Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

[basilio]

Where is this talk taking us ?
First point is that Sdajii, Qfrog et al are well and truly on the very big bandwagon of the next Holy War.
There are certainly some/many groups looking to establish the base line for a war that would make The Crusades look like a picnic.
Interestingly at least a couple of these sites have an overwhelmingly religious element.

Second point. What politicians like Donald Trump say has an effect on people.

Flipping the Switch
Donald Trump Helped Turn a Christian Extremist Into an Alleged Domestic Terrorist

Michael Hari’s story shows how our increasingly divisive, conspiracy-laden culture is pushing troubled people toward extremism and violence.
https://theintercept.com/2019/03/30/domestic-terrorism-donald-trump/
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http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/stop-islam.html
https://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=57016
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-tommy-robinson-national-action-a8235556.html

 

[bellenuit]

Well that is a chilling story Sdajii. Certainly won't be sleeping at night with the horror of Islamic fanatics taking over the world. I hope you don't suffer from the nightmares you are so busy creating.

I wonder how your story would look if we changed "Islam" to "The Commies" "Westbro Baptist Church" "The Chinese " or in fact any other outgroup.

It wouldn't work Bas. You need to read up on Islam.

 

[Sdajii]

Well that is a chilling story Sdajii. Certainly won't be sleeping at night with the horror of Islamic fanatics taking over the world. I hope you don't suffer from the nightmares you are so busy creating.

I wonder how your story would look if we changed "Islam" to "The Commies" "Westbro Baptist Church" "The Chinese " or in fact any other outgroup.

The difference here is that it is a true story, not just paranoia or exaggeration. Actually, the Chinese also pose a huge threat to the world and also have a global takeover strategy, though that side of things will come to a crunch later. China will be an interesting player in the upcoming war. They will not (already do not) tolerate Islam. Islam while on its march through the part of the world I'm currently in (bouncing around Asia) was able to take over some regions easily while in others it hasn't got anywhere. China is an example. China will presumably be happy to sit back and let Islam and the west have their war, and then fill the power vacuum. Russia will be having similar thoughts.

You are speaking from a very Australian perspective, that naive frame of mind which believes war is fictional or a thing of the past or a thing of far away lands which can't affect Australia and so it basically doesn't exist. I grew up among people whose family and friends were tortured to death by Islam, so I was somewhat aware of the situation, but it didn't really hit me until I started travelling. For the last 5 years I haven't spent much time in Australia, and I've seen and learned a lot. Last week I was in a region which had been part of several different countries and kingdoms over the last few hundred years. Recently I was in another area near the border of Cambodia where the local people were telling me about the border skirmishes (just in the last few years, their own accounts, not just what they'd learned in school) with the bombs and gunfire keeping them awake at night. That's stuff you lose sleep over. The area is still volatile and it flares up from time to time, it hasn't happened while I've been there, but it could at any moment. I didn't lose sleep there either (though bombs and gunfire would certainly have kept me up). This sort of situation is common over a lot of the world and a large percentage of the population is aware of what routinely happens, but Australians have this Disney view of the world, which makes them think anyone aware of reality is somehow paranoid. Australia is a young country with close enough to zero history of war on its own territory. It is extremely unique in this way, and this is why it has perhaps the most naive population in the world when it comes to this topic.

If you think knowledge of the reality of the world should keep someone awake, you are one very, very sheltered individual. I have met plenty of people who have lived through their country being in war, not knowing if they would survive the next day, not knowing if their country would still exist next month (and in some cases their country becoming a different country). My next country will be Vietnam, where of course there was a nasty and complicated war which many of the people lived through (just one in an ongoing string of wars over more than a thousand years). Anyone much older than myself had friends and family killed in the war, when I'm in town I walk down the streets (which are now just regular city streets) where tanks rolled through and smashed through the gates of the government buildings, etc etc. Even WWII is still in living memory, I've sat and had drinks in Hiroshima with people who were in Hiroshima and remember when the bomb came, when a lot of the world got involved and the outcome could potentially have gone either way.

You are like many Australians. Willfully naive, and perfect examples of the type of character allowing the problems to occur; if we do not even acknowledge the existence of a problem, we are sure not to do anything to prevent or oppose it. Islam is far worse than Nazism (Nazism is mostly hated for the goal of exterminating the Jews, and funnily enough, that is one of Islam's expressly stated goals, even specifically naming them as an enemy of Islam which needs to be exterminated), it has become far, far larger and is far, far more powerful than Hitler's Nazism ever did. With Nazism, people woke up and did something at a far earlier stage, which means if this one comes down to a war, which it almost certainly will and if people refuse to acknowledge the issue and deal with it peacefully it certainly will, it's going to be a far bigger and bloodier war than WWII. It is so obvious it's surreal, but for many people, that will be impossible to see until... I can't even say until the first shots have been fired because they're being fired every day... so, people like you won't be able to see it until it gets to an official declaration of war.

 

[Sdajii]

Where is this talk taking us ?
First point is that Sdajii, Qfrog et al are well and truly on the very big bandwagon of the next Holy War.
There are certainly some/many groups looking to establish the base line for a war that would make The Crusades look like a picnic.
Interestingly at least a couple of these sites have an overwhelmingly religious element.

Second point. What politicians like Donald Trump say has an effect on people.

It's ridiculous that you would say I am on a bandwagon for a war. The war has been going on for 1,400 years. Literally the entire time, from the very beginning, from the founder himself, people have been being killed, genocide committed, and terrorism used to overthrow governments or outright exterminate the opposition. It is literally expanding at a growing rate and will soon take the whole world. You can look at it purely mathematically if you want, just look at the growth rate as a mathematical equation. Also look at the number of innocent people killed which is also growing at a mathematically calculable rate. Even in regions/nations where the process is complete, the violence remains high, it does not go down. When people are commanded to kill or be killed, many of them kill.

Incidentally, I am atheist.

I do not want war, I do not want violence. If we refuse to acknolwedge that something which universally produces violence and killing of innocent people everywhere it grows does that, it means we allow more violence and killing. Look at the reality of the regions in which the process has been complete for hundreds of years, or over a thousand. Look at the actual reality, not just the warped western media narrative. Read the Koran. Look at what is actually happening in the world. Look at the reality of the situation in any example of any stage of Islamic takeover. There is only one non violent stage in that process (which the Koran instructs people to lie during) and that's the one the mainstream media focuses on.

We western narrative has managed to convince people that the reality, despite being the actual, clearly observable reality, is a fictional story made up by fear mongers. Don't listen to propaganda from either side, just look at the actual reality of the situation. Don't focus on being in Australia and thinking you're so distanced from the rest of the world that it doesn't affect you and you're safe, look at what is happening and spreading. Look at what actually, literally, tangibly is the fastest growing demographic in the world and what it does everywhere it goes.

If there actually is a problem, what does it take to convince someone like you that there is a problem?

 

[bellenuit]

Sdajii. I‘m certainly not as pessimistic as you regarding the spread of Islam. I believe the ability of Islam to spread through invasion is now very limited as the contiguous Islamic states are surrounded by powerful neighbours to the West and East.

I think the main danger to the West is more subtle. Immigration, high birth rates and constant demands for us to accomodate to their ways rather than vice versa. In spite of most Muslims being peaceful and good citizens, there is little integration, particularly in Europe. They are still under the influence of what is preached in their local mosques and the text of the Quran can easily be used to promote intolerance of their non–muslim neighbours and demands for even greater acceptance of their ways and laws, which one sees as their proportion of the population increases. Demands for Sharia are commonplace, though initially only for the nice things to be implemented.

It is telling that when the refugee crisis was at its peak in Europe, Saudia Arabia‘s offer of assistance to Europe was to build mosques throughout Europe (I need to verify this but it was certainly mentioned in a few newspapers at the time).

I think education will be the best weapon in fighting political Islam, particularly exposing the myths of their belief system. But that means they will need an environment where to be an ex–muslim is safe. Unfortunately rather than support those who have abandoned Islam for secularism, the regressive left in the West are continuing to side with the intolerant few who target ex–muslims and try to shut them down when they speak out.

 

[Sdajii]

Sdajii. I‘m certainly not as pessimistic as you regarding the spread of Islam. I believe the ability of Islam to spread through invasion is now very limited as the contiguous Islamic states are surrounded by powerful neighbours to the West and East.

I think the main danger to the West is more subtle. Immigration, high birth rates and constant demands for us to accomodate to their ways rather than vice versa. In spite of most Muslims being peaceful and good citizens, there is little integration, particularly in Europe. They are still under the influence of what is preached in their local mosques.

It is telling that when the refugee crisis was at its peak in Europe, Saudia Arabia‘s offer of assistance to Europe was to build mosques throughout Europe (I need to verify this but it was cert

I think education will be the best weapon in fighting political Islam, particularly exposing the myths of their belief system. But that means they will need an environment where to be an ex–muslim is safe. Unfortunately rather than support those who have abandoned Islam for secularism, the regressive right in the West are continuing to side with the intolerant few who target ex–muslims and try to shut them down when they speak out.

I entirely agree with pretty much everything you've said here. Military style invasion is something they are unlikely to use again, at least against western countries, because it is something which would cause the world to wake up, and at this point, a woken, aware world would be disastrous for them. They will do it through immigration, conversion and high fertility (while the mainstream narrative is to encourage people not to have children because of global overpopulation).

I 200% agree, the best strategy (at least of the non violent options) is education. Without education it will end up in unprecedented violence making anything the world has previously seen look like a picnic.

Absolutely positively, something absolutely critically needed is a safe exit for current Muslims. Absolutely, most Muslims are good people. I would love to know how many Muslims would leave if it was safe to do so, but literally most of the world's Muslims would be killed for even expressing an interest in the possibility of leaving (that alone should alarm everyone and be a call to action, and no, I don't mean violent action). Non Muslims, especially those on the right, absolutely need to welcome and protect people who choose to leave. No one should be racist, everyone should be treated as an individual. Unfortunately there are great obstacles to achieving this, which come from the left (they support Islam, which is determined to kill anyone who wants to leave), right (which is the only side currently in a position to potentially help), and Islam (actively seeking to kill anyone wanting to leave, a blatant terrorist tactic endorsed by almost all Islamic governments and the majority of the world's Muslims, although no doubt many of them would secretly not choose to enforce this if they weren't fearful for their own safety, because literally most of them would be killed if they openly said they didn't support it!). Western centrists (well, I'm left, but 'the left', the majority of people who don't identify as right, are so far left they would see me as alt right) like myself are irrelevant because we are so rare.

I grew up in a community of ex Muslims, all of whom had friends and/or family killed, and a few physically tortured into coming back to Islam (and those individuals, all I was aware of, then remained Muslim indefinitely). I am well familiar of the difficulties they face and the urgent need for the whole human race to force all world governments and all people to allow people the freedom to choose not to belong to any religion they do not wish to be part of. Most western people don't realise that literally most Muslims in the world will literally be killed if they express a desire to leave. Officially, the world recognises countries as having 'religious freedom' even if Muslims will literally be executed by the government if they choose to leave their religion!

 

[basilio]

One point I think that has to be made clear and reinforced in Australia is the role of Australian law and customs. (Unless of course Australian law and customs becomes making it illegal to be a Muslim..)

Always interesting to look at history and how we can be inflamed against an "enemy" if there is enough vitriol thrown around. This was the sort of thing I was referring when I suggested one could replace "Islam" with "The Commies" " The Chinese" " Papists" in Sajaii relentless screed on the unstoppable rise of Islam. (Can anyone else remember when the threat of being taken over by Catholics was a serious concern? That Catholics would out breed everyone else, take their orders from the Pope and destroy civilization as we know know it ? )

The Red Flag riots unfolded in Brisbane 100 years ago. Experts see similar 'mobilised hatred' today
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-04/red-flag-riots-and-islamaphobia-australia/10954220

 

[basilio]

One point I think that has to be made clear and reinforced in Australia is the role of Australian law and customs. (Unless of course Australian law and customs becomes making it illegal to be a Muslim..)

To make what I am saying clear.
In Australia everyone has a right to follow the religion of their choice - OR NOT.
Australia doesn't welcome or accept situations where people do not have the freedom to simply not follow the religion they have been brought up in. That is what Freedom of Religion means here.

I

 

[SirRumpole]

To make what I am saying clear.
In Australia everyone has a right to follow the religion of their choice - OR NOT.
Australia doesn't welcome or accept situations where people do not have the freedom to simply not follow the religion they have been brought up in. That is what Freedom of Religion means here.

I

In theory yes, but some people believe religious law overrides country law, and that's where the problem arises.

Ever heard of honour killings ?

Yes the perps go to gaol if they are caught, but they regard it as a badge of honour.

 

[qldfrog]

About education as the way to solve islam expansion, sure but not when education is done in Koranic school;
when you look at literacy figures for countries, always be aware on how many have been thru Koranic schools and do not know much more than basic numeracy and reciting the holy book..not much place for thinking
but who needs thinking under Islam: all the answers are in the book;
This caused Islam downfall when the industrial revolution came around, but now, you can just buy it on ebay, and the west masses are as ignorant as indoctrinated muslims
I do not believe education will help unless you ensure than muslims arelimited percentage of the population/quotas and need to integrate wo fear, then can make their own mind and adopt the belief they want.
But usually the whole neighbourhood turns into an enforced muslim enclave with de facto sharia laws
see Europe

 

[explod]

We’re Sorry Canada
March 31 at 8:17 AM ·

 

[SirRumpole]

Nuns usually become nuns of their own free will, they can leave any time.

If you happen to be born a Muslim woman you are stuck with it, unless you can sneak onto a flight to a free country away from your relatives.

 

[lindsayf]

To make what I am saying clear.
In Australia everyone has a right to follow the religion of their choice - OR NOT.
Australia doesn't welcome or accept situations where people do not have the freedom to simply not follow the religion they have been brought up in. That is what Freedom of Religion means here.

I

We are not talking about rights or about what you think Australia might or should welcome or accept.
We are talking about reality on the ground. What do you think happens to Australian apostates?
Do you think that because we are in Australia that the basic tenets of Islam become impotent?
Bas you clearly have a good critical mind..........


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06...secret-ex-muslim-network-in-australia/9811340

 

[bellenuit]

We’re Sorry Canada
March 31 at 8:17 AM ·

It's sort of like you completely missed the point. There are comparatively few in the West that are demanding that Muslim woman not wear the hijab. There are objections to the Niqab and Burka, particularly in professions that require interaction with clients, patients, pupils etc.

The real issue is those forced to wear such headgear without their consent. We have seen in Muslim countries like Iran that many women do not want to wear the Hijab and Chador and are oppressed (the real use of this word rather than what you are claiming happens in the West). They are imprisoned and tortured and in some countries would be killed for not doing so. We have images of Iran and Afghanistan pre- and post-Islamic takeover and they differences between what women wore then (when they were free to chose) and what they are forced to wear now is dramatic. We have also seen the scenes of women throwing away their face coverings when liberated from ISIS. There is also plenty of anecdotal evidence that many Muslim women in the West are not free to chose their clothing and are forced to comply with Islamic head-dress due to pressure by their own family or community.

The real shame is that the left in the West and the Feminist Movement in particular have completely ignored this oppression. They only see Muslim women as victims when it is Western law or customs that restrain what they can wear. But they offer zero support for those Muslim women that are really oppressed.

 

[bellenuit]

Pre- and post-revolution Iran

Pre- and Post Taliban Afghanistan

That is oppression. When will the Left complain about that?

 

[MARKETWINNER]

Still I am really confused and very sad about things happened in this word throughout the history. When one conflict or war ends, another has emerged. This is similar to economy or stock market. There is some sort of cycle. My sincere gratitude goes to all type of peace loving people in this world from Australia, Asia, Africa, Europe to North and South America. When will end all types of wars and conflicts and bring peace and then invest more on human development and the sustainable development of resource and environment for a harmonious society. Will there be once and for all solution?

http://www.wisdomquotes4u.com/dont-judge-people-by-their-looks/

Don’t judge people by their looks

https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/The-Main-Reasons-For-War
The 8 Main Reasons for War

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/asias-5-most-lethal-wars-all-time-13468
Asia's 5 Most Lethal Wars of All Time

https://www.totallytimelines.com/wars-fought-in-east-asia-598-to-1975/
Wars Fought in East Asia 598 to 1975

https://testbook.com/blog/important-wars-battles-in-indian-history-pdf/’

https://www.totallytimelines.com/wars-fought-in-europe-499-bce-to-present-day/
Wars Fought in Europe 499 BCE to Present Day

http://neweasterneurope.eu/2019/03/24/bulgarias-denial-of-its-ottoman-past-and-turkish-identity/
Bulgaria’s denial of its Ottoman past and Turkish identity

https://study.com/academy/lesson/the-mongol-invasion-of-russia-in-the-13th-century.html
The Mongol Invasion of Russia in the 13th Century

https://www.centuryassociation.org/...ongol-invasion-and-the-destruction-of-baghdad
1258-The Mongol Invasion and the Destruction of Baghdad

 

[Sdajii]

We’re Sorry Canada
March 31 at 8:17 AM ·

Are you trying to tell me that Nuns are not oppressed women? Pressured into a life of celibacy and lack of self direction. If that's your standard, goodness help us.
I was in India recently. Let's just say if I was a woman, I sure as @*!# wouldn't want to have been born there!
Muslims... well, if they complain about their lot in life they're lucky if they only get beaten. Their husbands literally follow a doctrine which says they can rape and bash them at their own discretion and no other person under any circumstances may criticise when and how a man rapes or beats his wife.
Sabian: You know someone is desperate for examples when they use something most people wouldn't even recognise.
Orthodox Judaism: Something becoming increasingly obscure, because despite being inherently evil itself, it didn't have a few of the extremely dangerous clauses Islam does (there isn't the death penalty for questioning a word of the doctrine, people can leave without being killed, and a few other points). Read the old testament of the bible. That's what orthodox Judaism is. It is extremely oppressive of women. Sex slavery, rape, etc, all good!

If anything, this this screams "If any organisation, group, doctrine or any other entity enforces a dress code like this it is a clear sign that women are being oppressed"

Yes, you're right.

Are people really this stupid? Well, sadly the answer is yes, but futile as the effort may be, I seek to change it.

I haven't yet found a way to wake people up, perhaps I will never find it, but likely I will never stop trying.

Take a moment to attempt to use your brain for genuine rational thought. In all of your own examples this clothing is used to subjugate women.

 

[explod]

Of course Sdaji, you get it, few do.

Chaining down and of course the whole purpose of religion in the first place, take away individual thinking so they can be controlled.

 

[bellenuit]

Are you trying to tell me that Nuns are not oppressed women?

I had 4 aunts who were nuns and 2 of them spent their lives in very hot climates, one in Thailand and one in China (until she was expelled). When they were initially sent to the missions as they were then called, they basically had to wear the same habits as back home in their native cold and damp Ireland. They mentioned how insufferable it was and it was only when Vatican II (I think) relaxed a lot of the nonsense in the Catholic Church that they were able to adopt clothing suitable to the local climate. However, the habits they wore were imposed on them by the order and not something they voluntarily had liked. However, they wore them because they had taken vows of obedience, but since they were effectively brainwashed into thinking they were doing God's will, one could easily see this as oppression, even if voluntarily entered in to.

 

[Sdajii]

I had 4 aunts who were nuns and 2 of them spent their lives in very hot climates, one in Thailand and one in China (until she was expelled). When they were initially sent to the missions as they were then called, they basically had to wear the same habits as back home in their native cold and damp Ireland. They mentioned how insufferable it was and it was only when Vatican II (I think) relaxed a lot of the nonsense in the Catholic Church that they were able to adopt clothing suitable to the local climate. However, the habits they wore were imposed on them by the order and not something they voluntarily had liked. However, they wore them because they had taken vows of obedience, but since they were effectively brainwashed into thinking they were doing God's will, one could easily see this as oppression, even if voluntarily entered in to.

It shouldn't take a genius to understand that a normal person would not choose a life of celibacy and complete lack of personal direction without some form of coercion. In my own family (on my stepfather's side) for multiple generations there was heavy pressure on people going back several generations to becomes nuns and priests because their parents believed it would give them a guaranteed ticket into Heaven. Often the fear of an eternity in Hell was used as a motive to make people 'voluntarily choose' this life. Naturally, those coerced into doing it generally claim it was their own free will and they love doing it. If they say "This is a terrible life and I wish I could have a normal life involving sex, children, a self-chosen career which fulfills me, self determination... I have none of this and my life is terrible" their family will be furious and they will believe such a thing will condemn themselves and their parents to an eternity in Hell, so a few more years of difficulty and living in denial seems to be worthwhile. Hey, if I believed the story I'd be signing up for that hideous life too, and I'd believe that all the suffering was worth it.

Looking at Islam, they don't just have the threat of Hell in the afterlife, they have the literal threat of being tortured to death in this life and then being sent to an eternity in Hell. Even if you don't believe the story, you'll claim to love it and believe it.

It's so hideous that people are so stupid that they can literally use a group of examples of oppressed women to show that one of them isn't oppressed. Human stupidity is phenomenal. This stupidity is what is preventing them from seeing the writing on the wall, clear as it is, and calling anyone who reads it and speaks the message aloud crazy, hateful, paranoid, when they themselves are the ones defending and enabling current evil and near future disaster. It'll be interesting to see how many of them do wake up when the ship hits the sand. Perhaps it will take a shift in the official propaganda they are exposed to.