ELECTIONS - Labor or Liberal

[wayneL]

Perhaps because honest john promised to keep interest rates at record lows?

Exactly!

Gu'mints (not just here but all over) have been promising lower interest rates right up until a couple of months ago.

Merv (the perve) King had been promising that inflation would ease (and therefore interest rates) for the last eighteen months.

This is something that many young people can only learn the hard way... Governments LIE!

 

[2020hindsight]

people can only learn the hard way... Governments LIE!

hey cmon wayne !!
they don't lie!
just that, well,
sometimes, they get the line wrong between "core promises" and "non-core"

 

[moXJO]

hey cmon wayne !!
they don't lie!
just that, well,
sometimes, they get the line wrong between "core promises" and "non-core"

You mean children have been living in poverty since 1990
Honest johns best one was the "I will not introduce GST"

 

[Julia]

i'll repeat what i said...
There is one thing to have choice, its a completely different thing to have the option to excercise choice.

the choices exist because of the mining boom... (tho i am sure not everyone is cut out to be a miner!) The IR laws will exist long after it....

If someone CHOOSES to work weekends at no penalty rates simply to help stop their house being repossessed... do you call that having CHOICE?


i am all for personal responsibility... but then be prepared for huge social inequity and the other social repercussions that come with that... cause in the end, we do all live in the same society... you need look no further than the US for proof.

If your happy with that... then thats fine... thats your CHOICE. Cast your vote accordingly.

Rafa, I simply can't follow your reasoning here. As I stated earlier, yes indeed I did choose to work weekends and at no penalty rates. Nothing to do with a house being repossessed.
I have always had plenty of choices of jobs and never had to consider being a miner, for heaven's sake.
Why does personal responsiblity imply huge social inequity? I would have thought quite the reverse. If more people did take responsibility for their own lives and outcomes, we would have a damn sight fewer people existing on welfare.

 

[arminius]

good evening all,

as i watch the value of my portfolio shrink each day i am somewhat comforted to read savvy people contributing to an entertaining and informed discussion on the future of australia.
i was hoping to ask a nagging question. in what way has our g'ment advanced the country over the last decade.
these areas should be able to stand up to reasoned scrutiny here.
ann's made in the last 3 months dont count as they are either reactionary or poll driven. leave aside the economy, as global influence, a massive mining boom, and divided opinion among respected economists eg ross gittens require its own thread.
a decade is a fair timeframe to judge a gov't that has controlled both houses.

eg: national security, education, human rights, environment, infrastructure etc.

 

[kivvygosh]

The majority of Australian still work under EBA and awards

I wonder if there are any statistics to back this up?

I've only been in the workforce since after John Howard was elected. My first job was under an EBA - I supposed because it was for Australia Post, which is a Government owned company and fairly unionised. I expect that they are still putting people on EBAs over there.

However in the half dozen + jobs I've had since, I've always worked on either AWA (twice) or Common Law agreement (the rest).

One of the employers that offered an AWA gave the option of an award but, as anyone who has earnt award wages knows, the choice between an award and an AWA is generally an easy one. The employer is prepared to pay significantly more to you in return for the 'flexibility' (ie if you don't perform they can fire you).

I've done some quick searches on percentages of workers employed under different types of contracts but can't find anything. Anyone know of any sources?

 

[mark70920]

I wonder if there are any statistics to back this up?

I've only been in the workforce since after John Howard was elected. My first job was under an EBA - I supposed because it was for Australia Post, which is a Government owned company and fairly unionised. I expect that they are still putting people on EBAs over there.

However in the half dozen + jobs I've had since, I've always worked on either AWA (twice) or Common Law agreement (the rest).

One of the employers that offered an AWA gave the option of an award but, as anyone who has earnt award wages knows, the choice between an award and an AWA is generally an easy one. The employer is prepared to pay significantly more to you in return for the 'flexibility' (ie if you don't perform they can fire you).

I've done some quick searches on percentages of workers employed under different types of contracts but can't find anything. Anyone know of any sources?

I will try to find you some stats , but it difficult as both the unions and the government quote different figures , I have attach a link to an article on wages and conditions on awards , EBA's vs AWA's. It may suprise you.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/05/1970390.htm

 

[mark70920]

Here is the link to the governement site on work place agreements stats

http://www.oea.gov.au/text.asp?showdoc=/news/researchStatistics.asp

 

[Sprinter79]

I will try to find you some stats , but it difficult as both the unions and the government quote different figures , I have attach a link to an article on wages and conditions on awards , EBA's vs AWA's. It may suprise you.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/05/1970390.htm

Some key stats:

*Take WA out of the picture, and everywhere else AWA workers average 11 per cent less than workers on collective agreements.

*Female casuals on registered individual contracts averaged 8 per cent less than those reliant on the award. And this was before the full impact of abolishing the no-disadvantage test was felt.

*88 per cent of AWAs abolished or 'modified' overtime rates; 89 per cent of AWAs either abolished or 'modified' shiftwork loading; 91 per cent abolished or 'modified' monetary allowances; 85 per cent abolished or 'modified' incentive payments; 82 per cent abolished or 'modified' public holiday payments; and 83 per cent abolished or 'modified' rest breaks. (FWIW, rest breaks are an OHS issue, so AWA's that abolish rest breaks would be breaking both state and federal OHS legislation)

*We know that AWAs last for up to five years, and that while a majority of AWAs gave at least one wage increase, for only 14 per cent was it a guaranteed, quantifiable increase.

*The new no-disadvantage test doesn't apply to AWAs already signed.

 

[Rafa]

If more people did take responsibility for their own lives and outcomes, we would have a damn sight fewer people existing on welfare.

I agree 100%... in theory. But I think you are overestimating peoples capabilities to do the above...

I am coming mainly from the social consequences point of view... the more poeple that falll off the social ladder, the worse it gets for everyone in society... unless you build a moat around your neighbourhood and protect it with force.

Its also the reason, where in the country where that principle is adhered to most stringently... everyone needs to carry guns and there are lot of people on welfare or working for $5 an hour.

Having AWA's means its a race to the bottom in wages and conditions.... and huge profits for those who run businesses...

What makes a society great is the collective wealth not the individual wealth. That is why Australia is such a great country today and the UK 100 years ago was filled with petty thieves they had to dispatch to Australia... Did anyone see the worst jobs in history... the cigarette matches factory workers in the UK... no wonder the union movement started... that was barely 100 years ago... not that long time ago... and its that that distributed the wealth from the owners to the workers and made the country as a whole a lot more prosperous.

 

[numbercruncher]

Why does personal responsiblity imply huge social inequity? I would have thought quite the reverse. If more people did take responsibility for their own lives and outcomes, we would have a damn sight fewer people existing on welfare.

I see this kind of statement as narrow minded but roughly typical of the Baby boomer mindset.

By mere virtue of being born when they where baby boomers have Inherited a kind of prosperity that has not been enjoyed by virtually any other generation ever.

They havnt worked harder or smarter, they where simply in the right place at the right time.

Perhaps if more people took responsibility for "other" peoples lives we would have a damn sight fewer people existing on Welfare eh ?

Australias economic prosperity of the last few years has done little more than build an economic bridge between the haves and have nots.

I see this all across Australia, I even have a personal experience of this, My parents are divorced, One is a Millionaire and one "exists" on welfare, One gets richer by the day the other is 100pc reliant on welfare.

The socio econmomic gap in Australia has been widened hugely the last few years and i know its easy when you have it all to question why others dont, but to treat them with distain is simply unAustralian

 

[moXJO]

Seems awards are a sticking point here. So if awards were protected but the dismissal laws remained the same would that be a justifiable trade off, or still not kosher?

 

[Rafa]

moXJO,

i have no problems with unfair dismissal laws being abolished for small businesses ... as long as the NO DISADVANTAGE test is retained in terms of wages and conditions.

I would re-define what a small business is... i.e. i think 100 staff ain't no small business... i would define it more on turnover... say > 10m. But certainly agree with the principle.

 

[Julia]

I agree 100%... in theory. But I think you are overestimating peoples capabilities to do the above...

I am coming mainly from the social consequences point of view... the more poeple that falll off the social ladder, the worse it gets for everyone in society... unless you build a moat around your neighbourhood and protect it with force.

Its also the reason, where in the country where that principle is adhered to most stringently... everyone needs to carry guns and there are lot of people on welfare or working for $5 an hour.

Having AWA's means its a race to the bottom in wages and conditions.... and huge profits for those who run businesses...

What makes a society great is the collective wealth not the individual wealth. That is why Australia is such a great country today and the UK 100 years ago was filled with petty thieves they had to dispatch to Australia... Did anyone see the worst jobs in history... the cigarette matches factory workers in the UK... no wonder the union movement started... that was barely 100 years ago... not that long time ago... and its that that distributed the wealth from the owners to the workers and made the country as a whole a lot more prosperous.

Fair comment, Rafa. I understand what you are saying.

 

[Julia]

I see this kind of statement as narrow minded but roughly typical of the Baby boomer mindset.

By mere virtue of being born when they where baby boomers have Inherited a kind of prosperity that has not been enjoyed by virtually any other generation ever.

They havnt worked harder or smarter, they where simply in the right place at the right time.

What a silly generalisation. I'm not interested in telling you of the many difficulties I and many of my friends have had to overcome, but simply inheriting prosperity wasn't part of it. I recall interest rates of 22% for starters.

Perhaps if more people took responsibility for "other" peoples lives we would have a damn sight fewer people existing on Welfare eh ?

It so happens that I spend many hours working with people on welfare in several different capacities in order to make their lives more manageable, and am mostly not paid for this. I see all the time first hand those who make a genuine attempt to change their lives and who have been immensely unfortunate, but also plenty who are perfectly content to exist on the dole and have no interest in getting a job. Example: a bunch of bikies sharing accommodation, all getting either the dole or Disability Pension, behind in the rent, unpaid electricity, because the money has gone into alcohol and drugs, plus their long distance rides.

Australias economic prosperity of the last few years has done little more than build an economic bridge between the haves and have nots.

I see this all across Australia, I even have a personal experience of this, My parents are divorced, One is a Millionaire and one "exists" on welfare, One gets richer by the day the other is 100pc reliant on welfare.

The socio econmomic gap in Australia has been widened hugely the last few years and i know its easy when you have it all to question why others dont, but to treat them with distain is simply unAustralian

You are making assumptions with arrogance and ignorance.

 

[numbercruncher]

What a silly generalisation. I'm not interested in telling you of the many difficulties I and many of my friends have had to overcome, but simply inheriting prosperity wasn't part of it. I recall interest rates of 22% for starters.

Sure it was baby boomers mostly Inherited there wealth, you didnt work for a 500k home you worked for a 80k home, the boom did all the work.

22pc Interest rates, personally id like those times to return.

It so happens that I spend many hours working with people on welfare in several different capacities in order to make their lives more manageable, and am mostly not paid for this. I see all the time first hand those who make a genuine attempt to change their lives and who have been immensely unfortunate, but also plenty who are perfectly content to exist on the dole and have no interest in getting a job. Example: a bunch of bikies sharing accommodation, all getting either the dole or Disability Pension, behind in the rent, unpaid electricity, because the money has gone into alcohol and drugs, plus their long distance rides.

Good on you for your charitable work.

Where are all these Bikies on the Dole that you speak of ? Does the dole pay enough now a days to buy Drugs , Alcohol, rent , motorcycles and petrol, wow thats awesome, where do i sign up ? This is what im talking about with typical baby boomer mindsets.

You are making assumptions with arrogance and ignorance

Sorry you took it all so personally.

 

[moXJO]

Sure it was baby boomers mostly Inherited there wealth, you didnt work for a 500k home you worked for a 80k home, the boom did all the work.

22pc Interest rates, personally id like those times to return.

Good on you for your charitable work.

Where are all these Bikies on the Dole that you speak of ? Does the dole pay enough now a days to buy Drugs , Alcohol, rent , motorcycles and petrol, wow thats awesome, where do i sign up ? This is what im talking about with typical baby boomer mindsets.


Sorry you took it all so personally.

What an odd way of looking at things

 

[numbercruncher]

What an odd way of looking at things

lol i know im an odd person.


Just tales from Baby boomers of there hardships bore me to tears because they are for the large part exagerated and it irks me when they turn around and insinuate that those without dont try or are mostly the sum of there own equation.

For the large part the baby boomers wealth is the debt of the current generation.

Im not begrudging baby boomers, just seems alot of them take the deal forgranted and dont realise how easy it was/is for them.

 

[moXJO]

lol i know im an odd person.


Just tales from Baby boomers of there hardships bore me to tears because they are for the large part exagerated and it irks me when they turn around and insinuate that those without dont try or are mostly the sum of there own equation.

For the large part the baby boomers wealth is the debt of the current generation.

Im not begrudging baby boomers, just seems alot of them take the deal forgranted and dont realise how easy it was/is for them.

Lol ,not odd in bad way. That was actually a perspective I had not thought about.

However I do believe that at this time there is a lot of opportunities in a lot of areas to get yourself ahead. With some forward thinking and the shortage of skilled workers in so many areas it’s a great time to look at your options. Takes some hard work but depends on how much you want it.Nothing wrong with being happy in your current position of course.

 

[numbercruncher]

Lol ,not odd in bad way. That was actually a perspective I had not thought about.

However I do believe that at this time there is a lot of opportunities in a lot of areas to get yourself ahead. With some forward thinking and the shortage of skilled workers in so many areas it’s a great time to look at your options. Takes some hard work but depends on how much you want it.Nothing wrong with being happy in your current position of course.

I agree moXJO , there is loads of opportunities and particularly like you said if you plan ahead. I read there is a plumber shortage at the moment with most not getting out of bed for less than 1500 a day - now thats pretty cool , Plumbers on 300k+ a year.

Maybe its part of the reason why its been thumbed a crack up boom.

There is how ever a growing proportion of society that have been left behind, and id cite especially the Young (which is demonstrated in the sheer numbers of 20 somethings still living at home) and the ones whom i feel most sorry for are the very old who are retired on there 1980s money.

Its just become to convienient to blame the have nots for there have nots.

I made a considerable profit on the first house i bought and sold, but i know i didnt "earn" that profit but someone sure paid for it by indebting there future.

I dont know what an equitable solution is, but it all seems so unsustainable to me.

The government touts how theyve reduced Government debt to zero, but this debt has merely been transferred (and increased) to Citizens in the form of personal debt and mortgages, if the good times dont keep rolling, man o man ....