Asylum immigrants - Green Light

[noco]

Noco's figures? If I want biased and out of context reporting, I'd want it delivered by a pretty blond with cleavage showing like they do on Fox News and other media channels.

I'm not proposing open borders, never did. Don't know what the solution is, just know it's not either we lock them up out of sight like criminals or open and welcome all who crosses the seas. That and we do have international obligations to human rights and all that stuff.

The problem with all these Refugee debates is we put all the blame on the refugees for things they haven't yet had a chance to even try ruining.

So Italian migrants, Jewish refugees from WW2, other European refugees/migrants from WW2, Asian refugees, Irish potato famine refugees, First fleet convicts... they all managed to help contribute to Australia. These were convicts, from different cultures, different religion, no skills or little skills, most with zero money... but they all managed to, the majority of them, grow the country... except for Muslims?

Muslim and Arab refugees come here, so we say, to live off welfare and bomb themselves and us up eventually... that or they breed and their adherence to Allah and Islam is a threat to our multi-cultural society?

----

Why are there so many refugees and economic migrants in recent years? Nothing to do with our or our allies' foreign policies?

Heard from experts that the Mexicans crossing into the US in droves soon after NAFTA trade agreement under Clinton flooded Mexico with American produce, sending Mexican farmers broke and those young enough tries to cross the border, work on American farms for low wages so they can send some money home to feed their folks.

Didn't Kerry say something about Climate Change refugees a few months ago? When the crops in poor countries die due to drought or flooding or generally wild weather patterns... chances are their gov't won't be stepping in to help with tax or any relieves.

I guess real tough people would stay and die on the land as God intended, most try to move to higher grounds or better land to start again.

And the dozen or so wars and generally unstable gov't in the ME... inflation, unemployment, death and general discomfort tend to happen when your country and neighbours are constantly at it. Again, people can stay and hope to live through it, or they might think that maybe 15 years of this and things are just heating up is about the right time to get the heck out of the place and let the warriors and peace makers go at it.

----

I thought I was trying to help the refugees and Australian in this debate. Can't help anyone if business can't make a buck or two out of it.

Perhaps you should go and preach your HUMAN RIGHTS BS to ISIS and many of those radical Islamic lunatics.

 

[luutzu]

Perhaps you should go and preach your HUMAN RIGHTS BS to ISIS and many of those radical Islamic lunatics.

But they might say the same as you're saying, then chop my head off.
That's if I'm allowed to go there by our govt.

 

[qldfrog]

Luutzu,
Being immigrant myself, I am probably less radical than noco, my entries in this thread are just motivated by my western europe experience where once muslim immigration reached a significant percentage, it all went to sh#t and both economy, citizens and overall culture were annihilated;
Yet these european countries are countries of migration.But you can not integrate nor cohabit with migrants who have no respect for you or your culture yet agree to parasite it while trying to destroy it;
We should not blame them: as I say only 6 billions to go;
It is natural to try to go and get a better life elsewhere if you can;
Each individual is quite justified to try.
After all, migrants in western europe were a key factor in my wish to migrate myself.
And I am so happy I did it move here, more than ever, but the host countries must serve their own interest, otherwise you just move from a ****ty place to another which become as sh&& as the one you left:
look at Lebanon and the palestinian refugeesl
I am sure we can agree Lebanon got destroyed by its conscience, yet the Palestinian at the time were true refugees, not economic migrants
anyway, you will not change your opinion , maybe the day you have children you may start redirecting your views.
In any case, thanks for all the actors here to have kept polite and decent.

 

[drsmith]

SHY who prematurely cheered via Twitter that OSB was dead in late 2013 sfter the SBY spying issue broke and who also is only too willing to dismiss deaths at sea as accidents and tragedies that happen is at it again,

Hanson-Young says public don't want babies born on 'prison island'

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-...-transferring-pregnant-asylum-seekers/6856708

Meanwhile, it would seem that some parents are choosing to keep their children in detention.

Part of a response from Peter Dutton in reply to a question from Clive Palmer in QT yesterday,

So that leaves 17 children in detention here in Australia””those that have come here by boat. We are working with those parents and with the agencies, including a ASIO, to determine how we might how we might get those children out. It is difficult in a number of circumstances because there may be an adverse ASIO assessment against the father, for example, and I have made it very clear that that father will not be released into the community whilst that person poses a national security risk to our country. I think all members in this place would support that stance. In those instances, I have said to the mother, for example, that we will allow her release with the children into the community because we do not have a security concern in relation to them. In some circumstances those parents have taken the decision that the mother and children can be released, and in some circumstances they have decided to remain in detention with the father. We will work through each of those cases.

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo...dr/9719682d-09af-4772-a03a-a954ad5d7b6a/0000"

 

[noco]

SHY who prematurely cheered via Twitter that OSB was dead in late 2013 sfter the SBY spying issue broke and who also is only too willing to dismiss deaths at sea as accidents and tragedies that happen is at it again,



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-...-transferring-pregnant-asylum-seekers/6856708

Meanwhile, it would seem that some parents are choosing to keep their children in detention.

Part of a response from Peter Dutton in reply to a question from Clive Palmer in QT yesterday,



http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo...dr/9719682d-09af-4772-a03a-a954ad5d7b6a/0000"

Doc, you are so right as to the reason why there are still a few children in detention camps......The Liberal Party unlike the Labor will not rubber stamp the release of these kids fathers due to the security risk they may impose.

So will the Labor party whinging do gooders please pull their horns in and do some research as to why these kids are still in detention.

 

[luutzu]

Luutzu,
Being immigrant myself, I am probably less radical than noco, my entries in this thread are just motivated by my western europe experience where once muslim immigration reached a significant percentage, it all went to sh#t and both economy, citizens and overall culture were annihilated;
Yet these european countries are countries of migration.But you can not integrate nor cohabit with migrants who have no respect for you or your culture yet agree to parasite it while trying to destroy it;
We should not blame them: as I say only 6 billions to go;
It is natural to try to go and get a better life elsewhere if you can;
Each individual is quite justified to try.
After all, migrants in western europe were a key factor in my wish to migrate myself.
And I am so happy I did it move here, more than ever, but the host countries must serve their own interest, otherwise you just move from a ****ty place to another which become as sh&& as the one you left:
look at Lebanon and the palestinian refugeesl
I am sure we can agree Lebanon got destroyed by its conscience, yet the Palestinian at the time were true refugees, not economic migrants
anyway, you will not change your opinion , maybe the day you have children you may start redirecting your views.
In any case, thanks for all the actors here to have kept polite and decent.

It might be that when the Arabs and Muslims move into the country, say France, the place goes to crab. From that it's reasonable to draw correlation between parasitic refugees who do not assimilate, do not work but just suck the country dry.

Maybe that is actually the case in Europe, I don't know. But from economists and the news and experience and observations I've made... I do not think that is the case at all.

Sure when new immigrants, particularly poor refugees not knowing a word of English or the dominant language... sure when they move in, property prices will drop, there will be crimes from some or most of them, drugs pushing and all the bad stuff that's all over the news. But from what I know from within my own community, crimes are committed by some, not all;

Most refugees works hard, try to make the best they can with whatever help the gov't can give and with whatever work they could find... being poor and not knowing the new culture or the language, they will have to live around each other. Have said this before...

Point is, what you observed there, while some aspect of it are criminal activities and anti-social behaviour... those could simply be due to people being poor, desperate, greedy and lazy... There's a bunch of such people in any group you care to classify.

But to blame what is, in the grand scheme of things, petty crimes and pennies of waste and gov't spending... to blame the lost jobs, the lower wages, the lack of opportunities and general economic and social decline the majority of natives suffers... to blame all that on refugees fleecing off taxpayers, or abusing the adopted countries generosity and turn terrorist or criminal against the hand that feed and welcome them... such attribution have no basis in fact.

And that's not being PR or turning a blind eye or class warfare...

If you look at research on income inequality, declining wages in the US, say... These have nothing to do with refugees or immigrants. It's the steady redistribution of wealth upwards - making laws that favour the rich and their corporations, tax cuts and redefinition of income, more taxes on the working class through payroll, toll roads, higher utility costs etc. etc.

So the working class have to have both parents working, working more jobs or more hours with lower and lower wages; greater and greater job insecurity; job loses and no training provided for jobs of the future or whatever they're called...

So the working class get poorer, working harder but not making ends meet... Who to blame?

Ask politicians and as if they'll tell you they're to blame. They make the dam laws but the laws are fine and fair.
Asks the media and who do they serve? The readers or the corporations who buy ads and commercial air time?

So if a person look around, being misled by their leaders and their journalists... nothing have changed but for the immigrants, the refugees, the "other" groups. I mean, look at them, they're not like us, they're so poor and making us poorer; we're too generous and being generous we're suffering for it; the rich are so clean and well dressed and so how could they make the country poor? They're rich because they're smart and work hard etc. etc.

-----

No. Lebanon is not destroyed by its conscience for the Palestinian refugees. Sure it is a strain on them... but if you look at Israel's periodic airstrikes on Lebanon... Israel has been at war with Lebanon many times, and when it's not an official war they flew a few sorties and target Lebanon's infrastructures - roads, power station etc.

---

I have three children. All young kids. I am surrounded by Muslims and Arabs... so trust me, if anyone has an interests in whether or not they're safe to be around, I'm one of them. If anyone has interests in how their tax dollar is to be spent, I'm quite keen where it goes.

All these debates and time on refugees and welfare and liberal socialist stuff... it's not just pure generosity or unthinking fluff. It's out of self interests - for ourselves and for our children.

If we care for our children, why would we stand by and let other people and other children being discriminated against? Our kids might be homosexual, we might be poor and the kids poor with us and will struggle...

Why let politicians lie and misled and act "tough" on helpless people? Those that can do that will do worst, and not necessarily to other people either.

Anyway... we live in a society, and in society looking out for the other is looking out for ourselves too. Only the dump and the rich think they could do well and live well by destroying other people. That's why revolution and revolts always happen every few generations throughout history.

 

[qldfrog]

Luutzu
very coherent argument
I understand asI could have held the same when I was 18y old and so but my personal experience from living within the estates and cohabiting from 18y old or so till leaving to move to Oz has made me do a U turn.
I hope you are right and the refugees moving in Oz are different: after all, it is more expensive and harder so maybe you have a selection in place, plus are we talking immigrants or refugees?
I am 100% sure arab/muslim/black/yellow/green or red: migrants who came under selection point, with proper process are 150% valuable to this country and I welcome them.
I just believe the asylum seekers are different.
Would be VERY happy to be proven wrong in the future.
All the best for your families, I will slow on this thread as i can not add much more

 

[SirRumpole]

.
I just believe the asylum seekers are different.

That's because they are different. They invite themselves into our country without being asked, and in doing so they put strains on our finances for which we are unprepared.

Of course people will say we are a rich country, but with a $40 bn pa Federal deficit and government debts of $700 bn , we are not a rich country any more.

 

[noco]

That's because they are different. They invite themselves into our country without being asked, and in doing so they put strains on our finances for which we are unprepared.

Of course people will say we are a rich country, but with a $40 bn pa Federal deficit and government debts of $700 bn , we are not a rich country any more.

Yes, what an unholy mess we find ourselves in after 6 years of hard Labor and please don't repeat that crap about the GFC.

 

[Tisme]

Doc, you are so right as to the reason why there are still a few children in detention camps......The Liberal Party unlike the Labor will not rubber stamp the release of these kids fathers due to the security risk they may impose.

So will the Labor party whinging do gooders please pull their horns in and do some research as to why these kids are still in detention.

Got any proof of what you are saying or merely rubber stamping what one of you political idols is supposedly saying? I bet you believe no boats have attempted or managed to arrive either.


The only potential Labor party advocate here doesn't seem to be onside with allowing people in and certainly isn't a whinging do gooder as far as I can ascertain...in fact you two seem rather pally?

 

[Tisme]

That's because they are different. They invite themselves into our country without being asked, and in doing so they put strains on our finances for which we are unprepared.

Of course people will say we are a rich country, but with a $40 bn pa Federal deficit and government debts of $700 bn , we are not a rich country any more.

What have they spending it on....Abbott's infrastructure Or maybe the $21bn NBN Lite that is now at $70bn and growing Doubled the deficit in less than two years ...... I want them handling my portfolio and running my business affairs NOT!

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes, what an unholy mess we find ourselves in after 6 years of hard Labor and please don't repeat that crap about the GFC.

So the GFC was an illusion was it ?

 

[luutzu]

Luutzu
very coherent argument
I understand asI could have held the same when I was 18y old and so but my personal experience from living within the estates and cohabiting from 18y old or so till leaving to move to Oz has made me do a U turn.
I hope you are right and the refugees moving in Oz are different: after all, it is more expensive and harder so maybe you have a selection in place, plus are we talking immigrants or refugees?
I am 100% sure arab/muslim/black/yellow/green or red: migrants who came under selection point, with proper process are 150% valuable to this country and I welcome them.
I just believe the asylum seekers are different.
Would be VERY happy to be proven wrong in the future.
All the best for your families, I will slow on this thread as i can not add much more

I don't think they're different in a bad way. Different in that their personal circumstances and experience will mean they'll work harder, put up with a lot more... not out of some greatness or whatever, but out of necessity and out of the fact that they've been given a second chance in life.

Most refugees, and most people, who went through such experience tend to try their best not to stay idle and live off of welfare. And since most refugees are from poor and war-torn countries, they will most likely have parents and relatives back home who needs financial help... So they will work harder to not just take care of their family here, but so they can send some back to support those who weren't so lucky.

I've read a report last year that actually show these stuff.

 

[SirRumpole]

I don't think they're different in a bad way. Different in that their personal circumstances and experience will mean they'll work harder, put up with a lot more... not out of some greatness or whatever, but out of necessity and out of the fact that they've been given a second chance in life.

Most refugees, and most people, who went through such experience tend to try their best not to stay idle and live off of welfare. And since most refugees are from poor and war-torn countries, they will most likely have parents and relatives back home who needs financial help... So they will work harder to not just take care of their family here, but so they can send some back to support those who weren't so lucky.

I've read a report last year that actually show these stuff.

I hate to disillusion you because while your statements may well have been true for European and Vietnamese refugees the same is not the case for Middle Eastern refugees as this report shows.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...-report-suggests/story-fnu2pwk8-1227529223781

 

[luutzu]

So the GFC was an illusion was it ?

What GFC? Some see crisis, others see opportunity

Those banks that brought the US to the brink... they've gotten bigger since the GFC. JP Morgan I heard has gotten 50% bigger, and the top 10 banks in the US now controls about 44% of the US deposits and financial assets.

The last time they ruin stuff, they were too big to fail and got bailed out, their CEO got bigger bonuses and a few of them are now billionaires. And the Obama justice dept., as Ben Bernanke recently said in an interview, were not prosecuting any wrong doers but threaten to prosecute "the bank" itself - an entity that is hard to put into prison. So they pay a fine instead.

With that kind of incentives to take risk and win I win, lose I win bigger... it's going to be a big franchise.

 

[noco]

Got any proof of what you are saying or merely rubber stamping what one of you political idols is supposedly saying? I bet you believe no boats have attempted or managed to arrive either.


The only potential Labor party advocate here doesn't seem to be onside with allowing people in and certainly isn't a whinging do gooder as far as I can ascertain...in fact you two seem rather pally?

That rubber stamping of illegals by Labor is not only my opinion but the opinion of others.

I refer you to post # 3605

Labor had no alternative but to push them out into the community without proper security checks due to lack of detention centers...The detentions centers were full to overflowing ......Christmas Island was designed for some 1700 but on occasions had over 2500........ Labor were even putting them up in motels at the tax payers expense....

So if you cannot see past your nose on this one well, I am afraid I cannot help you.

 

[noco]

So the GFC was an illusion was it ?

Rumpy, I am sure you are intelligent enough to understand what really went on during the GFC and how Labor went overboard with erratic spending on roof insulation, overpriced school halls and the $11 billion + wasted on illegal immigrants, cash for clunkers, fuel watch and food watch and lots of other hare brain schemes.

I am not saying there was no GFC, just that it was exaggerated by Labor and they panicked.

Most of us know and understand if Labor had been a lot more practical and used some common sense in planning and forethought instead of thought bubbles on the back of a dinner napkin, then I strongly believe they could have done twice as much with half the money they wasted.

 

[luutzu]

I hate to disillusion you because while your statements may well have been true for European and Vietnamese refugees the same is not the case for Middle Eastern refugees as this report shows.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...-report-suggests/story-fnu2pwk8-1227529223781

$700m for 12,000 refugees? That's $58k each? I'm definitely sure those $58K won't go into their pockets.

We're refugees, I know a lot of refugees. Australia was, I am guessing, much more generous and welcoming and probably more economically well off back then than now... But those financial generosity were never on the scale Morrison is talking about. He's talking rubbish... it's some sick game man.

And why is it a surprise that on average, an adult refugee who doesn't know the language or the people or the environment well, to earn much less than a skilled migrant?

We're all people, we're much more similar than we look.
Compare ours to a monkey's DNA, there something like 1% or less difference. Skin colour or attending different group hug each week does not change our inherent similarities that much.

 

[drsmith]

...in fact you two seem rather pally?

If there's something I've said to which you disagree then please by all means have the stomach to respond directly.

 

[luutzu]

Rumpy, I am sure you are intelligent enough to understand what really went on during the GFC and how Labor went overboard with erratic spending on roof insulation, overpriced school halls and the $11 billion + wasted on illegal immigrants, cash for clunkers, fuel watch and food watch and lots of other hare brain schemes.

I am not saying there was no GFC, just that it was exaggerated by Labor and they panicked.

Most of us know and understand if Labor had been a lot more practical and used some common sense in planning and forethought instead of thought bubbles on the back of a dinner napkin, then I strongly believe they could have done twice as much with half the money they wasted.

It was the commodity boom and those "waste" that kept Australia out of the Great Recession.

Gov't "waste" like building things create jobs noco.

How's cutting mining tax and carbon tax and hoping those cuts will mean more money for corporation and with more money they'll keep hiring people; with carbon tax gone all Australians will get cheaper power bills... how's that going?