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Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

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Wysiwyg said:
You know the Iran, Iraq, Kuwait story before then? They fight among themselves and I agree the 'West' should not interfere but the U.S. (world) needs oil or the machines will stop and that supply disruption fear is the reason.
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Know how in the 50s, Iran was a secular democracy?

Iran's secular president thought that maybe BP should pay more in royalty so that his country and his people can get more of that black gold and build schools and fund healthcare and stuff like that.

So women were free, religion (Islam) was out and the country was democratic.

Guess what happened?

A secular, democratic republican Iran needs to be liberated and the weakest of the Shah's son was installed. The CIA call it operation Ajax...

Then when the Shah was overthrown, the Islamic Ayatollahs came to power... the US then got friendly with Iraq and our friend Saddam. Why? To keep Iran busy and get some payback for daring to become independent.

This is not to say that theocratic Iran is a great and wonderful place. I wouldn't want to be there. But we shouldn't be on our high horse thinking that our boss, the US, aren't some sort of imperial power. Or it is an imperial power but uses its power for good and noble aims.

And no, to secure against supply disruption is not a valid reason to take people's country and their resources. Whatever happen to the free market? Or international law?

I mean, some of us might be very rich if we could just go over to the neighbours' place and take their stuff. You know, secure our livelihood because we need to.
 
noco said:
The USA is 90% self sufficient with oil...Why would they bother with the ME oil.
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Again, they need to because:

1. You'd want to control where that oil flows to.
2. Your corporations makes lots and lots of money "helping" the Arabs extract and sell those free oil
3. Your own oil reserves might run out one day.

When you control the supply of oil, you can glut the world with oil and crush oil-producing states you don't like.
 
noco said:
The USA is 90% self sufficient with oil...Why would they bother with the ME oil.
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The cost to extract, quality and what Luutzu posted.

p.s. and environmental impact
p.p.s it certainly isn't for the sand mining prospects (bother with the ME oil?)
 
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Maybe the Muslims who escaped from a theocracy also want to get away from religious stuff noco. Even if it's Islam.

It's in us worrying about the future of our children and grandchildren that we ought to not permit any law and rhetoric that bashes and alienate one group of people for no other reason than it sounds about right.

Maybe we ought to also care about politicians enriching themselves and their friends at the expense of all poor and sick people. And maybe try not to pollute and bake the planet that we all depend on to survive.
 

I would say there are lots of Muslims who would like to escape the clutches of Islam but can't because they fear for their lives.

Bake the planet by man made Global Warming????......That is a scam and a farce as I have just proven on a post under the thread "CLIMATE CHANGE HYSTERIA."
 
luutzu said:
And no, to secure against supply disruption is not a valid reason to take people's country and their resources. Whatever happen to the free market? Or international law?
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Yes both Bush's are criminals. A pacifist President would not have allowed that to happen.
 

Dunno noco, I watch some interview where this scientist says that the chances of 3 consecutive years of ever increasing temperature, like the past 3 years we've just been through, that's a one in a million or hundred million years event. Anyway, it's rare.

For the planet to be increasingly hotter the past 15 years... I guess that's just a myth or something.

Anyway, been hot down here in Sydney past few days, and forecast for another few days.

That's not saying it's CC... but imagine living in places that are that hot and you have to work in the fields or on a construction site; or living in tin sheds with no air con and no food or no money because your crop died for the season due to freak storms and drought.

If we're worried for the kids, trust me, Climate Change has, and will, kill a million times more people than any terrorist, Islamic or otherwise, could ever dream.
 
Wysiwyg said:
Yes both Bush's are criminals. A pacifist President would not have allowed that to happen.
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It's not just the Bushes though.

I was surprised to hear that JFK was a warmonger. Dam!

He started the US's journey into South America to clean up that "backyard" of "theirs". Well, if we don't count Mexico and its former half. Then his doctrine, as released in those planning sessions, was to beat the crap out of any thing and any one who dare challenge the US's "right" to do what it believe to be in its national interests - like Cuba.

But yea, the best we could hope for, unfortunately, seems to be a leader that does the imperial stuff but also focus on seriously lifting their own plebs to a higher standard of living.

The previous few decades seems to illustrate that the leadership don't think that that's their job. That if they make the upper crush filthy rich, the rest will take care of itself. IF that fails, then just blame this or that.
 

Your mention of dictators, etc is just more grist for the "let's be careful of these people" mill. They are indeed the cuckoo of the human race and they don't profess to be otherwise... they even preach it as if a vile fifth column is something to be proud of.


Mate I'm an educated man. I wouldn't read Newscorp for any other reason than pulp fiction.
 

I'm having trouble understanding what you said there McGee.

Anyway, there's no doubting the level of education, or the love for country and peace and liberty and all that.

Just sometime, quite frequently, the aim of education, formal or otherwise, is to tell the masses that whatever it is that their country does... they do it with the noblest of intentions. As what's his ugly face, Sam Harris, will calmly tells us, we Westerners kill people, bomb the living pieces out of them... but we do it with good intention so that's cool.

The terrorists, on the other hand, they kill and murder people... but their aim is not for political or military objective. Their aim is to simply kill people for fun. That and to be closer to their Allah. And that's just crazy. He mean... victims of our violence will appreciate and understand that they were kill by the good guys.

The thing that's wrong with this Trump phenomenon is that somehow the masses are being blamed for his rise to power, when any glance at it will show something quite different.
 
luutzu said:
Just sometime, quite frequently, the aim of education, formal or otherwise, is to tell the masses that whatever it is that their country does... they do it with the noblest of intentions.
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Look, no one wants war, but do we want to see ISIS doing much worse things to people either ?

Come on luu, do you really want to see ISIS as a government because that's what will happen if nothing is done ?
 
SirRumpole said:
Look, no one wants war, but do we want to see ISIS doing much worse things to people either ?

Come on luu, do you really want to see ISIS as a government because that's what will happen if nothing is done ?
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ISIS weren't around until "we" invaded.
So we went into to find WMD, then when it's not there we went in the do nation-building; then when the new gov't of Iraq tells "us" to get out, we says no and so now are fighting ISIS.

Next we'll be fighting Climate Change and bringing clean water to Baghdad or something.


Did you know that the Soviets was fighting Al Qaeda and Islamic terrorists from Afghanistan during the 80s? That a certain Osama was trained and armed by friends of ours to take on the Ruskies?

Guess what happened to Islamic terrorism against Soviet interests when the Soviets retreated from Afghanistan. It ceased.

That's not to justify violence or terrorism. It's just a simple statement of the fact that when countries are at war with each other, acts of terrorism will happen. So are all these wars worth it? Worth the risk for us plebs?
 
luutzu said:
ISIS weren't around until "we" invaded.
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But they are around now.

Most of the work against ISIS is being done by the Iraqi army and various other groups like the Kurds with aerial support by the US and allies. That seems like the best compromise available.
 
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luutzu said:
As what's his ugly face, Sam Harris, will calmly tells us, we Westerners kill people, bomb the living pieces out of them... but we do it with good intention so that's cool.
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The good guys military do their best to beat the terrorists by focussing on the terrorist, not the civilians. The terrorists do their best to beat the good guys military by focussing on civilians, not the good guys military. The terrorist has no rules of war. Kill everything that doesn't succumb to their will.

ISIS weren't around until "we" invaded.
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Come on. They are killing the people of Iraq and Syria as well. This is not only about the U.S.
 

The USA has enough oil reserves for 1000 years.
 
SirRumpole said:
But they are around now.

Most of the work against ISIS is being done by the Iraqi army and various other groups like the Kurds with aerial support by the US and allies. That seems like the best compromise available.
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Anyone that everyone is fighting in the ME at the moment is ISIS or its affiliate.

US and Western allies are fighting Assads, Assads is fighting "ISIS" and other rebels. etc. etc.

We're not there to try and fix things or right previous wrongs. We're there because doing whatever it is we're doing is, somehow, suppose to serve "our" national interests. And it has nothing to do with fighting ISIS or prevent terrorism.

In fact, our planners and security agencies know and some had advised against these kind of wars. Saying that it will lead to more terrorism at home and does not serve to protect or advance our security or interests.

But yea...
 
noco said:
The USA has enough oil reserves for 1000 years.
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The world's oil reserves will run out in about 200 years. It'll be another 100 on oil at easier to get places; the remaining 100-year equivalent are in hard to get, small pockets and very uneconomical places. Ones where melting ice and sky high oil prices will make it easier to get to.

So no, the US does not have oil to last a thousand years.
 

That's what they all reckon.

Obama's administration literally state that everyone within the kill zone of a drone strike are considered terrorist and enemy combatant unless they or their family or relative can prove to the US military otherwise.

I'm not making that up. I've heard from a few sources.

So when Arabs attend their a wedding, or a hospital, or a school or just the market place and get blown up. Ooppsy? Prove that they're not a terrorist?

Yes, ISIS and other terrorists are killing everybody who do not obey or follow. It just show that this is not an Islamic thing where all Muslims are brothers or all Muslims hate the West.
 
luutzu said:
And it has nothing to do with fighting ISIS or prevent terrorism.
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Really ? What has it got to do with ?

ISIS is militant Islam, anti West, anti democracy, pro terrorism.

If they get powerful enough they will recruit people in western countries for terrorism, this is already happening so imagine what will happen if they get hold of more resources.

I can't really see how people can be blind to the problem of militant Islam, and think that if only we leave them alone they will leave us alone. That is just not a realistic appraisal of the situation.
 

The Soviets left Afghanistan alone after years of trying to take it over.

When they left, Islamic terrorism against their interests stops.

When the Red Coats and the colonials were fighting... what were the yanks doing to the British? What happened afterwards when they normalise relations?

We can go through every country and ever war and see these kind of examples.

As Sun Tzu says, to move soldiers (and unite the people) against an enemy, you must rouse the people to anger.

Why would sane and normal people like you and I permit or shrug or just ignore endless wars against any group of people if we do not believe them to be barbaric savages out there to harm us and the world?

As George Orwell had warned us, don't think that Animal Farm is just about propaganda and state deceptions perpetrated by the Soviets and other authoritarian states... it's also done in open and democratic societies - just that it's harder to see and know it's being done because no one who peacefully oppose it gets to disappear. They just don't get rewarded with high pay and such common thing as rewards for honesty and proper scholarships.
 
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