Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Copper

Evidence for my theory "Copper is a strange one" -

Copper is unexpectedly getting cheaper
Why another boom in the key green-transition metal may not happen

n late june Robert Friedland, the bombastic boss of Ivanhoe, a Canadian miner, warned that the world was running the risk of a “train wreck”, when a crunch in copper supply would derail the energy transition. The metal is used in everything from wiring to wind turbines—and green mandates in America, Asia and Europe will soon demand many more of these. The price of copper, Mr Friedland suggested, could jump ten-fold in response.

Right now, however, the train is not so much derailed as chugging along happily. Having peaked at $10,700 a tonne in March last year, copper prices at the London Metal Exchange have dropped by around 10% since January, to $8,300 a tonne. Spot prices remain on par with or higher than those for delivery in three months, suggesting that investors do not expect them to bounce back soon. What is going on?

Because of its range of uses, which include construction, electronics and weaponry, copper prices indicate the health of the global economy, earning the metal the nickname “Dr Copper”. Worries about the economy may therefore be making investors gloomy about copper’s prospects. The post-covid rebound in China, which consumes as much as 55% of global supply, is already fading. Growth is also flagging in the West as rising interest rates bite.

Yet the lack-of-demand story does not fully explain the price fall. Despite the country’s construction slump, China is using 5% more copper this year than last, possibly because the metal—used to form cladding, pipes and roofs—tends to track building completions, which have held up, rather than housing starts. A 7% jump in the making of cooling units in anticipation of a hot summer also supports demand.

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If copper markets are decidedly cool, then, it is also because supply has risen. Over the winter a series of disruptions—from protests in Peru to floods in Indonesia—dented global production. Now these problems are easing. As a result, smelters are feeling confident enough to charge miners higher fees, indicating no shortage of raw materials (see chart 1).

At the same time, financial investors are snubbing copper. As interest rates rise, they prefer to hold cash-generating assets rather than commodities, which yield nothing. For much of this year “non-commercial” net positioning on copper-futures markets has been in the red, implying that more investors are betting prices will fall than recover (see chart 2). Yet today’s prices remain $2,500 a tonne above production costs at the marginal mine, notes Robert Edwards of cru, a consultancy. This implies that the recent correction has taken froth out of the market, rather than pushed prices too low, suggesting they could stay subdued for a while.

As the energy transition speeds up, it should give a jolt to demand. Sales of electric vehicles (evs), which are already rising, are expected to ramp up significantly in the coming years, and each unit contains three to four times more copper than its petrol-powered peer. Even in a scenario where the transition happens slowly, the International Energy Agency (iea), an official forecaster, estimates that copper demand from green uses, propelled by the ev boom and undersea cabling for wind farms, will nearly double by 2040.

Supply may struggle to keep up. The average age of the world’s ten biggest mines is 64, which is forcing miners to dig deep for ores of ever lower quality, making each new tonne of refined copper costlier to produce. New mines are scarce. Assuming all certain and probable projects go ahead, McKinsey, a consultancy, forecasts that supply will hit 30m tonnes by 2031, 7m tonnes short of estimated demand.

A severe crunch like that envisioned by Mr Friedland could still be avoided. Most forecasting models, including the iea’s, expect copper demand outside clean-energy uses to remain stable. Tom Price and Ben Davis of Liberum Capital, an investment bank, reckon this is unlikely, because China’s long building boom has probably ended. Pricey copper will also prompt substitution: some evs already use aluminium wiring. And McKinsey points out that new tech—if it achieves its potential—could close much of the supply gap this decade. There is time to avoid a train wreck.
 
@peter2 said;
Was thinking about adding to the small positions I have in two gold producers but last night's rally in the POG made the open prices gap above my limits. Strange night last night as both equities and gold rallied strongly after the CPI news. I'm pleased to see the price of copper sneaking higher as well.

Copper is showing signs of life now, here's a couple of charts with some guide lines on them.
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Thanks @DaveTrade I prefer the pitchfork guidelines to the fib thing(?).

I think the POC is going to be a challenge to monitor in the next year due to the slow growth in China. I don't doubt that the trend will be up but I do think it's going to be a very bumpy ride (consistent with corrective price action).
 
BEIJING, July 13 (Reuters) - China imported 449,649 metric tons of unwrought copper and copper products in June, down 16.4% from a year earlier, data from the General Administration of Customs showed on Thursday.

 
Another interesting article on copper's role in the energy transition.


In 10 years, copper will go down as one of the best investment decisions in history. Sprott aren't ahead of the game, it's a no brainer.

The only thing that might stop it is a total societal breakdown in Chindia, global conflict, or another way of transferring energy.
 
In 10 years, copper will go down as one of the best investment decisions in history. Sprott aren't ahead of the game, it's a no brainer.

The only thing that might stop it is a total societal breakdown in Chindia, global conflict, or another way of transferring energy.

Yes, as long as there is economic growth there will be increasing demand for copper as we move towards a world of electric vehicles and cleaner energy. Negative or slowing growth always throws a wet blanket over base metal prices but any recessions will be relatively short on a time horizon of 10 to 20 years. It will take a while to ramp up but electric vehicle production in the 2030s will be insane with half of global car sales predicted to be electric vehicles by 2035.

The real question is not demand but supply. Will copper mine production be able to ramp up to meet demand?
 
Yes, as long as there is economic growth there will be increasing demand for copper as we move towards a world of electric vehicles and cleaner energy. Negative or slowing growth always throws a wet blanket over base metal prices but any recessions will be relatively short on a time horizon of 10 to 20 years. It will take a while to ramp up but electric vehicle production in the 2030s will be insane with half of global car sales predicted to be electric vehicles by 2035.

The real question is not demand but supply. Will copper mine production be able to ramp up to meet demand?

All the EU new car makers have to go electric by 2035 ish, so that's a lot of cars. Chindianesia is another story. They don't really care.

All copper mines are getting older, deeper and lower grade. Hardly a new one to be seen. RIO has taken a pretty big punt on Oyu Tolgoi and BHP/RIO will eventually get Resolution going once the sacred cacti above the deposit gets sprinkled with enough cash. The US Gov might even step in and make it a national security priority at some point. Otherwise, there's not much chance of a change to the supply/demand train smash to hit us in a few years.
 
I'm not that sure/convinced about future certainty of EV's as seem to be exploding for unknown reasons - everyday there's a news report of EV's on fire ?
 
I'm not that sure/convinced about future certainty of EV's as seem to be exploding for unknown reasons - everyday there's a news report of EV's on fire ?

I think electric vehicles on a mass scale are inevitable for a number of reasons. Regarding exploding vehicles, I think the numbers are fairly small overall and will reduce over time as the technology is refined and improved.

This is a topic for another thread but apart from the reduced running costs and lower emissions I think there are many good geopolitical reasons for getting out from under the thumb of OPEC nations. Current countries in OPEC are Algeria, Angola, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, the Republic of the Congo, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Venezuela - not exactly a laundry list of countries with democratic values and great human rights records.

Electric vehicles will enable western nations to claw back more control over their economies and reduce the power of oil producing countries to hold the west hostage because oil is so critical to production, logistics, and economic growth.
 
Codalco, the worlds larget copper producer, is reviewing a possible downgrade of the state owned enterprise.
From Mining.com
1693530154635.png
It may seem a bit counterintuitive, but I reckon it will be good for copper.
if their costs are going up, production is down, something has to give.
Hopefully the price.
Mick
 
Codalco, the worlds larget copper producer, is reviewing a possible downgrade of the state owned enterprise.
From Mining.com
View attachment 161783
It may seem a bit counterintuitive, but I reckon it will be good for copper.
if their costs are going up, production is down, something has to give.
Hopefully the price.
Mick

I wonder how much influence the government has over this company? Not sure what % they own. But, could this be a good example of why governments should stay out of mining and business in general? $19 - 30b debt? Yikes.
 
Some good discussion on critical minerals here in general.

Copper from 17:00.


copper can be too essential ... the scrap dealers won't give me $10 ( Australian ) a kilo for my scrap copper accumulation ( and mine is already mined/out of the ground so is comparatively 'Green ' )
 
I'm going to put up some charts on Copper, after all, a price chart is the market. A price chart is the reality of the market, it shows what people have paid and when they paid that price. Technical analysis of price charts attempts to determine the trend of price and possible turning points.

I'll start with a naked monthly bar chart of price. It shows the big two year run up in price from the Mar2020 low to Mar2022 high then a pullback down to the Jul2022 low. Will the up trend continue from here or will Copper go down or sideways?
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First I'll look at the depth of the pullback, a 61.8% pullback is deeper than half way but not deep enough to rule out the chance of the up trend continuing.
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If I put Fib time&price lines on the pullback it can be seen that after the pullback the market broke through the 78.6% time&price line and has held above it, this is bullish.
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Now looking at the initial move up to the Jan2023 lower high after the pullback, it can be seen that price has so far held above the 76.8% time&price retracement line of the pullback and has held above the 76.8% time&price retracement line of the move up after the pullback. As long as the market price holds above this retracement line then I can view this market as holding it's bullish uptrend.
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I'm doing an 'edit' to throw in a weekly chart.
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