to a hospital? Would you just "take" the fact your dying baby is not allowed proper medical treatment?

Come on Whiskers, have a heart. You are smarter than that...

"Palestinian Medical Relief Society (PMRS)
2 August 2008

Ramallah, 02-08-08. During the past 24 hours, five patients in Gaza have died due to being denied access to leave Gaza for medical treatment.

This brings the number of victims to 225 people since the beginning of the siege in Gaza in 2006.

Amongst the five victims, a three-month old baby died after he was prevented to travel across the Beit Hanoun crossing. 4 other people died due to the lack of freedom of movement within the Gaza strip or from being prevented to travel abroad for medical treatment."

 

[chops_a_must]

And not to mention the left and the islamists in Iran years ago.

Yes, that righty Pinochet was an awesome leader.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Hamas are angels. But if I was a Palestinian, and had a choice of either supporting a home grown group as opposed to one propped up by Israel for their purposes, it would be a no brainer...

Hamas doesn't stand for all Palestinians. They only stand for the islamic Palestinians. Christians and people of other faiths now express a desire to leave the Gaza.

With Hamas in power there is no real Palestinian state. Just an Islamist state hell bent on the destruction of Israel.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Yes, that righty Pinochet was an awesome leader.

Yes, but the alternative was communism. We have seen how that fails people as will hamas.
What is your chip man? Do you hate your life or quality of life?

 

[chops_a_must]

Hamas doesn't stand for all Palestinians. They only stand for the islamic Palestinians. Christians and people of other faiths now express a desire to leave the Gaza.

With Hamas in power there is no real Palestinian state. Just an Islamist state hell bent on the destruction of Israel.

They stand for the majority of Palestinians, at last count.

I have no doubt that the much shrunk and crushed West Bank will soon become its own state, with Gaza continuing to remain in limbo.

 

[chops_a_must]

Yes, but the alternative was communism. We have seen how that fails people as will hamas.
What is your chip man? Do you hate your life or quality of life?

Lol!

The US assassinated a democratically elected leader and replaced him with one of the biggest murderers of the 20th century. A ringing endorsement against moderate socialism.

What is yours? I don't like extremist regimes in any form. And it's quite clear that you are fairly aligned to the far right...

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Right... so laws stopping the movement of Palestinians to other, safer areas somehow end up as being parents deliberately using their kids as human shields.

Once again Whiskers, you have proven to absorb propaganda like a sponge.

Would you just "take" the fact you aren't allowed to go to a hospital? Would you just "take" the fact your dying baby is not allowed proper medical treatment?

Come on Whiskers, have a heart. You are smarter than that...

Actually Hamas is pretty good at dishing out the propaganda speedily to get sympathy. Be careful what you believe.

http://honestreporting.com/articles...w/Special_Report_The_Hamas_Propaganda_War.asp

 

[chops_a_must]

And the Israeli's censor the media, and have their own propaganda units.

My quote was from an NGO.

 

[chops_a_must]

Bahahaha... and I'm sure that site you linked me to is one of those units:

"In early 2001, those first volunteers turned to the Jerusalem Fund of Aish HaTorah to help build a website, develop materials and grow the subscriber base even further. Later that year, the project, having grown to become a major organization in its own right, was established as a US non-profit organization (501c3) with an Independent Board of Directors."

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Lol!

The US assassinated a democratically elected leader and replaced him with one of the biggest murderers of the 20th century. A ringing endorsement against moderate socialism.

What is yours? I don't like extremist regimes in any form. And it's quite clear that you are fairly aligned to the far right...

No. Centre with a touch of left and right.

 

[chops_a_must]

No. Centre with a touch of left and right.

Haha... yeah... centre as in Italy in the 30s as to Germany and Spain.

 

[Whiskers]

Originally Posted by chops_a_must
Right... so laws stopping the movement of Palestinians to other, safer areas somehow end up as being parents deliberately using their kids as human shields.

Once again Whiskers, you have proven to absorb propaganda like a sponge.

Would you just "take" the fact you aren't allowed to go to a hospital? Would you just "take" the fact your dying baby is not allowed proper medical treatment?

Come on Whiskers, have a heart. You are smarter than that...

Don't criticise me... I've got nothing to do with the decision making over there... but try puting yourself in the other persons shoes, the Israelis.

Given the long history of Hamas (and others) practice of making human bombs out of their young women and children... if you were an Israeli soldier and a heavily shrouded person supposidly with a sick child came rushing towards you, how could you be sure it isn't another human bomb. I think once (or hundreds) times bitten they are now very wary and wise or at least cautious... and who could blame them.

Re being cut off from this and that... they should have thought about that when Hamas continued firing rockets into israel even after being warned that a military response, war would result if they persisted.

They had reasonable warning of war to evacuate Hamas concentrated areas, but whether they were forced to stay by Hamas or they had faith in Hamas calling Israels bluff... and lost, so which ever way you look at it, they only have themselves to blame for putting their children in danger... but that's really contridictory since they have a cowardly policy of brainwashing children to be their human bombs anyway.

Again I feel very sorry for all palastine children and the way they are being abused and endangered by their parents and aspects of their culture.

But when their parents continue to make bad decisions about their childrens welfare they only have themselves to blame.

 

[chops_a_must]

What part of no freedom to move don't you understand?

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Haha... yeah... centre as in Italy in the 30s as to Germany and Spain.

I am interested in what this means.

 

[wayneL]

Don't criticise me... I've got nothing to do with the decision making over there... but try puting yourself in the other persons shoes, the Israelis.

Given the long history of Hamas (and others) practice of making human bombs out of their young women and children... if you were an Israeli soldier and a heavily shrouded person supposidly with a sick child came rushing towards you, how could you be sure it isn't another human bomb. I think once (or hundreds) times bitten they are now very wary and wise or at least cautious... and who could blame them.

Re being cut off from this and that... they should have thought about that when Hamas continued firing rockets into israel even after being warned that a military response, war would result if they persisted.

They had reasonable warning of war to evacuate Hamas concentrated areas, but whether they were forced to stay by Hamas or they had faith in Hamas calling Israels bluff... and lost, so which ever way you look at it, they only have themselves to blame for putting their children in danger... but that's really contridictory since they have a cowardly policy of brainwashing children to be their human bombs anyway.

Again I feel very sorry for all palastine children and the way they are being abused and endangered by their parents and aspects of their culture.

But when their parents continue to make bad decisions about their childrens welfare they only have themselves to blame.

I don't think it's reasonable to criticize others for "right fighting" and to then take such a hard line. Cognitive bias there.

 

[Whiskers]

I don't think it's reasonable to criticize others for "right fighting" and to then take such a hard line. Cognitive bias there.

I'm not right fighting the issue, rather highlighting the issues involved in conflict resolution.

The very first issue before you can even start to resolve a conflict is to recognise the other party's concerns... the highest of the high concerns in this case is the right (of Israel) to exist.

The next major issue as highlighted earlier is to participate in the conflict resolution process with a high degree of emotional maturity and the big issue there is to have enough emotional maturity to be responsible enough to leave the children out of the conflict and the resolution process... to keep them safe.

Surely buy any reasonable measure of humanity and civilised laws, those parents who allow, or worse, train children to be human bombs and use them as human shields are grossly neglegant and guilty of child endangerment, child abuse and or murder.

There is no issue of 'Right Fighting' as a bad behavioural trait in highlighting this... simply right and wrong in law and humanity as our police and social workers face all the time.

 

[chops_a_must]

Hang on. You keep banging on about this human shield bollocks, when they don't have freedom to extricate themselves from danger zones.

Yet... you implicitly find this acceptable:

"Soldiers at checkpoints consistently stop ambulances and patients. The Palestinian Red Crescent Society, has reported 112 deaths and 35 stillbirths as a result of preventing medical personnel and patients from crossing checkpoints. The World Health Organization deplores “the incidents involving lack of respect and protection for Palestin-ian ambulances and medical personnel (…) as well as the restrictions on movement imposed on them by Israel, the occupying power, in violation of international humanitarian law”."

So who cares about children when they have such a low price Whiskers?

And when you talk about knowing what each side wants, how about this?

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion

"There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon

 

[wayneL]

I'm not right fighting the issue, rather highlighting the issues involved in conflict resolution.

The very first issue before you can even start to resolve a conflict is to recognise the other party's concerns... the highest of the high concerns in this case is the right (of Israel) to exist.

The next major issue as highlighted earlier is to participate in the conflict resolution process with a high degree of emotional maturity and the big issue there is to have enough emotional maturity to be responsible enough to leave the children out of the conflict and the resolution process... to keep them safe.

Surely buy any reasonable measure of humanity and civilised laws, those parents who allow, or worse, train children to be human bombs and use them as human shields are grossly neglegant and guilty of child endangerment, child abuse and or murder.

There is no issue of 'Right Fighting' as a bad behavioural trait in highlighting this... simply right and wrong in law and humanity as our police and social workers face all the time.

But If I start to disagree with your opinion, you will start to "right fight" as you are starting to do with your post.

You raise some valid points, but in doing so, ignore far more than you raise, including the entire post 1948 history of the area. Perhaps your views are the result of propaganda? I don't know, and I suggest neither do you. We can only get information from the biased (from either viewpoint) politicized media and where ever else we can scrounge it from the net; most of it polarized.

Here's an example. During WW2, European folks regularly endangered children's lives through their resistance activities. Families sheltering Jews, assisting the resistance, resistance fighters hiding amongst the general populace etc. Many children were killed an injured because of these activities.

Perhaps in our culture, suicide bombing is repugnant, and it is when used against civilians. This we can validly criticize. But the rest is behaviour all hiumans will resort to when faced with a bullying oppressor. It's very easy to be judgemental from the safety of your Officeworks chair and Dell computer, but I know things would be different if things were different and you were a Palestinian... or a French or Dutch resistance fighter in WW2.

 

[Whiskers]

Hang on. You keep banging on about this human shield bollocks, when they don't have freedom to extricate themselves from danger zones.

Yet... you implicitly find this acceptable:

No I don't!

There's a heirachy in the issues to address conflict resolution... a couple of the highest mentioned above... none of which implies anything of the sort.

As I also mentioned above some of the palastine people whether by misfortune or collusion with Hamas only have themselves or at least their 'authorities' or Hamas to blame for their prediciment and the endangerment of their children.

That's a simple matter of behavioural and social science. You are primiraily responsible for your children. Israel didn't make them brainwash children to be human bombs and as far as I'm aware Israel doesn't reciprocate this absurdly abusive behaviour.

I'd suggest that's a large reason why palastine freedom of movement has been limited inside Israel and why Israeli soldiers are loath to get involved with sorting out human bombs from innocent civilians during war.

If you're referring to since the war started...

Re being cut off from this and that... they should have thought about that when Hamas continued firing rockets into israel even after being warned that a military response, war would result if they persisted.

They had reasonable warning of war to evacuate Hamas concentrated areas, but whether they were forced to stay by Hamas or they had faith in Hamas calling Israels bluff... and lost, so which ever way you look at it, they only have themselves to blame for putting their children in danger... but that's really contridictory since they have a cowardly policy of brainwashing children to be their human bombs anyway.

Again I feel very sorry for all palastine children and the way they are being abused and endangered by their parents and aspects of their culture.

But when their parents continue to make bad decisions about their childrens welfare they only have themselves to blame.

 

[wayneL]

No I don't!

Yes you do.