Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2) outbreak discussion

[moXJO]

Yes, to caring more about others than your own selfish needs and demands.

So let's ostracise all those nationalities that pose a higher risk of (insert metric here).
For the greater good.

Hey let's sterilise those with genetic defects for the greater good.

You know what let's push that group of people into gas ovens because yep greater good.

Covid represents a very small chance of dying or serious complications. Less so if you are vaccinated. You are on a collision course of basically saying "let them burn".
Pretty sure if they pay tax they have rights. Actually they have rights full stop.

Advocating for a form of vax apartheid isn't going to help anybody.
It just makes more people stand against your position and creates division.

 

[sptrawler]

It looks like we should get some good feedback on the experimental covid antiviral pill, Pfizer is allowing generic drug manufacturers to produce it, to enable countries struggling to get the vaccine access to the pill.

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

No Cookies

www.dailytelegraph.com.au

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11...id-pill-trial-89-per-cent-effective/100600146

 

[wayneL]

Google is your friend. Get educated. The understanding has moved on in the last year.

newsGP - Mounting evidence suggests COVID vaccines do reduce transmission

Since vaccines began rolling out across the world, many scientists have been hesitant to say they can reduce transmission of the virus.

www1.racgp.org.au

Covid: One dose of vaccine halves transmission - study

People who get coronavirus after their first jab are up to 49% less likely to pass it on, research suggests.

www.bbc.com

Covid-19: Moderna and Pfizer vaccines prevent infections as well as symptoms, CDC study finds

Vaccination with the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine reduces infections by 90%, while a single dose confers 80% protection, shows a study led by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) that followed essential workers through the worst months of the pandemic.1 The study is one of a...

www.bmj.com

I'm on the road working at the moment so I haven't got time to dig up articles but as Mo has pointed out the understanding has moved along even further.

Highly vaccinated areas have much high infection rates then what is indicated by some of the official articles around.

In fact it is generally well recognised now that recovery from infection offers a much greater protection than the vaccines. Therefore it does not make sense for anyone who has recovered from covid-19 to receive a vaccination and risk a vaccine injury.

I actually suspect that Mrs and I may have had the damn thing already very early in the piece (and I may go along one day and see if we have any antibodies to find out one way or the other).

The overarching point here is that you seem to have a deeply ideological approach to this... Comply or suffer penalties, whether they be actually financial by ostracisation.

My approach is not ideological at all. I don't care whether you are vaccinated or not and if you feel you should be, then by all means go ahead.

In fact the current law of the land is that vaccinations should be by informed consent, and not by force or coercion. I've laid out my position further up in this thread and my opinion stands despite the mental gymnastics of the likes of Rederob.

Furthermore as indicated, I reserve the right to change my opinion. If at some point I believe the risk reward adds up, with one of the current or any future vaccinations then I was certainly go ahead.

Boofheads calling me selfish or ignorant or any thing else, is not going to change my approach of analysing the available data to the best of my ability.

As a matter of fact I have many clients in the medical and scientific fraternity and in private conversations, there is not even a consensus there. Some jumped on board immediately with the vaccinations, others are either hesitant or vehemently against these particular injections.

I just want to make the best decision for myself and my family, bro... And yes that does fall within the context of the broader society as well.

This is why I have been happy to have every other goddamned injection known to man, as I have repeatedly said.

You should reflect deeply upon that, both in terms of actual data, and as it relates to the future of our Liberal democracy.

 

[IFocus]

So let's ostracise all those nationalities that pose a higher risk of (insert metric here).
For the greater good.

Hey let's sterilise those with genetic defects for the greater good.

You know what let's push that group of people into gas ovens because yep greater good.

Covid represents a very small chance of dying or serious complications. Less so if you are vaccinated. You are on a collision course of basically saying "let them burn".
Pretty sure if they pay tax they have rights. Actually they have rights full stop.

Advocating for a form of vax apartheid isn't going to help anybody.
It just makes more people stand against your position and creates division.

The unvaccinated hospitalised COVID cases run at around 10% of those that test positive and 20% of them end up in ICU.

Vaccinations see that change dramatically look at NSW for example however If people make the choice to be anti vax so be it.

But.

The hospital and staff are not only always at risk but then have to control the infection spread within the hospital.

What do you do about those that have underlying conditions or treatments (or treatments deferred due to COVID patients) that limit vax effectiveness?

 

[moXJO]

The unvaccinated hospitalised COVID cases run at around 10% of those that test positive and 20% of them end up in ICU.

Vaccinations see that change dramatically look at NSW for example however If people make the choice to be anti vax so be it.

But.

The hospital and staff are not only always at risk but then have to control the infection spread within the hospital.

What do you do about those that have underlying conditions or treatments (or treatments deferred due to COVID patients) that limit vax effectiveness?

A person vaxxed that had breakthrough infection is in fact infectious.
Hospital staff is at risk from a range of viruses already.


Unless you want foreheads timestamped with vaccination dates, as the vax only weakens over time at varying rates. We will revisit this problem anyway.

You simply won't vax everyone. My personal opinion doesn't matter. With the new treatments coming online, most can simply take a pill to avoid dying.

I don't believe in this ostracising to the point of isolation. When has that ever ended up going well?
Most people (and I've converted a few now to getting vaxxed) simply need discussion. Not these ridiculous "Satan pedo lizard people" conspiracies and accusations.

And lets be realistic, we are roughly at 90% first dose vaccinated. About 84ish% fully vaccinated.

My concern is people thinking that totalitarianism is what's going to fix the problem.

 

[bellenuit]

It's misleading as the vaccines protection wane over 9 months.

It's not misleading. Vaccines are proven to reduce transmission, which disproves Wayne's assertion. When the effectiveness of the vaccine wanes, then of course its ability to reduce transmission wanes. Hardly rocket science. That's why boosters are now being recommended.

There seems to be an assumption among some that if vaccines do not provide 100% protection and be effective for ever, they are not of any use. Vaccines are just one weapon among many in the fight against covid. It is fairly effective in preventing transmission (as per articles) and when its effectiveness wanes, get a booster.

 

[bellenuit]

In fact it is generally well recognised now that recovery from infection offers a much greater protection than the vaccines. Therefore it does not make sense for anyone who has recovered from covid-19 to receive a vaccination and risk a vaccine injury.

It is also recognised that a those who have recovered from COVID would be better protected if they are subsequently vaccinated than relying on natural immunity alone.

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021​

Summary​

What is already known about this topic?

Reinfection with human coronaviruses, including SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, has been documented. Currently, limited evidence concerning the protection afforded by vaccination against reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 is available.

What is added by this report?

Among Kentucky residents infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, vaccination status of those reinfected during May–June 2021 was compared with that of residents who were not reinfected. In this case-control study, being unvaccinated was associated with 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with being fully vaccinated.

What are the implications for public health practice?

To reduce their likelihood for future infection, all eligible persons should be offered COVID-19 vaccine, even those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection.

​

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19...

This report describes COVID-19 reinfection among vaccinated and unvaccinated persons in Kentucky.

www.cdc.gov

 

[IFocus]

You simply won't vax everyone. My personal opinion doesn't matter. With the new treatments coming online, most can simply take a pill to avoid dying.

And lets be realistic, we are roughly at 90% first dose vaccinated. About 84ish% fully vaccinated.

My concern is people thinking that totalitarianism is what's going to fix the problem.

New treatments are not here yet the problem is now and real that's being realistic, in WA indigenous vaccinations are way behind no where near 90% WA as a whole is also no where near 90% (we gave you lot our vaccines).

There are restrictions and mandates to try an cover the gaps until new treatments arrive no government will get elected running restrictions and mandates if they are not required (well maybe McGowan ??)

 

[bellenuit]

So let's ostracise all those nationalities that pose a higher risk of (insert metric here).
For the greater good.

Hey let's sterilise those with genetic defects for the greater good.

You know what let's push that group of people into gas ovens because yep greater good.

You are being silly.

Lots of our laws are designed for the greater good. Safety belts, speed limits, smoking in cars with young children present, polluting our rivers etc., And we already have vaccine requirements in relation to previous diseases that have been eradicated or mostly eradicated. Your arguments on that point are bordering on paranoia.

 

[cynic]

Whilst this may turn out to be, little more than, the evangelising of the already converted, here's some insight from JP:

 

[moXJO]

New treatments are not here yet the problem is now and real that's being realistic, in WA indigenous vaccinations are way behind no where near 90% WA as a whole is also no where near 90% (we gave you lot our vaccines).

There are restrictions and mandates to try an cover the gaps until new treatments arrive no government will get elected running restrictions and mandates if they are not required (well maybe McGowan ??)

No one has said ever "let's go to WA".
You guys are safe.

Indifference in WA is what is driving low vaccination, not qanon.

 

[moXJO]

You are being silly.

Lots of our laws are designed for the greater good. Safety belts, speed limits, smoking in cars with young children present, polluting our rivers etc., And we already have vaccine requirements in relation to previous diseases that have been eradicated or mostly eradicated. Your arguments on that point are bordering on paranoia.

I'm not calling to let people's homes burn down.
Vaccines without long-term studies is given a pass for paranoia. I'm not putting my faith in loony anti-antivaxxers if that's the sentiment.
And lots of terrible things were done in "The greater good".

Your train of thinking was the initial concern.

It's not misleading. Vaccines are proven to reduce transmission, which disproves Wayne's assertion. When the effectiveness of the vaccine wanes, then of course its ability to reduce transmission wanes. Hardly rocket science. That's why boosters are now being recommended.

There seems to be an assumption among some that if vaccines do not provide 100% protection and be effective for ever, they are not of any use. Vaccines are just one weapon among many in the fight against covid. It is fairly effective in preventing transmission (as per articles) and when its effectiveness wanes, get a booster.

The articles were based on old data and you failed to mention the length of time these actually last. Wayne was correct.

You said: "Google is your friend. Get educated. The understanding has moved on in the last year".

Yeah, well it's moved on from a few months ago. Don't throw up articles that don't prove a point.

 

[wayneL]

When ya house is burning down, the last thing ya gunna worry about is whether the firefighters are vaxed or not.
Just sayin.
Mick

I actually live very close to the East Swan Volunteer Bushfire Brigade Station.

This is the scenario these people are supporting, Mick

This is how we know that our society has collectively lost it's freaking mind over a flu.

Hypothetically if I was a vollie, I could be the very first person to respond, get the tenders out and and get to a fire.

Let's suppose my neighbour notices some nutter down in the Brigadoon bushland setting fires. She calls 000 to report it but also calls me because she knows that I am a vollie.

My response - sorry luv, I'm not allowed help you because I'm unvaccinated.

She goes, who cares? The bush is about to burn down and my house might be threatened.

Sorry darling, you're on your own. I could get arrested for saving your house.

 

[sptrawler]

No one has said ever "let's go to WA".
You guys are safe.

Indifference in WA is what is driving low vaccination, not qanon.

That is true, my daughter came home from work today and said she has to produce proof of vaccination, so I recommended she talk to our doctor as to which one.
She is 41, but I'm not convinced on which one would be better at this stage, so I'm recommending nothing see the Dr.

 

[rederob]

Highly vaccinated areas have much high infection rates then what is indicated by some of the official articles around.

No data, and ignores the fact that unless infection is endemic to a region then the infection rate remains zero. Simply put, a nonsense statement of itself.

In fact it is generally well recognised now that recovery from infection offers a much greater protection than the vaccines. Therefore it does not make sense for anyone who has recovered from covid-19 to receive a vaccination and risk a vaccine injury.

This is false.
It's also the case that further vaccinations act as a "booster" to those previously infected, as antibody response declines over time.

The overarching point here is that you seem to have a deeply ideological approach to this... Comply or suffer penalties, whether they be actually financial by ostracisation.

Rates of infection, hospitalisation and death are reduced by vaccination, so your claim that this is ideological is unsound. It makes sense for society and businesses to take reasonable steps to mitigate covid. If you want others to take responsibility but not yourself, then why should you expect equal treatment?

My approach is not ideological at all. I don't care whether you are vaccinated or not and if you feel you should be, then by all means go ahead.

You apparently do as you have railed against your so-described "ostracism" of those unvaccinated. If you were true to your word of not caring then you would not post as you have.

In fact the current law of the land is that vaccinations should be by informed consent, and not by force or coercion. I've laid out my position further up in this thread and my opinion stands despite the mental gymnastics of the likes of Rederob.

It's called logic which you seldom apply to your points. So when you say "vaccinations should be by informed consent, and not by force or coercion," you are correct. Except that you have not been able to separate this from the rights of businesses and other organisations to provide workplaces that are as safe as possible for their employees and those they interact with.

Furthermore as indicated, I reserve the right to change my opinion. If at some point I believe the risk reward adds up, with one of the current or any future vaccinations then I was certainly go ahead.

In other words the data which is unequivocal means nothing because your personal opinion is yours to change without reason.

Boofheads calling me selfish or ignorant or any thing else, is not going to change my approach of analysing the available data to the best of my ability.

Given unequivocal data the term "ignorant" becomes an objective statement.

I just want to make the best decision for myself and my family, bro... And yes that does fall within the context of the broader society as well.

"Society" has determined that vaccinations are the best decision. How is your stance not "selfish" in that context?

You should reflect deeply upon that, both in terms of actual data, and as it relates to the future of our Liberal democracy.

The fact you have had other injections is not relevant to the impact covid has on society. This point is not mental gymnastics, rocket surgery, or tricky.

 

[bellenuit]

The articles were based on old data and you failed to mention the length of time these actually last. Wayne was correct.

What difference does it make how long the transmission protection lasts. You can get a booster that renews its effectiveness. Wayne, who is rarely correct on anything, claimed they vaccines do not prevent transmission. Clearly wrong. And then you come up with the silly nonsense, that he is correct because the vaccine is not effective forever. That argument is just inane. Many of not most drugs only provide temporary protection and need to be retaken again and again.

And if you want newer data, here is the result of a study that is just 6 weeks old. But I doubt that matters to you.

Vaccinated people are less likely to spread Covid, new research finds

British scientists examined how the Pfizer-BioNTech and the AstraZeneca vaccines affected the spread of the virus if a person had a breakthrough infection.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[moXJO]

What difference does it make how long the transmission protection lasts. You can get a booster that renews its effectiveness. Wayne, who is rarely correct on anything, claimed they vaccines do not prevent transmission. Clearly wrong. And then you come up with the silly nonsense, that he is correct because the vaccine is not effective forever. That argument is just inane. Many of not most drugs only provide temporary protection and need to be retaken again and again.

And if you want newer data, here is the result of a study that is just 6 weeks old. But I doubt that matters to you.

Vaccinated people are less likely to spread Covid, new research finds

British scientists examined how the Pfizer-BioNTech and the AstraZeneca vaccines affected the spread of the virus if a person had a breakthrough infection.

www.nbcnews.com

Oh so the vaccines do work fine. So long as vaccinated people keep getting vaccinated it should be fine if the anti-vaxxers don't want to because the vaccines do in fact work. Well there you go.

We still don't know long term effects. A lot of the data is learn as you go. Hence the need now for booster shots. It was just the initial doses at the beginning. That has changed in a matter of months. People can assess the science as they please.

 

[IFocus]

No one has said ever "let's go to WA".
You guys are safe.

Indifference in WA is what is driving low vaccination, not qanon.

We have nutters making death threats at McGowan and his staff, today on the Old / New Mandurah bridge (SP will know where I mean) there was this f#@%&^^% holding a sign to join him at a freedom rally Parliament House.

Really had to fight the urge of doing everyone a favour by changing to 4x4 and running the f#@%&^^% over.

 

[IFocus]

 

[moXJO]

We have nutters making death threats at McGowan and his staff, today on the Old / New Mandurah bridge (SP will know where I mean) there was this f#@%&^^% holding a sign to join him at a freedom rally Parliament House.

Really had to fight the urge of doing everyone a favour by changing to 4x4 and running the f#@%&^^% over.

Is there some measures he has put in that copped backlash. I heard his home address and phone was released.

Like I said: " grind people down and they will fight back twice as hard". Probably not a good idea backing people into the wall and singling them out.

And if it were such a huge right leaning issue why is nsw seemingly fine?
They government made enough noises like they gave a sht. In reality they were just as bad.