Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

[Value Collector]

Can anyone tell me why people pray?.....What do they pray for and are their prayers ever answered?
.

Religions encourage regular prayer and other rituals because it builds the illusion of truth through cognitive ease.

 

[luutzu]

I don't think people are saying that one religion is better than another, but that all religion has parts that are incompatible with today's democratic secular society.

You seem to be assuming that people are automatically Christian if they are not Muslim. Most people these days are agnostic or atheist, or couldn't be bothered defining themselves as either, so quoting slabs of the Bible really falls on deaf ears, we don't believe it either.

But people are saying that.

That Islam is evil and brainwash its followers to kill etc. etc. Hence, we must take the war to them; hence we must stop Muslims from entering "our Christian (and Jewish?)" society blah blah.

 

[CanOz]

I don't think people are saying that one religion is better than another, but that all religion has parts that are incompatible with today's democratic secular society.

You seem to be assuming that people are automatically Christian if they are not Muslim. Most people these days are agnostic or atheist, or couldn't be bothered defining themselves as either, so quoting slabs of the Bible really falls on deaf ears, we don't believe it either.

hmmm, a little less than most actually, 33% roughly...which is unfortunate...ptherwise the non religious could rise up and exterminate the religious of the world....of course that wouldn't work because we'd be left with just the left and the right to fight things out...

Irreligion, which may include deism, agnosticism, ignosticism, antireligion, atheism, skepticism, ietsism, spiritual but not religious, freethought, antitheism, apatheism, non-belief, pandeism, secular humanism, non-religious theism, pantheism and panentheism, varies in the different countries around the world. In a 2014 poll 33% of the world population were estimated to be atheist or not religious, splitting into 11% atheists and 22% not religious.[2]

 

[Ves]

I read the whole lot from start to finish and I suggest you do the same.

Clearly you haven't.

How can anyone take it out of context...It is there in black and white dozens of times.

You've probably not understood it because you couldn't be bothered reading it (which hardly surprises me in this day and age).

Verse 2-190 directly before it.

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors."

That's sounds like a call to defend not to aggression.

The whole of Verse 2-191

"And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

Verse 2-192

"And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Verse 2-193

"Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors."


It's clearly about war. And more specifically about being invaded.

 

[SirRumpole]

"And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

Like the beheading of a Muslim historian in Palmyra ?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/18/isis-beheads-archaeologist-syria

 

[bellenuit]

Clearly you haven't.


You've probably not understood it because you couldn't be bothered reading it (which hardly surprises me in this day and age).

Verse 2-190 directly before it.

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors."

That's sounds like a call to defend not to aggression.

The whole of Verse 2-191

"And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

Verse 2-192

"And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Verse 2-193

"Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors."


It's clearly about war. And more specifically about being invaded.

Yes, Allah is forgiving and merciful to those who submit to the will of Allah. So when Muslims talk about Allah forbidding the killing of innocent people, they never define what innocent means and most Westerners assume it means exactly what we mean it to be. However, innocent can be construed from the Koran/Hadith to exclude apostates, homosexuals and broadly anyone considered infidels. The moderate muslims assume innocents include everyone not actively trying to suppress Islam, and these are the ones that make claims that ISIS are therefore not Muslim. But vast swathes of Muslims, particularly Arab muslims, do not include apostates and homosexuals in particular under those labelled innocent, so have no qualms about putting them to death. That is why homosexuality and apostasy is a crime punishable by death in so many ME countries.

Do you consider homosexuals and apostates innocent and if you do, can you explain why so many ME countries legalise their killing?

 

[SirRumpole]

But people are saying that.

That Islam is evil and brainwash its followers to kill etc. etc. Hence, we must take the war to them; hence we must stop Muslims from entering "our Christian (and Jewish?)" society blah blah.

That's because some Muslims are actually carrying out the nasty bits of their doctrine, whereas the Christian religion is divided into old and New Testaments and the people who follow the New Testament are generally ignoring the nasty bits in the Old Testament.

Unfortunately, the whole Koran is the word of the prophet and therefore must be obeyed. It's harder to cherry pick.

 

[CanOz]

That's because some Muslims are actually carrying out the nasty bits of their doctrine, whereas the Christian religion is divided into old and New Testaments and the people who follow the New Testament are generally ignoring the nasty bits in the Old Testament.

Unfortunately, the whole Koran is the word of the prophet and therefore must be obeyed. It's harder to cherry pick.

I heard recently that there were calls to update the Koran, a sort of new testament, to bring it in line with contemporary moderate thinking...

 

[SirRumpole]

I heard recently that there were calls to update the Koran, a sort of new testament, to bring it in line with contemporary moderate thinking...

That would be good, but who would do it ? There is no Muslim Pope to co ordinate that sort of thing, and each Muslim country seems to have it's own brand of clerics so the chances of getting agreement would seem to be slim.

 

[luutzu]

That's because some Muslims are actually carrying out the nasty bits of their doctrine, whereas the Christian religion is divided into old and New Testaments and the people who follow the New Testament are generally ignoring the nasty bits in the Old Testament.

Unfortunately, the whole Koran is the word of the prophet and therefore must be obeyed. It's harder to cherry pick.

They're carrying it out because, for some reason, they feel they're at war with the West.

Sure, there are Muslims who are not at war and are just crazy... but are there no terrorist and murderers doing what they think the Bible tells them to do?

There are cases of terrorists blowing up abortion clinics; murdering doctors who perform abortion - and claim they did it for their God in the Bible.

Should we then say that Christianity is evil?

Heck, the "greatest" democracy in the world actually have lawmakers pushing, and in many States succeeding, the teaching of the Bible and its Genesis as an alternative view on human evolution; There are laws banning abortion, making it almost impossible to operate a clinic (not near schools) - leading to the unsafe and death of many women...

None of these is to show that Christians are all nuts. But just the same, we cannot then say that Muslims are all nuts because some Muslims are nuts.

And it's not PC and all that nonsense. It's the reality.

I live near Muslims - ground zero here right? There are beer shops where Muslim frequent; there are Churches and Catholic schools; there are pork and other non-Halal food being sold around here.

If Islam and Muslims are as crazy and "Sharia" as we're to believe, they'd be out there burning or shutting down all these unholy stuff. That and carrying out terrorism on a daily basis too.

---

Anyway, we should seriously think long and hard about this. Innocent lives are at stake.

Australia is lieutenant to the biggest, baddest, most trigger happy powers in the history of the world. We're part of a coalition with enough nukes to blow the world a few times over; we have resources to end freaking world poverty...

and yet believe we are in danger of being taken over by "a bunch of idiots in a few pick-ups".

How do we hear this and not fall over laughing to death?


We get upset, and rightly so, when innocents are killed (in Western countries)... yet, we just shrugged when just as many or more innocent Arabs and Muslims are slaughtered almost every single day all over the ME.

Is it the mark of a civilised society when it define and accept "worthy" and "unworthy" victims?

 

[noco]

I heard recently that there were calls to update the Koran, a sort of new testament, to bring it in line with contemporary moderate thinking...

I can't see that happening after 1400 years.

 

[SirRumpole]

We get upset, and rightly so, when innocents are killed (in Western countries)... yet, we just shrugged when just as many or more innocent Arabs and Muslims are slaughtered almost every single day all over the ME.

I'll bet that there are more Muslims being killed by Muslims than there are innocent Muslims being killed by drones.

Look at the Iran-Iraq war, more than a million lives lost. Muslim v Muslim.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/23/iran-iraq-war-anniversary

 

[luutzu]

That would be good, but who would do it ? There is no Muslim Pope to co ordinate that sort of thing, and each Muslim country seems to have it's own brand of clerics so the chances of getting agreement would seem to be slim.

There were calls for democracy, secularism all over the Middle East decades ago - there are still calls for it today as we speak.

Guess whose warlords didn't think it's such a good idea? Guess who thought it stands in the way of Imperial Grand Strategy and decided to support dictators and religious nuts instead?

 

[luutzu]

I'll bet that there are more Muslims being killed by Muslims than there are innocent Muslims being killed by drones.

Look at the Iran-Iraq war, more than a million lives lost. Muslim v Muslim.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/23/iran-iraq-war-anniversary

Really?

The West didn't kind of invade Iraq and wreck the place?

 

[SirRumpole]

Really?

The West didn't kind of invade Iraq and wreck the place?

Maybe because of this...

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/IraqCoverage/story?id=2761722&page=1

 

[luutzu]

I'll bet that there are more Muslims being killed by Muslims than there are innocent Muslims being killed by drones.

Look at the Iran-Iraq war, more than a million lives lost. Muslim v Muslim.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/23/iran-iraq-war-anniversary

Oh OK, the Iraq/Iran conflict.

Guess who was behind Saddam during that one? Guess who supplies him with training, weapons and WMD?

Why the US? Because the evil Iranian clerics thought to overthrow the US-backed Shah of Iran. Why was the Shah in power? Some crazy democratically elected Iranian president thought it's only fair Iran get more oil revenues from its oil.

Saddam was only pushed back when he invaded Kuwait... and he did it thinking the US gave him permission to. Why did he think that? A US envoy met with him and he read that the US would not oppose such invasion.

 

[luutzu]

Maybe because of this...

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/IraqCoverage/story?id=2761722&page=1

That list was crimes before the year 2000. Why wait until 2003?

In one of his Q&A, Chomsky was saying, and you can check to verify, that when Saddam was captured, the "Iraqi" court only charge him with crimes where the US have no hands in - after Kuwait? Can't remember. But he was not charge with crimes committed all his entire reign.

 

[DB008]

You have large numbers of people living in ****-hole deserts, where the temperature is higher than their IQ's and believe in this man-made fantasy, in-breeding doesn't help either (ie, cousins -> cousins at a minimum)...

 

[bellenuit]

I heard recently that there were calls to update the Koran, a sort of new testament, to bring it in line with contemporary moderate thinking...

Islam cannot be modernised say greatest Arabic poet.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...-modernised-says-worlds-greatest-arabic-poet/

Being raised a Muslim himself and having one of the greatest understandings of the language of the Quran, Adonis said: “You can not reform a religion. If they are reformed, [the original meaning] is separated from it. Therefore, modern Muslims and a modern Islam is already impossible. If there is no separation between religion and state, there will be no democracy especially without equality for women. Then we will keep a theocratic system. So it will end.”

Laying down a heavy critique of the Islamic world, he added: “Arabs have no more creative force. Islam does not contribute to intellectual life, it suggests no discussion. It is no longer thought. It produces no thinking, no art, no science, no vision that could change the world. This repetition is the sign of its end. The Arabs will continue to exist, but they will not make the world better.”

A Saudi Morals Enforcer Called for a More Liberal Islam. Then the Death Threats Began.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/11/w...ia-islam-wahhabism-religious-police.html?_r=0

This article is also worth reading for a better understanding of Wahhabism

 

[DB008]

Islam cannot be modernised say greatest Arabic poet.

Islam needs to have a reformation, like the Catholic Church did. This will never happen. Islam will continue to be backward, forever.