ELECTIONS - Labor or Liberal

[mime]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/...1186530620059.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

Since I've been reading this thread, it is clear that many people are still buying the tripe that Howard has been prattling on about for last 11 years. Nasty, horrid unions are destroying our economic competitiveness etc..
Above is the address of an article in this morning's Sydney Morning Herald. The article disusses the findings from the World Economic Forum which compared the global competitiveness of countries using both hard data and a survey of 11 000 business leaders. Denmark at number 4 (after Switzerland, Finland and Sweden) is well ahead of Australia at no.19. As the article points out, Denmark is characterised by extremely high union membership, a strong welfare system and high spending on training and education. Further, Denmark has low inflation, low unemployment and runs budget surpluses which is completely contrary to what Howard would have us believe would occur here. Demonising unions and cutting education and research expenditure as fast as the paperwork can be completed can hardly be reagarded as sound economic management. Before someone pipes up with the interest rate boogie man, its also noteworthy that a large survey of business economists at the last election found that the it was largely irrelevent which party won government, as it is the global economic situation that dictates interest rates. More garbage that the Australian public has been swallowing.

I think it'll back fire when their young, intelligent workers will take up jobs in other Eu countries with less oppressive taxes once they finish studying. My girlfriend is Danish and she is studying law in Aus at the expense of the Danish Govt. It's unlikely she will work in Denmark once she finishes as her degree is in English.

 

[Sprinter79]

If businesses especially small ones are at the mercy of a collective bargaining agreements and the union and the business shuts down who wins? The employee? The employer? The answer is neither.

God damn it. Just because there is a collective bargaining agreement in place, doesn't automatically mean that a business will shut down. It is a very fine line between securing fair pay for the employees and pricing themselves out of the market, and the unions know it. Just because the only coverage that the unions get in mainstream media is the militant extremists, doesn't mean that there aren't people behind the scenes working all this out.

If you want to talk about a union driven agreement, check out the minimum wage case. If a business can't afford to pay minimum wage, they shouldn't be in business.

 

[moXJO]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/...1186530620059.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

Since I've been reading this thread, it is clear that many people are still buying the tripe that Howard has been prattling on about for last 11 years. Nasty, horrid unions are destroying our economic competitiveness etc..
Above is the address of an article in this morning's Sydney Morning Herald. The article disusses the findings from the World Economic Forum which compared the global competitiveness of countries using both hard data and a survey of 11 000 business leaders. Denmark at number 4 (after Switzerland, Finland and Sweden) is well ahead of Australia at no.19. As the article points out, Denmark is characterised by extremely high union membership, a strong welfare system and high spending on training and education. Further, Denmark has low inflation, low unemployment and runs budget surpluses which is completely contrary to what Howard would have us believe would occur here. Demonising unions and cutting education and research expenditure as fast as the paperwork can be completed can hardly be reagarded as sound economic management. Before someone pipes up with the interest rate boogie man, its also noteworthy that a large survey of business economists at the last election found that the it was largely irrelevent which party won government, as it is the global economic situation that dictates interest rates. More garbage that the Australian public has been swallowing.

Wow you read in the paper about a place you do not live and work in and take it as gospel to greener pastures, better check their tax rate skint and I doubt our pollies are as efficient. I worked under the old system when the unions had a strangle hold in construction. And the corruption and arrogance was rife. In fact we had a very strong welfare system back then as well, remember the old gravy train and dole bludger references. Under labor early 90s no one could be bothered getting jobs which was lucky because their were none around at the time. I don’t need Howard to tell me how it was or this "swallowing garbage" crap. I’m not worried about the new media sob story or how other countries are making this or that work. I’m worried about labor bringing back its old problems that they had established before. Hmmm lets reimpose the old industrial relations system ,innovative thinking there.

If I think Rudds policies or future direction are better then I will vote for him ,but at the moment Johnny and Rudd are so alike that there is not really much difference.And the old I.R laws are my sticking point.

Red tape will be the downfall of small business and most do not have the resources to fight the unions or the time to waste doing so. Considering how many people have become sub-contractors or small business since Howard has been in I dare say they are looking at these issues as well. I dare say most of the miners will be watching carefully too.

 

[moXJO]

Something that people seem to be missing here is the effect AWAs will have on those who are most vunerable in our society. The young, the unskilled, those with poor education levels etc.

When the job market turns, the AWA's will go to those who undercut the price other workers will offer. The young will be exploited, the unskilled will have to work for pittance (and not be able to pay off their HSV) and those who can't read will sign something that completely rips them off. It's either that, or don't have a job.

Won’t this be a good thing for unions who can actually become relevant again and do something for their members.Has union membership been climbing the last few months?

 

[Smurf1976]

I had an interesting conversation with someone last week. In short, they actually seem happy with a situation where their employees never express a view that differs from their own and are quite happy with a working environment which actively discourages innovation - credit goes to those at the top whilst the blame for errors always goes to whoever made them.

They pointed out to me "that's how it works everywhere" and didn't see a problem with it.

Very, very dumb IMO. It might work now and it might be common, but at some point it's going to go horribly wrong when you're encouraging your employees to not think too much.

Best thing I ever did was convincing those at the bottom to hold me accountable, ask lots of "difficult" questions and, most importantly, think for themselves. We have recorded a 57% productivity increase in 18 months and still trending up.

 

[skint]

If businesses especially small ones are at the mercy of a collective bargaining agreements and the union and the business shuts down who wins? The employee? The employer? The answer is neither.

If collective agreements resulted in businesses shutting down, you would expect low unempoyment in countries with individual "agreements" and high unemployment in heavily unionised countries. Howard would have us believe this is the case, but of course no such association exists.

 

[Julia]

I had an interesting conversation with someone last week. In short, they actually seem happy with a situation where their employees never express a view that differs from their own and are quite happy with a working environment which actively discourages innovation - credit goes to those at the top whilst the blame for errors always goes to whoever made them.

They pointed out to me "that's how it works everywhere" and didn't see a problem with it.

Very, very dumb IMO. It might work now and it might be common, but at some point it's going to go horribly wrong when you're encouraging your employees to not think too much.

Best thing I ever did was convincing those at the bottom to hold me accountable, ask lots of "difficult" questions and, most importantly, think for themselves. We have recorded a 57% productivity increase in 18 months and still trending up.

Doesn't it depend somewhat on the business?
I'm with you and wouldn't work for someone who didn't allow me some input, but I guess a business such as Woolworths isn't going to have every check out operator expecting to have a say in how things are done.

 

[skint]

I think it'll back fire when their young, intelligent workers will take up jobs in other Eu countries with less oppressive taxes once they finish studying. My girlfriend is Danish and she is studying law in Aus at the expense of the Danish Govt. It's unlikely she will work in Denmark once she finishes as her degree is in English.

The Danes indeed pay excessive tax but that doesn't alter the fact that their high union membership exists in a low unemployment environment. Collective agreements have not lead to high unemployment. Your girlfriend may understandably choose to work outside Denmark due to the tax rates, but probably not because of the employment situation.

 

[skint]

Wow you read in the paper about a place you do not live and work in and take it as gospel to greener pastures, better check their tax rate skint and I doubt our pollies are as efficient. I worked under the old system when the unions had a strangle hold in construction. And the corruption and arrogance was rife. In fact we had a very strong welfare system back then as well, remember the old gravy train and dole bludger references. Under labor early 90s no one could be bothered getting jobs which was lucky because their were none around at the time. I don’t need Howard to tell me how it was or this "swallowing garbage" crap. I’m not worried about the new media sob story or how other countries are making this or that work. I’m worried about labor bringing back its old problems that they had established before. Hmmm lets reimpose the old industrial relations system ,innovative thinking there.

If I think Rudds policies or future direction are better then I will vote for him ,but at the moment Johnny and Rudd are so alike that there is not really much difference.And the old I.R laws are my sticking point.

Red tape will be the downfall of small business and most do not have the resources to fight the unions or the time to waste doing so. Considering how many people have become sub-contractors or small business since Howard has been in I dare say they are looking at these issues as well. I dare say most of the miners will be watching carefully too.

No, I'm not advocating Denmark as some utopian state. For example, I'm not a great fan of their high taxes. Domestically, the GST has swamped any income tax cuts, so Howard's record on tax is not good. You've also neglected to recognise that it was Labour that managed to achieve the industrial reforms that have placed Australia in a more competitive position, when they introduced enterprise bargaining. It is widely accepted that enterprise bargaining produces efficiencies. AWA's over time simply lead to lower wages for the vulnerable, with no productivity benefits. New Zealand provides a good example of individual agreements not leading to enhanced productivity. America has weak unions and a minimal wage that borders on the criminal. Their unemployment rate is not dissimilar to ours and 15-20% of the population live in poverty. What a glowing example of a dog eat dog society. If you look at the polls, there are more voters concerned about the draconian IR laws than there are voters lovingly embracing them. Of relevance to us traders/investors/(punters? lol), are the surveys of economists held each election, that consistently indicate that a change in government (either way) has a neglible effect on either interest rates or the markets. I think you're confusing Howard genius with a worldwide economic boom. As Costello has repeatedly stated, Howard spends the profits of the boom like a drunken sailor before an election simply to get elected and with scant regard as to whether the money is spent efficiently.

 

[greggy]

Wow you read in the paper about a place you do not live and work in and take it as gospel to greener pastures, better check their tax rate skint and I doubt our pollies are as efficient. I worked under the old system when the unions had a strangle hold in construction. And the corruption and arrogance was rife. In fact we had a very strong welfare system back then as well, remember the old gravy train and dole bludger references. Under labor early 90s no one could be bothered getting jobs which was lucky because their were none around at the time. I don’t need Howard to tell me how it was or this "swallowing garbage" crap. I’m not worried about the new media sob story or how other countries are making this or that work. I’m worried about labor bringing back its old problems that they had established before. Hmmm lets reimpose the old industrial relations system ,innovative thinking there.

If I think Rudds policies or future direction are better then I will vote for him ,but at the moment Johnny and Rudd are so alike that there is not really much difference.And the old I.R laws are my sticking point.

Red tape will be the downfall of small business and most do not have the resources to fight the unions or the time to waste doing so. Considering how many people have become sub-contractors or small business since Howard has been in I dare say they are looking at these issues as well. I dare say most of the miners will be watching carefully too.

Howard and Rudd are indeed very similar. Both are economic and social conservatives. IMO the major points of difference are IR and Iraq. Howard is well behind in the polls, but is still leading in terms of economic management (according to the polls). Rudd is definitely playing a smart game agreeing with Howard on most issues. This is shaping up to be a very interesting election, most likely to be held in Nov 07 (my guess). Still undecided as to whom I'll go for.

 

[skint]

Howard and Rudd are indeed very similar. Both are economic and social conservatives. IMO the major points of difference are IR and Iraq. Howard is well behind in the polls, but is still leading in terms of economic management (according to the polls). Rudd is definitely playing a smart game agreeing with Howard on most issues. This is shaping up to be a very interesting election, most likely to be held in Nov 07 (my guess). Still undecided as to whom I'll go for.

At Centrebet, the shortest odds are all dates in Nov., so I'd have to agree with your 'guess'. The bookies are usually pretty good predictors of election dates and outcomes. The government is currently at $2.60 and Labour at $1.55, but this can change as the campaign heats up of course. Howard will leave it as late as he can IMHO but he probably wouldn't want to hold it over the holiday season. People don't like having their holidays interrupted. Greggy, you've been sitting on that fence for a while now. Careful you don't cause yourself an injury mate!

 

[moXJO]

No, I'm not advocating Denmark as some utopian state. For example, I'm not a great fan of their high taxes. Domestically, the GST has swamped any income tax cuts, so Howard's record on tax is not good. You've also neglected to recognise that it was Labour that managed to achieve the industrial reforms that have placed Australia in a more competitive position, when they introduced enterprise bargaining. It is widely accepted that enterprise bargaining produces efficiencies. AWA's over time simply lead to lower wages for the vulnerable, with no productivity benefits. New Zealand provides a good example of individual agreements not leading to enhanced productivity. America has weak unions and a minimal wage that borders on the criminal. Their unemployment rate is not dissimilar to ours and 15-20% of the population live in poverty. What a glowing example of a dog eat dog society. If you look at the polls, there are more voters concerned about the draconian IR laws than there are voters lovingly embracing them. Of relevance to us traders/investors/(punters? lol), are the surveys of economists held each election, that consistently indicate that a change in government (either way) has a neglible effect on either interest rates or the markets. I think you're confusing Howard genius with a worldwide economic boom. As Costello has repeatedly stated, Howard spends the profits of the boom like a drunken sailor before an election simply to get elected and with scant regard as to whether the money is spent efficiently.

Denmark has very flexible hiring and firing rules I thought? Don't they have the least restrictive rules on dismissal? I'd like to see labor bring that in lol

 

[Flying Fish]

Won't matter who is in power, the next government will fry due to the global situation. My opinion though.

 

[2020hindsight]

Some great quotes on this morning's Insiders on ABC :-
"we have the choice between one little guy with glasses, or another little guy with glasses".
"these days when people see a politician pull a rabbit out of a hat, they are wise enough to say , "yep, that's a rabbit all right" "

 

[juiceman]

I would like to put the cat amongst the pidgeons for a moment; re Labour and Liberal.
My company owns 9 retail outlets in shopping centre's in the Eastern States.
We must by law trade; Thursday night/Saturday and Sunday.
We employ 60 to 80 people depending on the time of year, most are part time, and have worked WITH us for years.
Our staff are happy
Their age ranges between 16yrs if they are new, to 62yrs, and they are not stupid, they like working for us.
They are well paid for what they do.
Because of the type of business we have, none of them will be able to create their own empire,via working with us directly.
Some of the younger one's will move on to much better thing's, and we promote that.
Others are happy with their life and just want flexability, or some extra cash for themselves while their children are at school.
Some can only work the odd day per wk because of their own needs; ie
school/study/home/husband/children/sport/hobbies, their life etc
Some can only work weekends, others only through the week.
We are what you might call small business in Australia.
Any of our staff can take a holiday with their family any time they choose, so long as they can swap or change their shifts another staff member.
All of the above could not happen if it was a union workplace.
There is no official award that could work in our workplace.
We do not pay penalty rates ( why should somebody be paid more for working weekends, when that may be the only time they can work)
Would you swap a weekend shift to work mid week for half pay (i don't think so)
How would our mid week staff feel about working 2 day's for the same money as one that just work's one Sunday (that's not fair i think)
And our company flexibility would be gone
Our staff's flexibility would be gone,they would no longer enjoy their work and
would look to leave, or retire.
If Labour and their union heavies think they will be able to push small business around, they should think again.
I like many others would just sell our businesses to owner operators, and retire.
Thats the begining of higher unemployment, starting with 60 or 70 of my own ex employee's

 

[wayneL]

I would like to put the cat amongst the pidgeons for a moment; re Labour and Liberal.
My company owns 9 retail outlets in shopping centre's in the Eastern States.
We must by law trade; Thursday night/Saturday and Sunday.
We employ 60 to 80 people depending on the time of year, most are part time, and have worked WITH us for years.
Our staff are happy
Their age ranges between 16yrs if they are new, to 62yrs, and they are not stupid, they like working for us.
They are well paid for what they do.
Because of the type of business we have, none of them will be able to create their own empire,via working with us directly.
Some of the younger one's will move on to much better thing's, and we promote that.
Others are happy with their life and just want flexability, or some extra cash for themselves while their children are at school.
Some can only work the odd day per wk because of their own needs; ie
school/study/home/husband/children/sport/hobbies, their life etc
Some can only work weekends, others only through the week.
We are what you might call small business in Australia.
Any of our staff can take a holiday with their family any time they choose, so long as they can swap or change their shifts another staff member.
All of the above could not happen if it was a union workplace.
There is no official award that could work in our workplace.
We do not pay penalty rates ( why should somebody be paid more for working weekends, when that may be the only time they can work)
Would you swap a weekend shift to work mid week for half pay (i don't think so)
How would our mid week staff feel about working 2 day's for the same money as one that just work's one Sunday (that's not fair i think)
And our company flexibility would be gone
Our staff's flexibility would be gone,they would no longer enjoy their work and
would look to leave, or retire.
If Labour and their union heavies think they will be able to push small business around, they should think again.
I like many others would just sell our businesses to owner operators, and retire.
Thats the begining of higher unemployment, starting with 60 or 70 of my own ex employee's

Great points juiceman. (a clue to your business in your moniker?)

To remain relevant, todays unions must evolve with the times and reflect the current workplace landscape as you've outlined.

Is there still a place for unions? Certainly not the old style thugs that persist in the building industry, but to try to get rid of them altogether, would virtually guarantee their eventual resurgence.

You sound like the type of employer unions should be encouraging and working with. But there is still a need because there are still plenty of @rseholes out there.

 

[wayneL]

Won't matter who is in power, the next government will fry due to the global situation. My opinion though.

Agree, it's a poison chalice. Not just here, US and UK also.

 

[Smurf1976]

Doesn't it depend somewhat on the business?
I'm with you and wouldn't work for someone who didn't allow me some input, but I guess a business such as Woolworths isn't going to have every check out operator expecting to have a say in how things are done.

True. It wouldn't work at Wollies. Should have mentioned that the business in question is highly technical computer / engineering / electronics related.

 

[Smurf1976]

Won't matter who is in power, the next government will fry due to the global situation. My opinion though.

I think of this situation every time I hear that "x will happen under Labor". What they aren't saying is it's just as likely to happen under the Liberals.

The interest rate farce is the absolute classic example since neither Rudd nor Howard are running for election to the US Federal Reserve, Bank of Japan or the European Central Bank.

 

[juiceman]

Great points juiceman. (a clue to your business in your moniker?)

To remain relevant, todays unions must evolve with the times and reflect the current workplace landscape as you've outlined.

Is there still a place for unions? Certainly not the old style thugs that persist in the building industry, but to try to get rid of them altogether, would virtually guarantee their eventual resurgence.

You sound like the type of employer unions should be encouraging and working with. But there is still a need because there are still plenty of @rseholes out there.

Thankyou for your comments WayneL
Without good, and happy staff it would be impossible for my wife and i to have more than one retail outlet as you can only be in one place at a time.
With or without employer unions, business's with owner or manager operator @rsholes are easy to spot, they are the one's that continually have new staff that do not look happy.

Ps when i posted i really expected to be attacked for my comments re penalty rates etc
Maybee i should test the waters with Miss Gillard