Asylum immigrants - Green Light

[Julia]

FX, don't talk crap that I have a hatred for other human beings. I brought a lady from a very poor country nearly 30 years ago to give her a better way of life from the misery she experienced. Over those years I have sponsered her two sisters and a brother who are also enjoying a better life than they had. It cost me, not the Government, plenty and I have no regrets.

Goodonya, noco. I have worked with immigrants/refugees for nearly two decades tutoring them in English, totally voluntarily.

So FX, you are absolutely out of line in suggesting that those of us who advocate an orderly migration into this country should be described by your variously pejorative labels. I have previously said that you are saying way more about yourself by using these insulting terms than about the people to whom you are directing the insults.

It is great to hear stories like this noco. My Dad helped out a teenager in a similar situation about 30 years ago. A military dictator's goons had killed most of his family and had threatened to kill him as well. Dad sponsored him and helped him to stay in Australia. He ended up going to Uni, getting honours in his undergrad and finishing his MBA. He is now successfully self-employed and a fantastic survivor. The kind of stories you don't hear much about these days.

So good to hear, GL. You're right in that we don't hear enough of these success stories, in a similar way to how we don't hear about all the immensely successful indigenous people who are such a credit to their people.

If by "ultra left rhetoric" you mean having compassion, empathy and some regard for disadvantaged and desperate people then guilty as charged. The only "insults" (accurate descriptors in my view) are directed at those who deserve nothing better given their ultra right rhetoric. Unlike others here, I don't take pleasure in demonizing and denigrating asylum seekers.

You instead seem to take pleasure in demonising and denigrating your fellow Australians and ASF members, many of whom have made substantial contributions to refugees. You display that zealous, overblown rhetoric, so devoid of objective consideration which does so much to diminish your cause.

This thread is not a discussion Julia, it's a beat up and rant against desperate human beings who are not in a postition to defend themselves here

The only person who is engaging in a 'beat up' and who is ranting is yourself.
It would otherwise be a rational and reasonable discussion. You have only yourself to blame for the essence of the discussion being lost amongst your flamboyant and insulting ranting.

My personal asylum seeker experience:

A few years ago when the Howard Government had its hard line Asylum seeker policy I felt sorry for the refugees and decided that I would do something, in a small way, to show that not all Australians wee uncaring, uncompassionate people. So I made contact through some organisation with a refugee living in Sydney. I picked him up from where he was living in Cabramatta one day and took him on a family BBQ. He was from a Middle Eastern country (I can't even remember which one now - I think it was Iraq). The gentleman had been refused permission to stay and was appealing the decision and I think the whole process had been going on for a few years and he was able to live in the community while it was going on.

We had a pleasant time but the thing that surprised me was when he told me that he had a son who was living here already as a permanent resident. The son was 35 and had six children. When I asked what his son did I was told "nothing". I thought there must have been a physical reason for this but when I asked about that I was told that, no, there was none. I think that what surprised me the most was he gave me the impression that his son wasn't going to be getting a job. 35 years of age, 6 kids, no job, no intention of getting one - not good.

That was my first and last experience as a bleeding heart.

And there are many more such similar stories. Hence why people cross many countries and take great risks to seek asylum in this welfare driven country.

Maybe Fx Trader could open his house to a few refugees,

Now there's a very reasonable suggestion, FX. Are you prepared to house some of these people in your own home? A simple yes or no would be appropriate.

our welfare should go to our own no others who wont assimilate

Yes, and it's shameful the numbers of Australians who are homeless and destitute.
We cannot provide accommodation, meals and medical care for them apparently.

But a multicultural society is overall a good thing, and I think most Australians are in favour of immigration at reasonable levels. It's just the denial of "a fair go" which pushes back the applications of those who have applied to come here through proper channels because of the boat arrivals which is so offensive to many of us.

 

[Tightwad]

"If you want to become an instant millionaire in this country, simply get yourself wrongfully detained in one of our comfortable detention centers for a while and then get one of our many bleeding heart lawyers to kick up a fuss. It’s easy!"

Yeah those detention centres have been one big party... those detained can't handle the stress, they are cutting themselves and self-harming, mental illness is the norm, many suicidal. Staff have had problems handling the stress from seeing their misery, and have quit.

How does one get themselves wrongfully detained anyhow?

 

[FxTrader]

So FX, you are absolutely out of line in suggesting that those of us who advocate an orderly migration into this country should be described by your variously pejorative labels. I have previously said that you are saying way more about yourself by using these insulting terms than about the people to whom you are directing the insults.

Your lack of insight and misrepresentation here is surprising. I never said that orderly migration is undesirable, just unrealistic, it can only ever be a goal. As I said, the descriptive terms I've used to describe the comments and attitudes exhibited by certain individuals here are largely well deserved. Labeling them as insults does not diminish their accuracy or appropriateness given what has been said.

You instead seem to take pleasure in demonising and denigrating your fellow Australians and ASF members, many of whom have made substantial contributions to refugees. You display that zealous, overblown rhetoric, so devoid of objective consideration which does so much to diminish your cause.

Pure nonsense, I denigrate and demonize no one, they denigrate and diminish themselves with their own comments here. How amusing, "devoid of objective consideration" is exactly what you and the other fortress Australia advocates here are guilty of.

The only person who is engaging in a 'beat up' and who is ranting is yourself.
It would otherwise be a rational and reasonable discussion. You have only yourself to blame for the essence of the discussion being lost amongst your flamboyant and insulting ranting.

Excuse me but there is nothing rational or reasonable about the zenophobia, jingosim, rabid nationalism and prejudice on display in this thread. The "essence" of the discussion is bigotry and prejudice and that is definitely not lost here.

Now there's a very reasonable suggestion, FX. Are you prepared to house some of these people in your own home? A simple yes or no would be appropriate.

Really Julia, do you actually think that I would fall for such a trap? If I say no you would then try and accuse me of hypocrisy, but if I say yes then you would command me to action. While I do give money to overseas charities, what I or you would do in our own home is frankly irrelevant. It's how our country responds to the challenge as a nation that matters.

 

[financialdonk]

I'm sure most will agree that to give genuine asylum seekers a chance to carry on a normal, productive life is a moral responsibility, but it's a short step from the sublime to the ridiculous.

I moved to Brissy from London nearly 3 years ago because I didn't want to bring my kids up in a place that was rapidly being over-run by economic migrants, spongers and downright criminals who's first and last words of English are 'Asylum' and 'Benefit'.

London is rapidly going down the pan because of a combination of ridiculous European legislation that opened the floodgates, and the fact that it is just plain bloody difficult to tell who is genuine and who is a crook.

I'm proud to have become an Australian citizen last week, and I would hate to see this fantastic country fall into the same trap. Better to be conservative with the nations compassion and go to whatever lengths are necessary to ensure the right people are getting the help they need, than to risk the whole country suffering because a few politicians don't want to be criticised for being harsh.

Welcome to Australia, with your nice white skin, walking in off the tarmac.

Pot.Kettle.Black.

Why is ok for your to migrate to Australia when you come from a nation that is politically stable and a part of the first world but not for people who are leaving a war torn area?

Your reason for leaving Britain to come to Australia is the flimsiest excuse I have ever heard mate. But don't worry you'll fit right in here with your racist views masquerading as political philosophy.

It's cases like yours that are flooding Australia's immigration numbers in the 10's of thousands. Not the 6k people who are trying to save their wives and children's lives.

(For the record I think you should be able to move freely wherever you wish as I desire that flexibility myself and as such I hope you continue to enjoy Australia. But to deny that right to others is poor form.)

 

[IFocus]

For me, there are two seperate issues. The first is the people that profit from this - the 'people smugglers'. They are breaking the law and endangering lives. They should be found and prosecuted.

The second issue is those they smuggle. People attach all sorts of labels to these people (religion, economic etc), without knowing a great deal about them beyond the broad stereotypes. For me, if they're desperate enough to spend days or weeks in a dodgy looking boat on open ocean (and bring their wives and young children along for the ride), they've probably got a good reason. Why else would they risk their lives?

Do they all have grounds for asylum? I don't know. What I do know is that people who have so much in life and have so little information about the situation shouldn't be so quick to judge.

Far to sensible comments for a thread like this Doc

 

[Tink]

Aaaah finally some balance in these threads : )

Great to hear your input Chiasm

 

[Mofra]

Obviously they are smarter than Mofra. If they come by air with passport and visa, they can be identified and tracked. Come by boat without any ID and BINGO they will most likely get through.

Thanks for the laugh, that's the funniest thing I've read for ages Noco *Thumbs Up*

Sad thing is, there are actually people out there dumb enough to believe that (the same ones who tend to ignore the fact that S11 aside, the major purpetrators of terrorist violence or hate are citizens of the country they reside in - including 100% of those charged in Australia).

 

[sails]

Thank you for sharing your story, Chiasm...

From that story, it seems you were one of the genuine refugees arriving by boat.

I think you will find that most raising concerns here at ASF regarding the increasing numbers of boat people have empathy for genuine refugees. It is the apparent loopholes that anyone can destroy their papers and get set for life in Australia even if they are not a refugee.

I believe that most genuine refugees such as yourself do welcome the opportunities in Australia and strive to be financially independent. It is often the genuine hardship of the past that seems to build a strength of character to press on an become very successful.

However, IMO those that are not genuine are more likely to be coming here simply for the handouts and are not so likely to contribute to the economy. They are more likely to become a burden on taxpayers who currently cannot look after our own homeless and destitute.

I am not against letting refugees come here. I would like to see the loopholes closed that so easily let anyone in and there have been reports from the UN that those that who are not genuine are now clogging the system and actually making it difficult for the genuine refugees to come.

Chiasm, how would you have felt if you couldn't be taken into Australia in your time of need because of illegals rorting the loopholes caused by such a lax border policy?

I would be very interested to hear your viewpoint on this...

 

[Mofra]

My family and I came to Australia via boat as refugees, fleeing civil war. I always read comments on forums like this and wonder how many people commenting have ever been persecuted in their own country. I'm not talking about being a collingwood supporter, but actually having some of your family members killed and threatened with death. That's what happened with my family. My brothers and I are all professionals now and we all pay lots of taxes so that's at least 1 success story.

If anyone is interested Anh Do wrote an easy to read book, the happiest refugee telling his story about coming to Australia. His brother by the way was young Australian of the year a few years ago for helping homeless youths...another success story

Thanks for your contribution chiasm (Much respect to for Doctor's mature and sentible contribution).

It is interesting that so many people demonise or try and dehumanise asylum seekrs, and thne try and claim economic factors as the reason "they're all buldegers living off wlefare, etc etc."

Then they go on to admire the most expensive processing option available, the Pacific solution, and talk the Liberals up for their policies. If money is the issue, why the most expensive solution? Much of Howard's efforts in "stopping the boats" related directly to the domestic situation in Sri Lanka and the ceasefire between the Tamils & the Sri Lankan government. Two of the three largest sources of asylum seekers are Iraq & Afghanistan - two areas best by wars that Howard pushed for, again at great economic cost.
If the economic argument was applied, why not discuss the increase in taxpayers as a proportion of our aging population? If we can cast aspersions on all people as beign "blidgers" on the basis of a single anecdote, why can't someone also mention that our richest person (Frank Lowy) was also a refugee?

I wonder at what point some of the hard right will actually admit that fear and xenophobia are actually contribution factors in many of their arguments? I may not agree with the manner of some of FX's posts on this thread (although to be fair he has been baited & insulted just as readily) but there are many poiints he has made that have not yet been countered.

And I will restate, for the record, this is an area both governments have failed in - without any sort of regional cooperation (and as a priority, closer ties with Indonesia) the will be no solution, nor any real progress, in managing the issue.

 

[Calliope]

Thanks for your insightful and intelligent critique, just what I expect from the red neck brigade here.

You don't have to be a redneck to recognize hum-bug. There is no solution to the boat problem until we short circuit the smugglers and process their customers at the point of departure and fly the genuine ones into Australia.

Of course a lot of cushy jobs on Christmas Island would have to be transferred to places that are not as pleasant.

 

[noco]

Now there's a very reasonable suggestion, FX. Are you prepared to house some of these people in your own home? A simple yes or no would be appropriate.

Julia, did you really believe you would receive an appropriate answer from a MONOMANIAC.

The brother of my lady I sponsered in 1990 was given a two year computer/computer course, was fed and clothed during that time at my expense. I doubt FX could ever come close to any of that feat.

Typical hype, criticism and an attempt to discredit those who do good things but do nothing themselves.

 

[Chris45]

Yeah those detention centres have been one big party... those detained can't handle the stress, they are cutting themselves and self-harming, mental illness is the norm, many suicidal.

Nothing gets the gullible bleeding-hearts jumping up and down with anguish more than the sight of a “refugee”, looking as miserable as possible, clutching the wire fence with his lips sewn together.

But remember, every day many people, especially young people, willingly “self-mutilate” by having metal rings, studs and dumbbells pierce their lips, tongues, noses, nipples, navels and other parts I won’t mention, all in the name of fashion. (Anyone for a “Prince Albert”?). Maybe sewing lips is not such a big deal once you overcome the fear of it.

You’d no doubt be horrified if a story emerged that “refugees” were continually stabbing themselves with needles, but people willingly endure this process every day in tattoo parlors.

 

[Chris45]

This is the sort of thing that concerns some of us about Muslim “asylum seekers”:

The latest WikiLeaks revelation: 1 in 3 British Muslim students back killing for Islam and 40% want Sharia law

A survey of 600 Muslim students at 30 universities throughout Britain found that 32 per cent of Muslim respondents believed killing in the name of religion is justified. A U.S. diplomatic cable from January 2009 quoted a poll by the Centre for Social Cohesion as saying 54 per cent wanted a Muslim party to represent their world view in Parliament and 40 per cent want Muslims in the UK to be under Sharia law.

The outreach plan for British Muslims was published a month after a cable that revealed that while the community had grown to more than 2 million, unemployment rates were higher among Muslim men and women than in any other religion.

Muslims were also found to have the highest disability rates - with 24 per cent of men and 21 per cent of women claiming a disability - while the cable also cited statistics claiming Muslims were also the most likely group to be unavailable for work or not actively seeking employment due to illness, their studies or family commitments.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

I have hesitated from entering this thread as I have many friends who have migrated both through traditional and "boat" means and am aware that emotion may sometimes overcome common sense.

This I believe has happened to the Fairfax Media and "the Monthly" ( should it be called PMT?) in their relentless push for an open acceptance of refugees from the north.

The basic issue that most native born Australians have with illegal boat migration has bugger all to do with where they come from, who they are or what their religion is.

We are a Non-Asian-Pacific nation in an Asia-Pacific region.

Darwin and Townsville were bombed during WW2 by the Japs.

There is a genuine fear of unregulated migration from the countries north of Australia to our shores.

This is particularly felt by populations living in Queensland, NT and WA, as during WW2 a plan was hatched in case of invasion to defend Australia along the Brisbane Line. (Google it if you read the Age or the PMT)

This is a natural and reasonable fear not addressable by logic or argument, and it needs to be respected.

gg

 

[FxTrader]

We are a Non-Asian-Pacific nation in an Asia-Pacific region.

Asia Pacific is about an arbitrary geographic region not skin colour or ethnicity.

There is a genuine fear of unregulated migration from the countries north of Australia to our shores.

Since nobody here is advocating for "unregulated migration" and this will never likely occur any such fear can hardly be genuine or justified.

This is a natural and reasonable fear not addressable by logic or argument, and it needs to be respected.

Xenophobia is never reasonable or natural. It is however taught, promoted and fostered by those who wish to manipulate opinion, others and create prejudice. Rather than being respected, it needs to countered and opposed vigorously or it will be used as justification for oppression, hatred and violence.

 

[noco]

Asia Pacific is about an arbitrary geographic region not skin colour or ethnicity.


Since nobody here is advocating for "unregulated migration" and this will never likely occur any such fear can hardly be genuine or justified.


Xenophobia is never reasonable or natural. It is however taught, promoted and fostered by those who wish to manipulate opinion, others and create prejudice. Rather than being respected, it needs to countered and opposed vigorously or it will be used as justification for oppression, hatred and violence.

FX, I would like to nominate you as our representative to tour as many Muslim countries as you can and preach your counter xenophobia to the radical Muslims who have a hatred for the Western World. Tell them to stop their violence. Tell them to stop killing and maiming men, woman and children. Tell them to cease stoning their woman for minor offenses. Tell them to stop manipulating and destroying the Christian faith. Tell them to love infidels instead of wanting to kill them as written in Koran. Get them to respect the Western World as you say it needs to be countered and opposed vigorously . Stop their predudice.
Do this FX and I'm sure we will have a more peaceful and stable world. Good luck in your attempt. If your game of course!!!!!

 

[IFocus]

Thanks for your contribution chiasm (Much respect to for Doctor's mature and sentible contribution).

It is interesting that so many people demonise or try and dehumanise asylum seekrs, and thne try and claim economic factors as the reason "they're all buldegers living off wlefare, etc etc."

Then they go on to admire the most expensive processing option available, the Pacific solution, and talk the Liberals up for their policies. If money is the issue, why the most expensive solution? Much of Howard's efforts in "stopping the boats" related directly to the domestic situation in Sri Lanka and the ceasefire between the Tamils & the Sri Lankan government. Two of the three largest sources of asylum seekers are Iraq & Afghanistan - two areas best by wars that Howard pushed for, again at great economic cost.
If the economic argument was applied, why not discuss the increase in taxpayers as a proportion of our aging population? If we can cast aspersions on all people as beign "blidgers" on the basis of a single anecdote, why can't someone also mention that our richest person (Frank Lowy) was also a refugee?

I wonder at what point some of the hard right will actually admit that fear and xenophobia are actually contribution factors in many of their arguments? I may not agree with the manner of some of FX's posts on this thread (although to be fair he has been baited & insulted just as readily) but there are many poiints he has made that have not yet been countered.

And I will restate, for the record, this is an area both governments have failed in - without any sort of regional cooperation (and as a priority, closer ties with Indonesia) the will be no solution, nor any real progress, in managing the issue.

Ah Mofra and much respect to you as well

 

[Tink]

Hear Hear, I will second that IFocus, and good post FX too : )

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Asia Pacific is about an arbitrary geographic region not skin colour or ethnicity.


Since nobody here is advocating for "unregulated migration" and this will never likely occur any such fear can hardly be genuine or justified.


Xenophobia is never reasonable or natural. It is however taught, promoted and fostered by those who wish to manipulate opinion, others and create prejudice. Rather than being respected, it needs to countered and opposed vigorously or it will be used as justification for oppression, hatred and violence.

I have not ever stated that these are my opinions.

However you need to consult Mr and Mrs Shoppingtrolley.

As they say in The Castle, its an Australian movie you may not be familiar with, "yer dreamin"

gg

 

[Julia]

Hear Hear, I will second that IFocus, and good post FX too : )

Tink, I may have missed it, but I've never seen a definitive post from you actually setting out your beliefs on this issue.

You frequently do, as above, and endorse someone else, but I'd be interested to hear what you actually think should be happening, and why.