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Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

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A literal terrorist gains a group of people who he literally trains to be literal terrorists. He uses war and terrorism to take over national governments. He writes a book commanding followers to use terrorism or any other means necessary to overthrow national governments and implement his law. His law requires the literal extermination of anyone who does not submit. If people die they are dead. If people join, they may not leave (the punishment for leaving is death, and this is in most cases actively enforced, and is almost always enforced in countries in which the governments have already been converted). This ideology also commands that women be subjugated, non straight people must be executed, women can be beaten and raped at men's discretion. Slavery is all good! Sex slaves? Yep, take as many as you like. People who are not part of the group are not counted as human and have zero rights. Want to marry a little girl? No problem! Don't forget to chop up her genitals first. Keep her imprisoned for the rest of her life if you consider it appropriate; she's literally your property.

Genocide? It's not only an option, but it's your duty to take part in it or at least support those who do.

Oh, and questioning or changing a single word of the doctrine is punishable by death. Criticism of it in any form is punishable by death. Again, this is firmly enforced in places where they have taken over. This means it can not change or evolve.

This entity is growing faster than any other in the world. If left unopposed, at the current rate it will literally have a critical mass of members to allow it to completely take over the world within the lifetime of children living today.

If you can't see that this is evil, there is something wrong with you. If this doesn't count as evil, it will do until something evil comes along.

Condoning this incredibly evil thing is usually done because 'not all Muslims are bad'. Yes, that's true, most of them are good people. Most Nazis were good people too. Most people, even good people, will do whatever they're told if the alternative is being tortured to death. Most people don't understand politics or religion very well. The good people of Nazi Germany often didn't understand that they were supporting something so evil - they were brainwashed using propaganda to believe their side was good and just. If we applied the same 'most of them are good people' standards to Nazism it would have taken over the world. The religion, the entity itself, is absolutely evil. If it is not opposed, it will take over the world. If it is not opposed soon, it will be too late. It is literally growing at a rate fast enough to be able to take over the entire planet within the lifetime of today's living children.

There will inevitably be a war at some point. If something like this grows, and it is growing, when it gets to the point where the critical mass of people not part of it wake up to the reality that it is going to take over the world if it is not opposed, they will either actively oppose it or join. This is just tangible reality. If that happened now, it would be eliminated. At some point, the threshold will be reached where it would take over the world. It will happen. Which way it goes will depend on when it happens.

Sadly, events like what happened in Christchurch recently will become more common. It is not the right way to deal with the situation, but when people don't deal with it in the right way, some people will snap and fight terrorism with terrorism. This will accelerate the problem, it will make both sides feel like the instigator of the terrorism is justified (somehow, many *already* do!). The correct way is to understand the situation, wake up to reality, and implement appropriate, non violent strategies which educate people and don't harm anyone who hasn't actively shown any desire to hurt anyone. Sadly, it doesn't seem people are ready to do that, so the violence will escalate, and many innocent, good people will die, and many more will suffer greatly.
 
Well shall we start the Crusade now folks ? Seems as if you are all ready and geed up for a Final Solution.

If after reading Sjajii terrifying depiction of the unrelenting horror of rampant Islamic terrorism ... You get my drift.

I do not accept this trope. Just trotting it out as somehow "fact" and the basis upon which we then act is monstrous. It is the basis of the Manifesto. It is the basis of a Holy War of Survival. I don't buy the last few lines of non violence . IMV they are tacked on to provide a fig leaf of coverage to an approach that is looking for a war.

This is the ladder to hell.

‘The Ladder Down to Hell’: How Social Media Breeds Hate Speech
Following the massacre of 50 people at two mosques in Christchurch, Muslims weighed in on the daily impacts of online hate and misinformation.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2019/03/21/anti-muslim-hate-speech-rising/
 
basilio said:
Well shall we start the Crusade now folks ? Seems as if you are all ready and geed up for a Final Solution.

If after reading Sjajii terrifying depiction of the unrelenting horror of rampant Islamic terrorism ... You get my drift.

I do not accept this trope. Just trotting it out as somehow "fact" and the basis upon which we then act is monstrous. It is the basis of the Manifesto. It is the basis of a Holy War of Survival. I don't buy the last few lines of non violence . IMV they are tacked on to provide a fig leaf of coverage to an approach that is looking for a war.
Click to expand...

Which part of my post is not easily verifiable fact? Whether you look at tangibly recorded secular history or the version of history according to Islam itself, Mohammad was a terrorist who lead terrorists to use terror to overthrow governments/nations and install Islam as the system of rule and belief. It is by its very nature a totalitarian system of government in the most clear and obvious sense. Every country it has taken over was previously populated by people following a less violent religion, which made them easy targets. Every. single. one. of them. The number of countries under Islamic rule is continuing to grow. At the current rate, it will indeed take over the world if not opposed. Its rate of growth is accelerating.

None of the above can be disputed in any remotely reasonable way. It is all tangible fact.

And you accuse me of trying to encourage people to start a war. This is a false accusation of hate speech and/or a call to violence. I absolutely do no such thing and you should apologise for this accusation. As I explicitly said, fighting terrorism with terrorism is not the best way to deal with the situation. In my ideal world, people would oppose it with non violent means, and as futile as this is in reality, it is still what I try to encourage people to do.

Now, the future is not as easy to predict or state with absolute certainty as is the above, but some things are very obvious. If something gets to within reach of taking over the world, at the point where a critical mass of people realise it, there will be a war or a peaceful acceptance of the new thing. This is surely obvious to any reasonable person. If something is attempting to take over, and capable of it without resistance, it is either going to take over, or resistance will stop it (or attempt to and fail). Assuming you don't want to argue with this, none of the above can be disputed.

So, there is absolutely positively no reasonable way to doubt that either Islam will take over the world peacefully (well, it's already about 1,400 years into using terrorism to take over national governments, but best case scenario, utterly unrealistic as it is, let's say all Muslims tomorrow agree to settle their differences, and all people peacefully submit to Islam and convert), or, there is some resistance which either fails or succeeds.

It doesn't take a genius to see that sadly, world conflicts involving world governments, huge amounts of power, religious ideologies (especially ones which explicitly command the use of war and terrorism as tools!) generally (well, always) involve the use of violence and war rather than peaceful discussion and people coming to calm, rational agreements. I wish people would do this, I encourage people to go for the peaceful option, which is to oppose any terrorist organisation of any type in a non violent way, and to the greatest possible non violent extent, encourage all people to abandon any form of terrorist ideology. This is the only possible way to prevent the otherwise inevitable upcoming war, which will be bigger than any previously seen on this planet.

Sadly, I see effectively no hope in this succeeding, and I thus the war is inevitable. I dislike use of violence such as the Christchurch attack, because it gives legitimacy to the instigator of the terrorism. Both sides are now seen as terrorists, guilty, violent, and so, very clearly and obviously, it will radicalise more Muslims (that is, make them feel that it is time to do their duty exactly as commanded in their religion - it is the religion that is the extreme, radical thing, it is the religion which needs to be opposed, I don't call for the killing of people as you so disgustingly stated; killing innocent or naive people is exactly what I am opposed to, which is why I'm opposed to a doctrine which commands people to do it!).

If people will not take a peaceful but firm opposition to a terrorist movement, then it will grow, and the more it grows, the worse the war will be when people outside of it finally realise it is necessary to take action. This happens to all terrorist movements eventually, and the more that terrorist movement grows before it is opposed, the worse it gets when the crunch finally comes. This is by far the largest terrorist movement the planet has ever seen.

This is the ladder to hell.

‘The Ladder Down to Hell’: How Social Media Breeds Hate Speech
Following the massacre of 50 people at two mosques in Christchurch, Muslims weighed in on the daily impacts of online hate and misinformation.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2019/03/21/anti-muslim-hate-speech-rising/
Click to expand...

Snopes is now well known to be an extreme leftist disingenuous propaganda site which consistently lies.

It is incredible that while large scale Muslim terrorist attacks are as routinely ignored as they routinely occur, the media paints a story opposite to reality. None of the many which have occurred since and shortly before Christchurch get any media time, social or mainstream, but the one the other way gets turned into a massive story and painted as though it's the big thing we need to be worried out, and still, the media doing this tells us that Islamic terrorism is the thing being blown out of proportion, while simultaneously doing the exact opposite!

Sure, they are absolutely correct to say this act of terrorism was as bad as it was, but by making it a big story while ignoring the big picture they are fueling terrorism on both sides (and one can only assume deliberately so). Naturally, the Christchurch attack was always going to inspire counter terrorism from the original instigators of the issue. It was bad for this reason (in addition to just simply being a terrible thing to do in and of itself). Publicising it will obviously encourage counter attacks, again, this is obvious. Not publicising all of the many routine attacks on the other side will also encourage more attacks against Muslims.

One could dismiss this as simply being for the sake of ratings, but since the mainstream media is owned and controlled by the government, and these days it doesn't even pretend otherwise, that clearly isn't the case; it is to suit an agenda, and no remotely intelligent person needs those dots to be put together for them. But I suppose remotely intelligent people are pretty rare these days; most folks just blindly believe what the media tells them, despite generations saying you can't believe what the media says.

By all means, point out anything which you believe isn't accurate, but don't just say 'Oh, that's just scare mongering and you're encouraging people to be violent'. At least try to be a reasonable person carrying out a proper adult conversation, use some critical thinking rather than just unconditionally rejecting anything which doesn't fit the mainstream narrative, and there may be some productive results.
 
Sdajii said:
Snopes is now well known to be an extreme leftist disingenuous propaganda site which consistently lies.
Click to expand...

Says it all doesn't it Sdajii ? When you libel Snopes or Truthorfiction as an extreme leftist disingenuous propaganda site you are just demonstrating why little you say on this topic can be believed.

Snopes/Truthfiction exist to expose the urban legends, fakes, misinformation, lies and poisonous tropes endlessly created and circulated around the net. When you libel them as you have it is clear it is your information that is being held to account. Yes they are hated by the Trumps of this world who believe that just because they say something it has to be taken seriously. The fact is they investigate these stories thoroughly and show where and how errors, misinformation or outright lies have been told.

I identified the story about the other Muslim attacks as one that warranted further investigation. As usual the reality is a long way from the presentations of Breitbart or similar organisation.

Your depiction of Islam marching its way to world domination is as inflammatory as it's wrong. It is the core statement of the right wing terrorists groups attempting to radicialise people into the behaviors we saw in Christchurch. Being echoed here on ASF is not a good look Sdajii.:(

https://www.truthorfiction.com/were-70-christians-massacred-by-muslims-in-march-2019/
 
basilio said:
Your depiction of Islam marching its way to world domination is as inflammatory as it's wrong. It is the core statement of the right wing terrorists groups attempting to radicialise people into the behaviors we saw in Christchurch. Being echoed here on ASF is not a good look Sdajii.:(
Click to expand...

I disagree bas.

The hardening of Islamic republics has been obvious for years. Turkey used to be a modern progressive country, now it's becoming a hard line Islamic country. Brunei is bringing in harsh Sharia law. Even so called 'moderate' Islamic countries still flog homosexuals and repress women.

Is criticism of these things "hate speech" ? I'd like your opinion on that.

Why don't you post true stories that reflect badly on Islam ? An overdose of PC ?
 
bellenuit said:
Unfortunately I am not rich enough to boycott these hotels.

I guess George Clooney will now be labelled an Islamophobe.

George Clooney: Boycott hotels over Brunei anti-gay death laws

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...s-over-brunei-anti-gay-death-laws/3304730002/
Click to expand...

I wait with interest to see how the far left can defend the actions of the Brunei Islamic rulers.
It would certainly be extremely enlightening to witness the attempt as it would show so clearly how profound the blind spot and moral confusion has become.
The more likely response will be to look the other way....which is just as destructive probably.
 
basilio said:
Says it all doesn't it Sdajii ? When you libel Snopes or Truthorfiction as an extreme leftist disingenuous propaganda site you are just demonstrating why little you say on this topic can be believed.

Snopes/Truthfiction exist to expose the urban legends, fakes, misinformation, lies and poisonous tropes endlessly created and circulated around the net. When you libel them as you have it is clear it is your information that is being held to account. Yes they are hated by the Trumps of this world who believe that just because they say something it has to be taken seriously. The fact is they investigate these stories thoroughly and show where and how errors, misinformation or outright lies have been told.
Click to expand...

When you say this about Snopes you demonstrate you have no idea what you're talking about. Snopes has repeatedly, for years, been shown very clearly to lie, consistently in completely left-biased ways. Its ostensible purpose is not the same as its true one.

I identified the story about the other Muslim attacks as one that warranted further investigation. As usual the reality is a long way from the presentations of Breitbart or similar organisation.
Click to expand...

You say that like it's two or three on one side and one on the other, ignoring the fact that on one side it's literally a routine event where things like villages of Christians being completely wiped out is pretty normal, and goes unreported. Literally, for 1,400 years, terrorism and literal genocide have been used to
take over countries/governments, and this process literally continues to this day. In fact, right now, genocide is being carried out by a Muslim government which is sponsored by Australia, right on Australia's doorstep, and the media says nothing. There are examples of it all over the world. Literally every. single. one. of the Islamic countries today involved terrorism to convert the people. Literally every single one of them, and the pattern is only increasing. This is a clear, tangible, easily observed fact!

Your depiction of Islam marching its way to world domination is as inflammatory as it's wrong. It is the core statement of the right wing terrorists groups attempting to radicialise people into the behaviors we saw in Christchurch. Being echoed here on ASF is not a good look Sdajii.:(
Click to expand...

How is it wrong? It literally started around 1,400 years ago with one man, and through the use of terrorism, war and genocide, has overthrown many world governments. It is growing at an accelerating rate, has already taken around 22% of the world's population with over a quarter of all countries in the world having a Muslim majority. The number of people being killed, tortured and enslaved by it continues to rise. The trend is rapidly accelerating. It expressly states world domination through the use of war, terrorism and genocide (as well as lies and deception) as the mission statement. These are all literal, easily observed facts. How can you say it is not marching towards world domination?

I am not wanting to radicalise people, I am literally trying to do the opposite! A movement which has already taken around a quarter of the world's countries and is rapidly expanding and expressly states that terrorism is to be used to take over the world is itself clearly going to radicalise people if left unopposed through good means. I am saying (probably completely in vain) that people should take the only available alternative to the path to the one which will lead to the huge inevitable wars. You are trying to prevent that, which is exactly what will cause the violence, as we tangibly see increasing in the world today, because your ideas are so common. You are literally condoning a terrorist organisation, and somehow can't see that doing so will increase the amount of violence and terrorism in the world!

https://www.truthorfiction.com/were-70-christians-massacred-by-muslims-in-march-2019/
Click to expand...

Good grief, you are picking out a report of one single incidence of Muslims killing Christians which isn't entirely true. You do this as though such attacks aren't routinely happening all over the world!

I literally grew up in a community of people, all of whom had had friends and most of whom had had family members tortured to death by Muslims, supported by the government, for the crime of not wanting to be Muslim. Ironically, that community taught me that Islam is a good religion, which shows how much people's minds can be warped. This sort of thing goes on routinely all around the world. If one report gets it wrong, it doesn't change the big picture.

Even with my background, I was surprised when I first visited a Muslim country (Malaysia, a supposedly moderate Muslim country, and relative to the big picture, it is moderate) and learned that even there, if a Muslim wants to leave the religion, they will be killed as per standard policy. Many people are forced into converting to Islam there (including every child born into it) but to leave is punishable by death. They still claim and are officially recognised as having religious freedom! Most people don't go beyond official stories and narratives, and just believe the lies and misrepresentations.

Incidentally, if I wanted a violent response and cared about nothing else, I would pretend to believe exactly what you do, because it is exactly what will cause it. Sadly, it seems inevitable that you'll get your way and the result with be the biggest ever bloodbath.

I really wish everyone would learn about the history, read the Koran and look at the current situation. The picture is very clear. A peaceful solution is probably already impossible, but it gets less and less possible all the time, and the only way it can happen is if people understand the situation and understand the urgency to address it in a peaceful way, because the further along things get, the less possible a peaceful solution is. If people refuse to address it peacefully now, which requires them to genuinely learn about the reality of the situation, the war is inevitable. Sadly, most people will not learn any more than what the leftist media tells them, what the leftist propaganda sites like Snopes tell them, and the war they are pushing for will become a reality.
 
lindsayf said:
I wait with interest to see how the far left can defend the actions of the Brunei Islamic rulers.
It would certainly be extremely enlightening to witness the attempt as it would show so clearly how profound the blind spot and moral confusion has become.
The more likely response will be to look the other way....which is just as destructive probably.
Click to expand...

Those bleeding hearts lefties at the Human rights organisations have been calling out Brunei move to repressive order for some time you may have missed it as they do for other Islamic authoritarian dictatorships at great personal risk / cost.
 
On the other side, the speech by the Muslim gentleman who lost his wife in the CC massacre forgiving the gunman was a class act that we should take some heart from in relation to Islam.
 
SirRumpole said:
On the other side, the speech by the Muslim gentleman who lost his wife in the CC massacre forgiving the gunman was a class act that we should take some heart from in relation to Islam.
Click to expand...

That was lip service, clearly. If you can't see that was strategic virtue signaling there is something wrong with you. And whether or not you want to think it was genuinely heartfelt, it is completely counterproductive and inappropriate. What the gunman did was wrong, it was bad, we should not forgive him. No one really wants to forgive him. The act itself was bad and far worse still it will cause more conflict. Either side forgiving such people causes more harm than good. To most regular people who don't bother seeing any deeper or thinking any further than 'Oh, how sweet, how brave, how inspiring' it seems beautiful, but most regular people aren't the ones who are going to pick up guns or strap explosives to themselves. Probably no one here will (but hey, apparently some years ago this gunman was a friend posting among us here! Gee, who knows? It's a disturbing thought!)... actually, the more I think about it, such people could be anywhere, as this very example demonstrates.

Terrorists attacking innocent people should not be forgiven. Sheep are easy prey. He should not be forgiving this terrorist, he should be speaking out about the terrorists on his own side, clearly and unabiguously disavowing them, saying that he will never condone terrorism or anything which promotes or condones it, realising his own religion does exactly that, and leaving it. Anyone seen as being on the Christchurch gunman's side, whether or not it is valid, should say they do not condone what he did. I must admit, several of the people I have spoken to (not all of them white or Christian, including the one who by far spoke in admiration of the Christchurch terrorist) are on the side of this guy. I have a friend who is a soldier frequently assigned as a peacekeeper in a region where Muslim terror attacks are common (he is neither white, western nor Christian) who only has positive things to say about the guy. People on the ground exposed to the reality very often sympathise with it. They see the reality of the problem, they can't see regular people doing anything about it, and many people only understand violence being an answer. When regular people like majority of us here on this forum won't take a peaceful stand for what is right, violence is inevitable. 'Forgiving' someone for an act like this should not be encouraged. I don't forgive the people who tortured friends and family of my friends to death. I don't forgive the Christchurch terrorist. No one should. I stand in peaceful but firm opposition to them in the desperate hope that others will follow, which is the only possible way that people more prone to violence won't end up turning it into a war, which may very well force regular people like us to either lay down and die (as very many people only one degree of separation from myself have done, and a few I have personally known have come to) or literally fight for their lives.

When I lived in Australia, before spending much time outside of that little bubble, I didn't realise how prone to unexpected violence the world is. Australians in particular think any mention of it is scaremongering etc, because they think they are safe. Almost no war activity has ever come to the shores of Australia, ever, and conscription hasn't been seen for generations and is seen as something from long ago with a return unthinkable. The near future is really going to catch a lot of people in Australia off guard, but will me much less of a surprise to most people in the world.
 

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