Asylum immigrants - Green Light

[noco]

This link proves devout Muslims who have migrated to Australia legally or illegally will never follow our laws, only there own. They are here for one reason only and that to infiltrate our society, just as what is happening to Sweden and inevitably in the rest of Europe. Just as communisn unsuccessfully tried to do in the 50's and 60's, Islam is doing now. They have no time table, so if it takes 100 years is of no concern to them.
They will set up their schools and mosques and be elected to Government to gain power.

http://www.disclose.tv/forum/can-a-devout-muslim-be-an-australian-new-zealander-american-t14298.

 

[sails]

Noco - the link you posted didn't work - I think the .html was missing.

Try this one: Can a devout Muslim be an Australian,New Zealander,American?

 

[noco]

Noco - the link you posted didn't work - I think the .html was missing.

Try this one: Can a devout Muslim be an Australian,New Zealander,American?

Thanks sails. Yes that is the one. I don't know what went wrong before.

 

[bellenuit]

This link proves devout Muslims who have migrated to Australia legally or illegally will never follow our laws, only there own.
http://www.disclose.tv/forum/can-a-devout-muslim-be-an-australian-new-zealander-american-t14298.

Noco, that raises an interesting question that I have often have difficulty with. If you were to ask a committed Christian would they place the state before their Christian God, I think most (of committed Christians) would answer No. They would act according to the tenets of their faith in preference to the requirements of the state.

However, although this could be viewed as little different to how committed Muslims would act, I think what differentiates committed Muslims from committed Christians is the actual tenets themselves.

If one were to take what is regarded as a controversial issue in Australia today, namely abortion, many Christians (of the RC persuasion in particular) see abortion as irreconcilable with their beliefs and will oppose any legislation that makes abortion legal. So you will have arguments as to whether RCs like Tony Abbott are beholden to their electorate or to Rome when it comes to discussions on such issues. However, controversial as the abortion issue may be, it does not threaten the core values that make Australia, Australia. If this is the most controversial issue we have to contend with in regards to the secular/religious divide, then things are OK IMO.

However, when it comes to the Islam, I believe the core values that define Islamic beliefs are fundamentally at odds with what makes Australia, Australia. We are not talking about peripheral issues that can be overcome with one side willing to go a bit more than half way, we are talking about issues that go to the heart of what makes Australian society the society that most of us want to live in.

When people are told that they cannot make certain assertions about the Islamic religion because that is seen as offensive, even though the assertions are made without animosity and backed up by verifiable argument, then our core value of freedom of expression is being attacked.

Not only is freedom of expression a core value of our society, but having freedom of expression means that as a society we will be intolerant of injustice wherever or whenever we see it. Why are those who express outrage of the Sudanese woman being whipped or the Iranian woman being sentenced to death by stoning or the Pakistani teens being acided because they didn't want to be married to old aged men, not Muslims, even though those outrages are closer to home for them, so to speak. Almost every Australian condemns directly, or through their representative media, the atrocities throughout the world that we find obnoxious to a civilised society, whether it be perpetrated by those we align to or oppose (with some exceptions). But when it comes to the crimes of Islamic societies, its adherents are most likely to be silent and the few that speak out are most likely to be ostracised than supported by their religious kin.

I have a few Muslim friends and we argue over these issues from time to time. What always strikes me is their demand for respect for their rights, but they never seem to see any need for them to respect the rights of others. The Koran always seems the final arbitrator. However, those I know are all fundamentally good people and contribute as much to Australia as any other immigrant I know. However, I really believe that their contribution will only be positive so long as they are a small minority of the population. I believe that should they ever attain sufficient power to change our society, we would lose so much that this would not be a country worth living in.

 

[Joe Blow]

I hate no one here but yes I despise bigotry, prejudice and xenophobia in all their various forms

Fair enough. However, I think this thread is getting a little too personal and I don't think it's helping the level of debate.

Just a general reminder to all to stick to the issues and keep things civil. I don't want this thread to get out of hand.

 

[noco]

Fair enough. However, I think this thread is getting a little too personal and I don't think it's helping the level of debate.

Just a general reminder to all to stick to the issues and keep things civil. I don't want this thread to get out of hand.

Thanks Joe Blow. Name calling does not hurt me in the least. If that is the only way some ASF members know how to intimdate and slience other AFS members opinion, then they have lost the plot.

 

[noco]

I suggested previously that Australia should consider withdrawing from the Refugee Convention as it was written for a post WWII scenario and is unsuited for the problems of today. However, as every country must do its share, we should double our refugee intake, but only of those who come on our terms. I am sure this would prove less costly than the current scenario and at the same time help twice as many people.

It seems that others are thinking along those lines. This from today's The Australian (it also debunks the myth that there are no queues):

He (Mirko Bagaric, a Deakin University law professor who spent five years as a member of the Refugee Review Tribunal) has proposed a dramatic solution: more than doubling the offshore refugee intake to 30,000 annually while at same time permanently refusing refugee status "to any person who arrives on our shores unannounced".

Jumping asylum queue pays off

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...m-queue-pays-off/story-fn59niix-1225975665987

After WW11, migrants who were allowed into Australia under the refugee convention were mainly English, German and Italian trades people with great skills and all made an outstanding contrbution to Australia. I know from personal experience, having worked with many of them.

What concerns me more so now is we have asylum seekers entering Australia illegally without skills and some with very little education and these people must become a burden on the Australian tax payer. How long will it take to educate and train these people to a useful standard and what will be the cost.

My main concern is the plot by the Islamic world to infiltrate into the Western World to force their ideology onto one and all here in Australia as it now appears to be happening in Sweden. And I might add they are doing it by intimidation.

 

[Vicki]

I have a few Muslim friends and we argue over these issues from time to time. What always strikes me is their demand for respect for their rights, but they never seem to see any need for them to respect the rights of others. The Koran always seems the final arbitrator. However, those I know are all fundamentally good people and contribute as much to Australia as any other immigrant I know. However, I really believe that their contribution will only be positive so long as they are a small minority of the population. I believe that should they ever attain sufficient power to change our society, we would lose so much that this would not be a country worth living in.

I've had similar experiences.
My nieghbours are muslims & in my part-time job I work for an islamic family.

Some of the most generous, giving people I know,.... as we've had hard times in recent years, & their extended family and community always includes us in their functions.
Also insist that we take top brand clothes & shoes for the girls [hand me downs from their daughters], some of these items had hardly been worn, as some of these families are very wealthy...My girls were wrapped!

Our fridge is always full with their home-cooking [can't pronounce the names of the dish's]

But there are some stark differences between our cultures.
I've noticed a very stern "It's their way or the highway" sort of attitude in regards to other religions or cultures.

Odd, because I know some of them are very happy to have their daughters safely over here, were our culture sees to it that they enjoy education & equility etc...Unlike some female family members born in islamic countries.
I have to do all their paper work at their business as these older girls can bearly read or write in any language....grade 3 I think.

Big difference when their teenage aussie-born daughters help out..Very intelligent, literate & articulate in two Languages.
Unfortunately for them though, there's still pressure to marry older guys from muslim states though...Australian men are just out of the question, unless they're from a similar family back-ground.

I've joked around a bit with them with regards to why nobody wants to live in some of these Islamic countries...And they laugh along and fully agree..

Anyway, that's my two bob's worth on the subject.

Vicki

 

[breaker]

Enjoy christmas day while you can...it might not be here much longer

 

[FxTrader]

Fair enough. However, I think this thread is getting a little too personal and I don't think it's helping the level of debate.

Just a general reminder to all to stick to the issues and keep things civil. I don't want this thread to get out of hand.

Go to see that you're monitoring this thread. Frankly Joe, I fail to see how the "level of debate" can get much lower given the views being expressed here.

The content of this thread is in essence promoting the prejudices, hatred and irrational fears of some here to the level of personal virtue. It panders to the more vile aspects of human character. In case you haven't noticed, a new theme has emerged around anti-Muslim sentiment now.

My question to you Joe is, at what point do you say enough is enough, where do you draw the line? Just how offensive, revolting, debasing and repugnant do the views in general chat have to be before you take action? Can extremists and extreme viewpoints of whatever variety post here without fear of censorship? How is the content of this thread in any way enhancing the reputation or standing of ASF? Why allow ASF to be a podium for the kind of views being expressed in this thread?

You need not be concerned about any further posts from me in this thread as I no longer wish to wallow in the cesspool of, and podium for, the promotion of bigotry and prejudice it has become.

 

[noco]

I've had similar experiences.
My nieghbours are muslims & in my part-time job I work for an islamic family.

Some of the most generous, giving people I know,.... as we've had hard times in recent years, & their extended family and community always includes us in their functions.
Also insist that we take top brand clothes & shoes for the girls [hand me downs from their daughters], some of these items had hardly been worn, as some of these families are very wealthy...My girls were wrapped!

Our fridge is always full with their home-cooking [can't pronounce the names of the dish's]

But there are some stark differences between our cultures.
I've noticed a very stern "It's their way or the highway" sort of attitude in regards to other religions or cultures.

Odd, because I know some of them are very happy to have their daughters safely over here, were our culture sees to it that they enjoy education & equility etc...Unlike some female family members born in islamic countries.
I have to do all their paper work at their business as these older girls can bearly read or write in any language....grade 3 I think.

Big difference when their teenage aussie-born daughters help out..Very intelligent, literate & articulate in two Languages.
Unfortunately for them though, there's still pressure to marry older guys from muslim states though...Australian men are just out of the question, unless they're from a similar family back-ground.

I've joked around a bit with them with regards to why nobody wants to live in some of these Islamic countries...And they laugh along and fully agree..

Anyway, that's my two bob's worth on the subject.

Vicki

A great story Vicki which adds to my belief that if they are not willing to marry an Australian and intergrate into the Austraian way of life, does that not mean they are and always will be a sectarian society and not multiculutral?

I have no doubt what you are saying they are nice people who love living in Australia (who wouldn't) and are pleased to have that protection for their daughters , but they must all study the Koran and pray 5 times a day. If they don't follow the teachings of the Koran, they can and will be persecuted by their elders no matter where they live. Could you ask the question why they won't marry Australian men. I would appreciate your follow through on this matter with your Muslim friends and indeed look forward to your response. I am most genuinely interested. If I am wrong, I will apologise.

When the English, Italian and German immigrants came to Australia after WW11, they were a multicultural race who were prepared to marry and interact with Australians.

 

[noco]

From information I have learned from Google, there appears to be at least three catagories of the Islamic faith.

a) the Extremist who misinterpret the Koran and are hell bent on using what ever means they have to intimidate the non believers with suicide bombings of public transport, buildings or public gatherings. They kill and maim innocent men, women wnd children and claim responsobility for their indecent act.

b) the moderate who are true believers of the Koran and are content to follow the teachings without being extreme or violent.

c) the moderate who are not true believers but follow the Koran because of the fear of persecution if they don't.

Which brings me back to the point of these illegal asylum seekers. Of the 6000 odd who have arrived in the last two years, how many belong to the Islamic faith and to which category do they belong? a),b) or c).

Having lived through the threat of Hitler's Third Reich Nazi regime, the threat of a Japanese invasion in 1942 and the communist infiltration of Australia in the 50's and 60's, I believe I am justified in fearing the rise of Islam and what this great country of ours will be like in 10, 20 or 50 years from now.

To be branded a bigot, spreading fear and xenophobia does not concern me in the least. What does concern me is how Islam will affect my children, grand children and great grand children in the future.

 

[pixel]

From information I have learned from Google, there appears to be at least three catagories of the Islamic faith.

a) the Extremist who misinterpret the Koran and are hell bent on using what ever means they have to intimidate the non believers with suicide bombings of public transport, buildings or public gatherings. They kill and maim innocent men, women wnd children and claim responsobility for their indecent act.

b) the moderate who are true believers of the Koran and are content to follow the teachings without being extreme or violent.

c) the moderate who are not true believers but follow the Koran because of the fear of persecution if they don't.

Which brings me back to the point of these illegal asylum seekers. Of the 6000 odd who have arrived in the last two years, how many belong to the Islamic faith and to which category do they belong? a),b) or c).

Having lived through the threat of Hitler's Third Reich Nazi regime, the threat of a Japanese invasion in 1942 and the communist infiltration of Australia in the 50's and 60's, I believe I am justified in fearing the rise of Islam and what this great country of ours will be like in 10, 20 or 50 years from now.

To be branded a bigot, spreading fear and xenophobia does not concern me in the least. What does concern me is how Islam will affect my children, grand children and great grand children in the future.

Well put, noco;
And I think you're 75% correct. Why only 75%? Because I'd like to add a category
d) consisting of well-educated, usually professional men and women, who live by the spirit of the Q'ran, but recognise the strict rules about forbidden food, prescribed gymnastics, and hating all non-muslims for what they are: Rules reflecting needs and attitudes of the times long past.

Why were Jews and Arabs in ancient times told not to eat pork and mussels? Because they "go off" very quickly and can cause food poisoning. In an environment without refrigeration, it's far easier to cloak some basic hygienic truths in pious mumbo-jumbo than educate the uneducated masses of the time.
Unfortunately, today's uneducated masses, by sticking to their ancient lifestyle, deny their children any chance of advancement, so they still can't afford a fridge and have to stick to those superseded rules - a vicious circle that keeps them trapped.

Likewise, if you tell them to get off their donkey and do some pushup exercises - who will listen? But tell them they have to do the same bums-and-push-ups five times a day as a prayer routine - that might just work.
Those who opened their eyes to modern times, surely realised the benefits of doing sport, working out in gyms, at suitable times NOT restricted by ancient strait jackets.

Once in their lives, the tribesmen of old were also told to broaden their horizon and visit Mecca: What a brilliant campaign to promote tourism!
But in today's age, don't forget to visit other places: Rome, London, Chennai, Beijing, Yokohama! Open your eyes and see that we're all HUMANS! Many of my friends, who grew up with the Islamic or Jewish faith, have married German or Australian women and fall into category d)

In the Stone Age, defending a tribe's possession of a patch of moist dirt in an otherwise arid desert may have improved the tribe's chances of survival. Keeping their women subjugated and do horrible things to them if they seemed attracted to a hunk from another tribe - yeah, it also improved the survival chances; not of the fittest, but who needs to be fit if every bumpkin is guaranteed an afterlife of eternal bliss - as long as he has "faith" and believes in promises of Paradise, reinforced by threats of Hell as the only alternative.
Calling such a blinkered mindset "Culture" is a blatant misnomer. Accepting intolerant and hostile attitudes in the name of tolerance and liberal multiculturalism, is turning the very same compassion, tolerance, and liberty against ourselves. Unless we recognise the perversion and work towards equal education and integration of all newcomers, our acceptance of all comers, no questions asked, no allegiance to Australia first, everything else therafter, can only end in self-destruction.

If anybody would like to get a handle on the background of religious beliefs, maybe even reconcile divergent views, I strongly recommend you get hold of a copy of Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land". To me, it's been an absolute eye opener. And it is amazing, how easy it becomes afterwards to "grok" another person's upbringing and maintain friendship with Indians, Chinese, Persians ...
Of course it requires mutual respect and tolerance from both sides.

 

[Dukey]

From information I have learned from Google, there appears to be at least three catagories of the Islamic faith.

a) the Extremist who misinterpret the Koran and are hell bent on using what ever means they have to intimidate the non believers with suicide bombings of public transport, buildings or public gatherings. They kill and maim innocent men, women wnd children and claim responsobility for their indecent act.

b) the moderate who are true believers of the Koran and are content to follow the teachings without being extreme or violent.

c) the moderate who are not true believers but follow the Koran because of the fear of persecution if they don't.

Which brings me back to the point of these illegal asylum seekers. Of the 6000 odd who have arrived in the last two years, how many belong to the Islamic faith and to which category do they belong? a),b) or c).

Having lived through the threat of Hitler's Third Reich Nazi regime, the threat of a Japanese invasion in 1942 and the communist infiltration of Australia in the 50's and 60's, I believe I am justified in fearing the rise of Islam and what this great country of ours will be like in 10, 20 or 50 years from now.

To be branded a bigot, spreading fear and xenophobia does not concern me in the least. What does concern me is how Islam will affect my children, grand children and great grand children in the future.

I would much rather hear someone say " I'm am concerned by the rise of fundamentalism - of any creed"...

as far as I'm concerned fundamentalist christians are just as dangerous as anyone. Or even fundamentalist politicians or nationalists like that Nth korean D!c&head.

If you were to visit the asylum seeker prisons (and they ARE essentially prisons - lets not make it pretty with political correct words like 'detention centres' - detention was what i got when i didn't do my homework at school!) .... but if you were to check i suspect you might find that very few asylum seekers are fundamentalists of any kind. much more likely - the reason they left their country was that they refused to be 'fundamental enough' for the regime (ie taliban or the like), making then a walking target.

Asylum seekers are no-ones enemy.
asylum seekers are NOT illegal. - (ie. it is not illegal to seek asylum).
Australias share of asylum seekers is very small.
The ones I've seen work harder than the whatever significant percentage of useless dole bludgers that we carry through their charmed life in this country.

Fundamentalist islam is a definite threat. but waging war on all of islam would be madness, as would be assuming all muslims are crazy fundamentalists.
We need moderate muslims on our side - and branding them as 'dangerous' etc will not help.

Anyway - I'm not gonna get into an argument or waste any more of my christmas eve on this ... but thats my opinion... for what it's worth.
-D

.... Merry X-mas all.

 

[Vicki]

I have no doubt what you are saying they are nice people who love living in Australia (who wouldn't) and are pleased to have that protection for their daughters , but they must all study the Koran and pray 5 times a day. If they don't follow the teachings of the Koran, they can and will be persecuted by their elders no matter where they live. Could you ask the question why they won't marry Australian men. I would appreciate your follow through on this matter with your Muslim friends and indeed look forward to your response. I am most genuinely interested. If I am wrong, I will apologise.

Hi guys,
Spoke with my muslim freinds today & ran some of the q's past them/her.

O.k. where do I start?..[This's in Her words]..An Albanian Muslim women..who had an arranged marrage at 16...a happy one.

Aussie men are defenately out of the question, because they don't share their values.

In their case, being of Albanian decent, any male suiter has to be from Albanian stock & also a family they know & respect.

The mans family ask permission from the females family for their consent to Marrage.
I think the aussie-born girls do get a bit of a say who they choose ultimately.
But, there is still considerable pressure from the family [Father,Males etc.]

If permission is given, then the couple can date for a year whilst being shaparoned.
No sex etc.
The female can't even enter the males family home before marrage.

They have a HUGE wedding, lots of money & gifts, [I've seen it,30k wring] which is paid for by the grooms family, whilst the brides family pay only for their guests.

After marrage, it is tradition for the bride to live with the grooms family [they have massive homes].

Now an Interesting twist I found out today.
My muslim friends' oldest daughter seiv', 17, was asked for marrage by another family, who later changed their mind, [because the brides family had a little disagreement regarding her age & start'n a family, which is expected within a year.]

Well, rather than being kept apart, the couple, who appeared to be in love, kind of eloped...In their eyes....Because they ran off to Sydney for a weekend.

After the copping of abuse from both sides when they got back, 'cause they assumed they had sex....They were promptly married...NO CHOICE!!!!

And the brides family had to pay for everything [a 250k wedding], on top of the 'diary', maybe as punishment?

The daughter now lives with her husbands family.

Now religion....

They fast during ramadan & Byraam...they believe in Abraham same as us.
Some choose to Visit Mecca, which I think is required at least once.

They fast, among other reasons, to clense their bodies etc.
Some in their community will have a goat butchered by someone with the correct credentials & rituals etc. & share this amongst the community, especially less fortunate families.

They don't prey at work, as I have witnessed with another muslim collegue.
But, all family members at home, are expected to several times a day.

Another observation whilst in their home, after tak'n my shoes off, the women are litterally ordered around by any male member of the family...Get me a drink..get this get that, do this, do that!

Anyway, hope that helps.

Vicki
p.s.If Australia continues with a large imigration policy. then like it or not, we're just going to have to embrace such cultures & eventually become less of a majority.

 

[Julia]

Vicki, if you ask your Muslim friends why they came to Australia, what do they say?

i.e. Australia is a long way from Albania. What was the attraction?

And if you were further to ask them whether they believe they need to adopt the Australian way of life if they are to truly be accepted here, what would be their response?

 

[Julia]

You need not be concerned about any further posts from me in this thread as I no longer wish to wallow in the cesspool of, and podium for, the promotion of bigotry and prejudice it has become.

Quite astonishing how FX's lack of insight does not allow him to perceive the irony of the above statement in how it applies to the intolerance he shows toward his fellow Australians.

Prejudice is not confined to any particular group. Extremism exists in all directions.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Go to see that you're monitoring this thread. Frankly Joe, I fail to see how the "level of debate" can get much lower given the views being expressed here.

The content of this thread is in essence promoting the prejudices, hatred and irrational fears of some here to the level of personal virtue. It panders to the more vile aspects of human character. In case you haven't noticed, a new theme has emerged around anti-Muslim sentiment now.

My question to you Joe is, at what point do you say enough is enough, where do you draw the line? Just how offensive, revolting, debasing and repugnant do the views in general chat have to be before you take action? Can extremists and extreme viewpoints of whatever variety post here without fear of censorship? How is the content of this thread in any way enhancing the reputation or standing of ASF? Why allow ASF to be a podium for the kind of views being expressed in this thread?

You need not be concerned about any further posts from me in this thread as I no longer wish to wallow in the cesspool of, and podium for, the promotion of bigotry and prejudice it has become.

As a person who is favour of migration to Australia I find your classification of those at the other extreme from you, as offensive, as you find them.

I personally will be pleased not to have to read your thoughts on this thread.

gg

 

[Vicki]

Hi Julia,
I'll run it by them, as they're a pretty straight talk'n mob.

I know bits & pieces about their history.
There was a lot of civil unrest, fighting violence & segregation in that part of the world I think?..[From what I know it's sounds like basket case].

When they came oz. 30 odd yrs ago, I'm pretty sure they had absolutely noth'n...apart from their own community?

They all lived together, bought land in Dandenong Vic. & started a nursury, which the extended family still runs...They now have 6 florist shops [one of which I'm a part of],

On top of that, they own shops at tullamarine airport, nummerous properties & acerage holdings & still continueing.

The buggers work 6-7 days a week [women as hard or harder than the men], babies are looked after by grandparents or similar during the days, & if you have the 'flu'....tough, keep work'n!

As for what we think of them?...Their attitude is a little crude, but they don't care..
In their eye's, we're just a bunch of rowdy whinging disorganised & sometimes amoral people!

Yes I know, you have to just bight your tongue sometimes, when you're work'n for'm!

But sometimes Fatima, is curious about our life-styles, [when her husband isn't around] He's off driving his new Ferarri..no b.s...He made me sit in it..it's rediculous, but it's his choice.

That's when she lets her hair down a little, when she sees the way us aussie women joke 'round, even with the male employees in shopping centre, & the occaisional naughty joke that makes her blush...lol

These women, are machines, that seldom have time for fun, just work work work, then cook, sometimes whilst she's at work...I **** you not!

Anyway, I'll ask her your specific Q's when I see her next.

Vicki

 

[Joe Blow]

My question to you Joe is, at what point do you say enough is enough, where do you draw the line? Just how offensive, revolting, debasing and repugnant do the views in general chat have to be before you take action? Can extremists and extreme viewpoints of whatever variety post here without fear of censorship? How is the content of this thread in any way enhancing the reputation or standing of ASF? Why allow ASF to be a podium for the kind of views being expressed in this thread?

I draw the line at overt hatemongering. I'm fairly liberal minded and I don't censor views based on whether or not I agree with them. I step in only when personal attacks/insults are thrown around or when someone is espousing particularly hateful views. Otherwise I'm fairly hands off in the General Chat forum.

I like to encourage robust discussion and sometimes that involves unpopular or minority views being expressed, on both sides of the political spectrum. So just because I tolerate a lot of what is expressed in threads on ASF it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with or approve of particular points of view. It just means that I think people have a right to express them.