Asylum immigrants - Green Light

[luutzu]

On matters children in detention, Adam Bandt had a question to the PM in QT yesterday,



http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo...dr/1d38c79d-f3f8-401a-81d0-e364715774a5/0000"

Ha! Conscience.

The country is being robbed blind, with politicians being bought and paid for while the masses get to turn up once every few years to tick a box and go home to a house they can barely afford and will take a lifetime to pay off... with utilities being privatised like I-get-you-elected-you-sell-monopolies-to-me, leading to price gouging and profiteering like the good old days of the industrial revolution... and we're here bashing Muslims for wanting to build a place of worship, lock the kids up because while no one wants it it is necessary for security.

Priorities man.

 

[noco]

Ha! Conscience.

The country is being robbed blind, with politicians being bought and paid for while the masses get to turn up once every few years to tick a box and go home to a house they can barely afford and will take a lifetime to pay off... with utilities being privatised like I-get-you-elected-you-sell-monopolies-to-me, leading to price gouging and profiteering like the good old days of the industrial revolution... and we're here bashing Muslims for wanting to build a place of worship, lock the kids up because while no one wants it it is necessary for security.

Priorities man.

Of course the alternative would be to open the borders again like the LUG party did with more kids drowning at sea....Over 1250 men, women and children lost their lives thanks to the stupidity of Rudd and Gillard...Which would you prefer?

There were 2000 kids in detention under Labor...That has been reduced to around 100 under the current government.

What are you complaining about?...Give the government time to clean up Labor's usual mess.

 

[Tisme]

There were 2000 kids in detention under Labor....

.

That's a convenient lie and should be beneath you Noco.

The fact is that the numbers peeked at 1992 in July 2013, but the period of detention/processing was much shorter in fact the lowest detention period = ~60 days on average. It was when the LNP came to office that detention period escalated to a point where it is hovering around 450 - 500 days, presumably for the political gain and profit for some.

If the processing had been kept at July 2013 rate by the Abbott Govt and the number of boat arrivals declined as they have; how many kids would be in detention now Noco? What would have been the subsequent cost to taxpayer for not having to build facilities, pay rapist guards, transported raped and brutalised people to Australian hospitals?

Even your mate Blind Freddy would have enough smarts to know you and Turnbull are trying to be clever dicks to annoy your opponents and prepared to use people's suffering (450 days!!!) to win brownie points. Of course there's always that invisible band of friends who live in one's mind who will approve of the artful deceit.

When someone lands by plane into Australia seeking asylum....are they sent to Nauru or PNG?

 

[noco]

That's a convenient lie and should be beneath you Noco.

The fact is that the numbers peeked at 1992 in July 2013, but the period of detention/processing was much shorter in fact the lowest detention period = ~60 days on average. It was when the LNP came to office that detention period escalated to a point where it is hovering around 450 - 500 days, presumably for the political gain and profit for some.

If the processing had been kept at July 2013 rate by the Abbott Govt and the number of boat arrivals declined as they have; how many kids would be in detention now Noco? What would have been the subsequent cost to taxpayer for not having to build facilities, pay rapist guards, transported raped and brutalised people to Australian hospitals?

Even your mate Blind Freddy would have enough smarts to know you and Turnbull are trying to be clever dicks to annoy your opponents and prepared to use people's suffering (450 days!!!) to win brownie points. Of course there's always that invisible band of friends who live in one's mind who will approve of the artful deceit.

When someone lands by plane into Australia seeking asylum....are they sent to Nauru or PNG?

The number of children in detention under Labor peeked at 2000........The current government has that figure down to around 100...not a bad effort in 2 years....but of course your buddies expect more.

1250 men, women and children lost their lives at sea thanks to Rudd and Gillard's open boarder policy......none have been lost at sea since the Liberal Government came to power......

The LUG parties detention rate was low because they ran out of detention center space and processed them willy nilly...There was no thorough checks made to to find out if they were in fact genuine refugees, criminals or Muslim radicals..

What would you sooner observe?....

People arriving in Australia by air craft do have to have a passport and a visa.......Illegal boat people sent a txt message to Gillard to send a water taxi to pick them up and tossing their IDs over board before hand....They did have passports and visas when they landed in Indonesia....So I ask you, why did they not want to identified?.....I know the answer.

Take your blinkers off....most people with any common sense knew exactly what was happening.

 

[drsmith]

If the processing had been kept at July 2013 rate by the Abbott Govt and the number of boat arrivals declined as they have; how many kids would be in detention now Noco? What would have been the subsequent cost to taxpayer for not having to build facilities,.........?

It's fantasy to think the boats would have stopped if we continued as business as usual from July 2013.

The situation would likely have got worse as at that time was getting worse. By that point, the Gillard government had reached the milestone of 1000 boat arrivals in a week.

Processing through the detention centres under the Gillard government became a rubber stamp as it was overwhelmed by the number of boat arrivals despite opening many detention centres both here and offshore.

The boats don't stop magically through wishful thinking and the fundamental objective hasn't changed. That's preventing the seeking of asylum from becoming a commercial product for people smugglers to flog.

 

[Tisme]

The number of children in detention under Labor peeked at 2000........The current government has that figure down to around 100...not a bad effort in 2 years....but of course your buddies expect more.

1250 men, women and children lost their lives at sea thanks to Rudd and Gillard's open boarder policy......none have been lost at sea since the Liberal Government came to power......

The LUG parties detention rate was low because they ran out of detention center space and processed them willy nilly...There was no thorough checks made to to find out if they were in fact genuine refugees, criminals or Muslim radicals..

What would you sooner observe?....

People arriving in Australia by air craft do have to have a passport and a visa.......Illegal boat people sent a txt message to Gillard to send a water taxi to pick them up and tossing their IDs over board before hand....They did have passports and visas when they landed in Indonesia....So I ask you, why did they not want to identified?.....I know the answer.

Take your blinkers off....most people with any common sense knew exactly what was happening.

Do you reckon you could hold off on the charged names and made up acronyms for just a few posts so some of us can see the points you are trying to make Noco.

Corrections:

1. Down to 100 in two years is pitiful and spiteful = human cargo used by Abbott to wound his political opponents
2. They are not my buddies; unlike your good self I am not welded to a political agenda, but a free thinker
3. Your defense is always attack of your chosen insoluble hatred of anything non LNP so there is no room for any dialogue to the contrary.

My post was rhetorical, I didn't expect you or the other welded Liberal to counter, much less with any humanitarian bent. It's as if you think the ALP and Greens own the space that deals with empathy and welfare and their contiguous borders, so anyone expressing a degree of disgust at liars, cheats and opportunists with human tragedy are automatically ALP or Green supporters..... can I remind you of you grand master Menzies back in the sixties and how he made various welfare initiatives his own... or was he a LUGite too?

 

[drsmith]

Do you reckon you could hold off on the charged names and made up acronyms for just a few posts so some of us can see the points you are trying to make Noco.

Corrections:

1. Down to 100 in two years is pitiful and spiteful = human cargo used by Abbott to wound his political opponents
2. They are not my buddies; unlike your good self I am not welded to a political agenda, but a free thinker
3. Your defense is always attack of your chosen insoluble hatred of anything non LNP so there is no room for any dialogue to the contrary.

My post was rhetorical, I didn't expect you or the other welded Liberal to counter, much less with any humanitarian bent. It's as if you think the ALP and Greens own the space that deals with empathy and welfare and their contiguous borders, so anyone expressing a degree of disgust at liars, cheats and opportunists with human tragedy are automatically ALP or Green supporters..... can I remind you of you grand master Menzies back in the sixties and how he made various welfare initiatives his own... or was he a LUGite too?

Who's the other to whom you refer to as a welded Liberal ?

If someone's had something to say to which you disagree, perhaps you could address that post directly.

 

[noco]

Do you reckon you could hold off on the charged names and made up acronyms for just a few posts so some of us can see the points you are trying to make Noco.

Corrections:

1. Down to 100 in two years is pitiful and spiteful = human cargo used by Abbott to wound his political opponents
2. They are not my buddies; unlike your good self I am not welded to a political agenda, but a free thinker
3. Your defense is always attack of your chosen insoluble hatred of anything non LNP so there is no room for any dialogue to the contrary.

My post was rhetorical, I didn't expect you or the other welded Liberal to counter, much less with any humanitarian bent. It's as if you think the ALP and Greens own the space that deals with empathy and welfare and their contiguous borders, so anyone expressing a degree of disgust at liars, cheats and opportunists with human tragedy are automatically ALP or Green supporters..... can I remind you of you grand master Menzies back in the sixties and how he made various welfare initiatives his own... or was he a LUGite too?

Wow, with all that rhetoric I have obviously hit a nerve which is still tingling in your body.

The answer I was seeking from you to my question was, why did the illegal boat people throw away their IDs?

You appear to have conveniently wriggled out of that one.

 

[Tisme]

Wow, with all that rhetoric I have obviously hit a nerve which is still tingling in your body.

The answer I was seeking from you to my question was, why did the illegal boat people throw away their IDs?

You appear to have conveniently wriggled out of that one.

Well no it hasn't..... I have no idea what asylum seekers do and if they are indeed illegals under the charter we are signatories too. I sure as 54it don't believe anything the lying mouths in Canberra tell the nation.

I'm annoyed that the green shoots Malcolm was showing died a death when he responded to that Greens idiot by attacking, instead of merely stating he was part of the previous policy. I was hoping we now had a leader rather than a twopenny polly.... even I get disappointed at my predictions coming true when it's not in the national interest.

and I still ask you give us all a break from the names and acronyms

 

[drsmith]

Well no it hasn't..... I have no idea what asylum seekers do and if they are indeed illegals under the charter we are signatories too. I sure as 54it don't believe anything the lying mouths in Canberra tell the nation.

I'm annoyed that the green shoots Malcolm was showing died a death when he responded to that Greens idiot by attacking, instead of merely stating he was part of the previous policy. I was hoping we now had a leader rather than a twopenny polly.... even I get disappointed at my predictions coming true when it's not in the national interest.

and I still ask you give us all a break from the names and acronyms

Who's the mystery welded Lib and what did they say to reduce you to name calling ?

 

[drsmith]

Ha! Conscience.

The country is being robbed blind, with politicians being bought and paid for while the masses get to turn up once every few years to tick a box and go home to a house they can barely afford and will take a lifetime to pay off... with utilities being privatised like I-get-you-elected-you-sell-monopolies-to-me, leading to price gouging and profiteering like the good old days of the industrial revolution... and we're here bashing Muslims for wanting to build a place of worship, lock the kids up because while no one wants it it is necessary for security.

Priorities man.

There's a lot of comment in the above that's unrelated to the specific topic of this thread but that's perhaps a reflection of what the critics of the current government's border protection policies are reduced to in this thread.

If we were to scrap the detention network, how do we do that without incentivising illegal people smuggling activities ?

That's the question to which I'm yet to see an answer. What's not an answer is opening our borders as the Greens would like.

 

[luutzu]

There's a lot of comment in the above that's unrelated to the specific topic of this thread but that's perhaps a reflection of what the critics of the current government's border protection policies are reduced to in this thread.

If we were to scrap the detention network, how do we do that without incentivising illegal people smuggling activities ?

That's the question to which I'm yet to see an answer. What's not an answer is opening our borders as the Greens would like.

You may think they're unrelated, I obviously think otherwise.

Let's expand on it.

Turnbull talks about "conscience" right? That our turn back the boat policies are tough and considered harsh by some but it's necessary for our security and presumably our common wealth. It's tough but it's fair and reasonable and anyone who needs medical attention will get it, so we have a good conscience.

First, what harms a nation's common wealth? What takes away more of its treasure and opportunities to its people? Refugees or big corporations not paying their fair share of tax, or the oligarchs buying politicians and have these elected officials do their bidding?

Recent research found that in NSW and VIC, where electricity has been privatised to be more competitive, to save taxpayers money... in these two states, about 30 to 47% of the bills we all paid for power are purely profit to the power companies, only some 11% of what's paid by all of us are for the actual usage of the electricity itself.

Is that the kind of thing you'd do if it's the people and their money you're looking out for?
Did the refugees cause these kind of privatisation?

Or how about the removal of the carbon tax, the mining super profit tax? Did our power bills come down by much due to those? Has the miners keep people they no longer need because that's what they do or did they axe it the moment things look tough and taxpayers will have to fork out and step up to help the now unemployed workers? So taxpayers get jack all when the miners are doing really really well, and when not so well they fire people and write down assets so there's less profit to tax... and in the meantime, "sell" at low profit to their subsidiaries overseas, pay low tax on those low profits...

This list can go on, but you get the point.

---

So now we have real Australians, struggling, not having enough uni places to educate themselves or their kids, having trade policies that favour the corps so that we're more "competitive" and more "innovative"... and we end up with struggling Australians competing with bloody refugees for jobs and for welfare.

We're told by our dear leaders that technology will change the workforce, globalisation will mean more competition for work and skills... and then they bloody defund higher education, saying it costs too much and will eventually privatise it too.. .going the way of the US where graduates owe on average $50 to $100k after getting a degree that might give them a shot at a decent job.

---

So on the one hand our natural resources are being sold on the cheap; our taxation are being played around by those who could afford high priced accountants; and our human resources and potential are being vacated and abandoned, sold down the river and very soon only those whose parents are rich could even think about getting the kind of education for jobs that might last half their lifetime and not be done cheaper elsewhere.

So that's one hand... on the other, we sold our national conscience for a very high price to the likes of Transfield services and people smugglers we're all raving on against.

We don't know whether or not they're refugees because we told our patrol officers to not ask about it. Just tow them away or pay the smugglers... or if can't do either, put them on a raft and set it due north. If can't do all that, then let's put them in camps.

So we have struggling Aussies feeling threatened by refugees taking the doles and the jobs from them or their family and friends; or Aussies who are so indoctrinated to believe in the evil of a religion, a culture that anyone that looks like them ought to be lock up or turn around just in case they're coming all that way to bomb us or some crazy thing Arabs do.

Forgeting that research have shown refugees will, within a decade or two, made significant economic and cultural contribution to Australia personally, directly. Before that, they contribute by doing jobs no one wants to, getting paid at wages that's illegal etc. etc.

Meanwhile, the fat cats and their consultants are taking from us and may trickle down a few crumbs here and there... and we're fighting over what again? Muslims and refugees.

Bloody hell, you tax Google and Apple and BHP fairly like you'd tax the rest of the small folks, you could fund all university places and a few non-toll bridges and railways, and maybe could help a few refugees too.

 

[qldfrog]

You may think they're unrelated, I obviously think otherwise.
,,,.

Fully agree on where the money is lost and the real economic issues (tax avoidance etc) but:
will letting anyone in (as this is what the so called refugee debate is) change any of these economic/tax issues?
no
Will this worsen the situation for the majority of australian ? yes!

I would also strongly contest your statement that refugees contribute economically to society:
we are not talking migrants/italian/greeks coming in 50y ago, we are talking about a new wave of people who still are on welfare 80% of the time after 3/5 years from some souvenirs
Noco i am sure would be able to find figures and source!!!

But these were not LNP distorded figures.
We are probably to blame as we do not give them the opportunities
When there is no job for locals (aka ozzies) you do not bring in more people costs;
All this does not consider the cultural threat, so please luutzu, have a nice trip to Europe and see what migration (the one we are talking about) can do to annihilate both an economy and a culture.
And you should also remember that big business has always been for an open door policy, these big businesses rorting the tax system must have such a conscience, unless migration is a nice way to screw your workforce and increase your profit?
So who do you actually help on this debate?I am so cynical am I

 

[drsmith]

Bloody hell, you tax Google and Apple and BHP fairly like you'd tax the rest of the small folks, you could fund all university places and a few non-toll bridges and railways, and maybe could help a few refugees too.

We already help more than a few through the humanitarian component of our immigration intake.

The substance of your argument in your post above seems to be to justify opening the door to people smuggling on the basis that two (or more) wrongs make a right. There's a fundamental admission in that that you recognise what you are advocating is wrong.

 

[Tisme]

I assume people trying the airlines route are put in a holding cell and flown back to whence they came.

I'm wondering if the conditions we detain the boat people in isn't worse than from whence they came?

 

[SirRumpole]

I'm wondering if the conditions we detain the boat people in isn't worse than from whence they came?

That's the idea isn't it ?

So they decide to go back.

 

[Tisme]

That's the idea isn't it ?

So they decide to go back.

I would guess so and in the process smear the nation with the odour.

Might be a bit dangerous in the future visiting those origin countries and speaking in an Oz accent.

 

[SirRumpole]

I would guess so and in the process smear the nation with the odour.

Might be a bit dangerous in the future visiting those origin countries and speaking in an Oz accent.

Yes I think you are right. Parts of Sri Lanka particularly.

 

[luutzu]

Fully agree on where the money is lost and the real economic issues (tax avoidance etc) but:
will letting anyone in (as this is what the so called refugee debate is) change any of these economic/tax issues?
no
Will this worsen the situation for the majority of australian ? yes!

I would also strongly contest your statement that refugees contribute economically to society:
we are not talking migrants/italian/greeks coming in 50y ago, we are talking about a new wave of people who still are on welfare 80% of the time after 3/5 years from some souvenirs
Noco i am sure would be able to find figures and source!!!

But these were not LNP distorded figures.
We are probably to blame as we do not give them the opportunities
When there is no job for locals (aka ozzies) you do not bring in more people costs;
All this does not consider the cultural threat, so please luutzu, have a nice trip to Europe and see what migration (the one we are talking about) can do to annihilate both an economy and a culture.
And you should also remember that big business has always been for an open door policy, these big businesses rorting the tax system must have such a conscience, unless migration is a nice way to screw your workforce and increase your profit?
So who do you actually help on this debate?I am so cynical am I

Noco's figures? If I want biased and out of context reporting, I'd want it delivered by a pretty blond with cleavage showing like they do on Fox News and other media channels.

I'm not proposing open borders, never did. Don't know what the solution is, just know it's not either we lock them up out of sight like criminals or open and welcome all who crosses the seas. That and we do have international obligations to human rights and all that stuff.

The problem with all these Refugee debates is we put all the blame on the refugees for things they haven't yet had a chance to even try ruining.

So Italian migrants, Jewish refugees from WW2, other European refugees/migrants from WW2, Asian refugees, Irish potato famine refugees, First fleet convicts... they all managed to help contribute to Australia. These were convicts, from different cultures, different religion, no skills or little skills, most with zero money... but they all managed to, the majority of them, grow the country... except for Muslims?

Muslim and Arab refugees come here, so we say, to live off welfare and bomb themselves and us up eventually... that or they breed and their adherence to Allah and Islam is a threat to our multi-cultural society?

----

Why are there so many refugees and economic migrants in recent years? Nothing to do with our or our allies' foreign policies?

Heard from experts that the Mexicans crossing into the US in droves soon after NAFTA trade agreement under Clinton flooded Mexico with American produce, sending Mexican farmers broke and those young enough tries to cross the border, work on American farms for low wages so they can send some money home to feed their folks.

Didn't Kerry say something about Climate Change refugees a few months ago? When the crops in poor countries die due to drought or flooding or generally wild weather patterns... chances are their gov't won't be stepping in to help with tax or any relieves.

I guess real tough people would stay and die on the land as God intended, most try to move to higher grounds or better land to start again.

And the dozen or so wars and generally unstable gov't in the ME... inflation, unemployment, death and general discomfort tend to happen when your country and neighbours are constantly at it. Again, people can stay and hope to live through it, or they might think that maybe 15 years of this and things are just heating up is about the right time to get the heck out of the place and let the warriors and peace makers go at it.

----

I thought I was trying to help the refugees and Australian in this debate. Can't help anyone if business can't make a buck or two out of it.

 

[luutzu]

We already help more than a few through the humanitarian component of our immigration intake.

The substance of your argument in your post above seems to be to justify opening the door to people smuggling on the basis that two (or more) wrongs make a right. There's a fundamental admission in that that you recognise what you are advocating is wrong.

What am I advocating?

Too much to ask that if people turn up seeking asylum, we sit them down and following international refugee convention that we're signatory to, that and just doing what any decent person would when someone run to them saying the bad people are after me, help me please...

Not too much to sit them down and ask so how are you a refugee and not coming over here to take my mates job and get fat and lazy on our soon to be non-existence welfare programme?

If we found that they are not genuine refugee... we can simply say, look Ahmad you're just an economic migrant and unlucky for you you got to uni degree and no dollars at the bank so we can't take that kind of economic migrants - we only want ones that's not hungry nor poor.

Since you're no refugee, got no cash, and our humanitarian fund is being spent all over Iraq and Syria to the tune of about $1billion since ISIS, IS, ISIL turn up a couple years ago... we're kinda low on liberating and humanitarian freedom fund building stuff. So off you go, nice try but sorry buddy.

If Ahmad is found to be a genuine refugee... well we can lock him up and wait til next calendar year where the new quota with appropriate mix of skilled and dollar rich economic migrants with appropriate skin tone and religion then maybe put him into one of the refugee headcounts.

Instead, we don't ask so we don't know... we bribe people smugglers and do all the brave and heroic stuff our leaders brags on about... then say, ey refos... see those illegals on those islands in those camps? Yea! some of them were children when they came and now they're children no more... so let that be a lesson to you! You want free and easy money? Got to have money first.