Al Qaeda

[Sean K]

Ha ha, Bullmarket, the quote he put there was from one of my posts. It's a paragraph out of Exodus, as quoted and unchanged.

Moses you are right about the OT. It's the Jewish guide to the world, but still the foundation of Christianity. I think we were talking any religion anyway, so the points still stick about religion condoning or encouraging the killing of 'innocent' people.

I thought that Islam accepted Christ as a prophet? Just not the Son of God, whoever that is! That's another disucssion....

 

[professor_frink]

bullmarket, you still implied that I could have made it up, regardless of how I quoted you. If I had known that you weren't reading the whole thread properly, then I would have put the name of the passage in. Because kennas had done it I thought you'd know what I was saying. Sorry I didn't realise. So here it is-

These are some of the rules that follow the ten commandments in Chapter 21:

21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
21:13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.
21:14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.
21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

This is a bit ambiguous isn't it? It was only a chapter ago he was saying 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' and now he's saying if you say bad words about your folkes you will be put to death? He should have stuck with the one rule I think, and not assisted the Israelites in killing so many people on the way to Palestine. He's lacking a bit of consistency and credibility Himself I reckon. If he was all powerful and omnipotent then He could have at least got the how to manual right in the first place.

So is it possible to get an answer now?

edit: sorry kennas didn't see you already posted it.

 

[bullmarket]

Hi kennas

Ha ha, Bullmarket, the quote he put there was from one of my posts. It's a paragraph out of Exodus, as quoted and unchanged.


I thought that Islam accepted Christ as a prophet? ...

PF could easily have posted where he got the extract from.

Does your reaction imply that all those that don't read your posts, should?

I can't speak for others, but for me personally there are much more important things going on to spend time on than reading anything, let alone everything, you post in here

I also thought Islam saw Jesus Christ as another prophet.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[bullmarket]

Hi Kennas

Originally Posted by Kennas
These are some of the rules that follow the ten commandments in Chapter 21:

21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
21:13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.
21:14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.
21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

This is a bit ambiguous isn't it? It was only a chapter ago he was saying 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' and now he's saying if you say bad words about your folkes you will be put to death? He should have stuck with the one rule I think, and not assisted the Israelites in killing so many people on the way to Palestine. He's lacking a bit of consistency and credibility Himself I reckon. If he was all powerful and omnipotent then He could have at least got the how to manual right in the first place.

One of the dangers when reading/interpreting the Bible is that people might interpret things too literally and so end up with a twisted interpretation of what was originally meant.

Now I'm no expert, but

21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

might not mean death in this life literally but imo it could also mean that those that curse, swindle, disrespect etc etc their parents will not achieve salvation.....ie....eternal life in heaven (or whatever your equivalent may be) but eternal life suffering unimaginable misery in hell (or again whatever your equivalent may be).

Imo the same interpretation of death could also be applied to the other references to death in the verses you quoted above.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[moses]

Moses you are right about the OT. It's the Jewish guide to the world, but still the foundation of Christianity.

I know what you mean, but I don't see it that way. I see Jesus Christ to be the foundation of Christianity, and the reason why the Bible was written. Why? Because if Jesus was a real historical figure, who really did miracles by the power of God ah la gospel story, and most importantly, if Jesus really was raised from the dead, then we really do have a basis for religious belief, and we really do have a reason to take the Bible seriously.

If not, then we don't.

Thats why the resurrection is so important to Christianity. If it is true, then God exists and loves us and everything and everyone matters. If it is not true, well, there is no future, no morals, nothing and nobody matters and we may as well just take what we want while we can.

I think we were talking any religion anyway, so the points still stick about religion condoning or encouraging the killing of 'innocent' people.

Do they? We may as well condemn the concept of government on the basis that governments condone or encourage the killing of innocent people.

Or men.

It is the character or philosophy of the religion, the government, the man, or whatever system under discussion that is the issue.

I thought that Islam accepted Christ as a prophet? Just not the Son of God, whoever that is! That's another disucssion....

True. But again, not accepting Jesus Christ as the Son of God is tantamount to not accepting Jesus Christ. Either his teaching has the primacy over other teachers and prophets because he is Son of God, or he is just expressing another opinion to be ignored when it doesn't suit us.

Anyway...as you said, another discussion!!

 

[bullmarket]

Hi moses

I see Jesus Christ to be the foundation of Christianity, and the reason why the Bible was written. Why? Because if Jesus was a real historical figure, who really did miracles by the power of God ah la gospel story, and most importantly, if Jesus really was raised from the dead, then we really do have a basis for religious belief, and we really do have a reason to take the Bible seriously.

:iagree: 100%...if the Resurrection never happened then the rest of the BIble is a load of rubbish, but if it did then you are right and we have a lot to look forward to in the next life if we live a 'good' life here.

Some food for thought:

Some say that the New Testament is actually contained in the Old Testament as a result of the writings of the various prophets and their prophecies in the Old Testament.

The Old Testament was written about 600BC and if by some chance the Old Testament was some sort of conspiracy by a group of prophets to con the rest of the world and future generations I find it impossible to believe that such a conspiracy would not have been found out and able to be continued for so many 100's of years to the birth of Jesus Christ and for the ~2000 years up to now.....(although I suppose the Da Vinci Code, although fiction, tries to create a conspiracy theory)

The fact, amongst others, that so many prophecies in the Old Testament are recorded as reality in the New Testament, ~600 yrs down the track, convince me that the events and teachings are true......but as I said above, when reading the Bible we should try to not take things too literally by applying today's meanings of words literally to English translations of documents that were written up to ~2600 years ago where people wrote in different styles than we do today.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[moses]

Yeah, I know that Thou Shalt Not Kill and should be the end of it but I wonder why God then tells Moses at other moments that certain transgressions by people are punishable by death. And all that other stuff I quoted from Deuteronomy about the killing of women and children. And didn't God send plagues plagues that kill all the first born and even frogs into Egypt to piss off the Pharaoh.

These are some of the rules that follow the ten commandments in Chapter 21:

21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
21:13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.
21:14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.
21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

This is a bit ambiguous isn't it? It was only a chapter ago he was saying 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' and now he's saying if you say bad words about your folkes you will be put to death? He should have stuck with the one rule I think, and not assisted the Israelites in killing so many people on the way to Palestine. He's lacking a bit of consistency and credibility Himself I reckon. If he was all powerful and omnipotent then He could have at least got the how to manual right in the first place.

I think it means quite literally what it says, but that it was designed to provoke another situation. Have you ever read what the New Testament says about this?

Rom 5:20 Now the law came in so that the transgression may increase...

So, like, before we dismiss God for inconsistency, are we sure we have any idea what God was trying to acheive? What makes us think Exodus was just a simple how-to manual?

Would you believe that Moses' law was set up to create these sorts of difficult situations to force people to look for answers beyond mere obedience to a set of rules? For example, to help people to get over the shallow idea that all we need to do is obey a set of rules (go to church, pay our taxes, don't kill or steal etc) and God will owe us eternal life.

What pathetic sort of God would that be? What pathetic sort of creatures would we be?

Moses

 

[Bobby]

Well bull tell us more about your theology interpretations ?
Maybe a interdict or two just to control outhers.

Bob.

 

[Sean K]

Gents,

You both seem to be sure that we can't lead a good life if we don't follow a religion and that the world would be an unethical, crazy place without a God sitting in judgement. It's a big call when we haven't had the opportunity to actually live God free yet. Although, I can not see that ever happening. It's the greatest ever human invention.

IMHO a better approach would be to come up with an ethical, logical, just, set of laws relating to how human beings can best live on the planet in harmony and where the 'good' is what is 'good' for the greatest number. A life lived in this world, not for life after death. I think we're wasting our time on this rock as soon as we start preparing for an afterworld. Heaven was invented as a means of encouraging people to follow the laws of the day, and to make them feel warm and fuzzy in the face of the one certainty of life: Death. I don't need to be good so I get to heaven. I will be good, so that the people around me live a good live, which ultimately leads to my life being good. It's that simple.

While we continue to believe in a supernatural diety out in the cosmos interrferring in the Earths natural state, and judging people for their worthiness to get into heaven, the world will continue to be in the diabolical state it is now. Obviously, the religions we have now have flaws in them or they are used in a way to cause unwarranted pain, death and destruction. Examples of some of the atrocities committed by each of the religions of the book are scattered throughout this thread. Athough, who can say that we wouldn't be doing these things anyway! We are all trying to survive in some way. Some better than others and thus, conflict.

If there was a God as described in the religions of the book, why is he allowing most of the world to go on in disbelief and suffering. The 'you have to have faith' line does not wash for me because it's just an easy way to convince people of something without providing proof. It's the ultimate placebo actually.

So, who is my God? Humanity is my God. Let's find the right human laws that are best for us in this life and worship those.

But, maybe I'm going to hell......

 

[bullmarket]

Well bull tell us more about your theology interpretations ?
Maybe a interdict or two just to control outhers.

Bob.

bobby - that would be going seriously off topic for this thread and I'm not convinced you are genuinely interested anyway, but if you are then start a new thread.

bullmarket

 

[wayneL]

Posted purely for interest, and not in either camp:

FWIW

'I've Found God' Says Man
Who Cracked Genome
By Steven Swinford
The Sunday Times
6-11-6

THE scientist who led the team that cracked the human genome is to publish a book explaining why he now believes in the existence of God and is convinced that miracles are real.

Francis Collins, the director of the US National Human Genome Research Institute, claims there is a rational basis for a creator and that scientific discoveries bring man "closer to God".

His book, The Language of God, to be published in September, will reopen the age-old debate about the relationship between science and faith. "One of the great tragedies of our time is this impression that has been created that science and religion have to be at war," said Collins, 56.

"I don't see that as necessary at all and I think it is deeply disappointing that the shrill voices that occupy the extremes of this spectrum have dominated the stage for the past 20 years."

For Collins, unravelling the human genome did not create a conflict in his mind. Instead, it allowed him to "glimpse at the workings of God".

"When you make a breakthrough it is a moment of scientific exhilaration because you have been on this search and seem to have found it," he said. "But it is also a moment where I at least feel closeness to the creator in the sense of having now perceived something that no human knew before but God knew all along.

"When you have for the first time in front of you this 3.1 billion-letter instruction book that conveys all kinds of information and all kinds of mystery about humankind, you can't survey that going through page after page without a sense of awe. I can't help but look at those pages and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind."

Collins joins a line of scientists whose research deepened their belief in God. Isaac Newton, whose discovery of the laws of gravity reshaped our understanding of the universe, said: "This most beautiful system could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful being."

Although Einstein revolutionised our thinking about time, gravity and the conversion of matter to energy, he believed the universe had a creator. "I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details," he said. However Galileo was famously questioned by the inquisition and put on trial in 1633 for the "heresy" of claiming that the earth moved around the sun.

Among Collins's most controversial beliefs is that of "theistic evolution", which claims natural selection is the tool that God chose to create man. In his version of the theory, he argues that man will not evolve further.

"I see God's hand at work through the mechanism of evolution. If God chose to create human beings in his image and decided that the mechanism of evolution was an elegant way to accomplish that goal, who are we to say that is not the way," he says.

"Scientifically, the forces of evolution by natural selection have been profoundly affected for humankind by the changes in culture and environment and the expansion of the human species to 6 billion members. So what you see is pretty much what you get."

Collins was an atheist until the age of 27, when as a young doctor he was impressed by the strength that faith gave to some of his most critical patients.

"They had terrible diseases from which they were probably not going to escape, and yet instead of railing at God they seemed to lean on their faith as a source of great comfort and reassurance," he said. "That was interesting, puzzling and unsettling."

He decided to visit a Methodist minister and was given a copy of C S Lewis's Mere Christianity, which argues that God is a rational possibility. The book transformed his life. "It was an argument I was not prepared to hear," he said. "I was very happy with the idea that God didn't exist, and had no interest in me. And yet at the same time, I could not turn away."

His epiphany came when he went hiking through the Cascade Mountains in Washington state. He said: "It was a beautiful afternoon and suddenly the remarkable beauty of creation around me was so overwhelming, I felt, 'I cannot resist this another moment'."

Collins believes that science cannot be used to refute the existence of God because it is confined to the "natural" world. In this light he believes miracles are a real possibility. "If one is willing to accept the existence of God or some supernatural force outside nature then it is not a logical problem to admit that, occasionally, a supernatural force might stage an invasion," he says.

 

[Bobby]

What pathetic sort of God would that be? What pathetic sort of creatures would we be?

Moses

There are many good humans who don't believe in god .
They are not pathetic !

There are many doing bad deeds that do believe in god .
They are pathetic ?

Bob.

 

[bullmarket]

Hi kennas

just a few comments about parts of your previous post:

It's the greatest ever human invention.

If you are referring to God, then I disagree because I believe God created us and the planet we live on etc etc and not the other way round.......but obviously many don't.....

If there was a God as described in the religions of the book, why is he allowing most of the world to go on in disbelief and suffering. The 'you have to have faith' line does not wash for me because it's just an easy way to convince people of something without providing proof. It's the ultimate placebo actually.

The way I look at this one is to go back to the story of Adam and Eve (obviously many will think this is a load of rubbish - but each to their own ).

In Adam and Eve's day they were living in paradise with no illnesses, hatred, wars, droughts, famines etc etc until that fateful day when Eve was tempted into taking a bite from that apple. After that all bets were off so to speak. Adam and Eve failed the test that God had put before them to not take the apple and so as punishment mankind from then on had to earn the right to eternal life in paradise, heaven call it what you prefer. To earn that right mankind has to endure and get through sometimes immense hardships and tests/temptations in this world without failing them. As I see it, the first and most fundamental test is to have faith in God and to then do what He has taught and shown us...for example in the Bible, esepcially in the New Testament.

So all the hatred, drought, famines, evil, crime and suffering we have in the world today are simply tests to see who can get through them, by either enduring them or for those much more fortunate doing things to ease them, without losing their faith in the face of what is going on and the temptations around them imo.

Now, obviously those that don't believe the story of Adam and Eve will say the above is a load of horse manure, but what if the the story of Adam and Eve is true ??

cheers

bullmarket

 

[stockGURU]

Now, obviously those that don't believe the story of Adam and Eve will say the above is a load of horse manure, but what if the the story of Adam and Eve is true ??

The thing is bullmarket, not too many stories of paradise on earth, a woman being made out of a man's rib and talking serpents turn out to be true, do they?

 

[bullmarket]

hi stockguru

I don't see what you are getting at because obviously I have no more proof that it is true then you have that it isn't true

But as I said in an earlier post, we should be careful to not interpret what we read in the Bible too literally given that a lot of it was written at ~600BC where writing styles were very much different to today and on top of that you have English translations of documents written in ancient languages.

I believe the overall story is true, but whether the minute fine details described are 100% accurate is irrelevant to me as they don't change the meaning of what is being told...........but it's each to their own on this one and what they choose to believe and what they don't believe.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[The Mint Man]

Is 'big mouth' causing trouble again guys?
he obviously becomes frustrated very easily and takes things out of context all the time. You only have to read through recent threads where he posted to see this, having a big cry to to moderators etc. I think theres a job going at the local Kleenex factory by the way.
IMO he is the god of hypocrisy, always right, never wrong even when he contradicts himself.

example:
It would be like me saying: 'I dont like fish and chips but I love eating fish'...
Then professor_frink comes in and quotes me

I dont like fish and chips

saying 'how can you love eating fish then Mint Man'
Mint Man: 'Ohhh thats it.. now your just taking what I said out of context PF' :swear:
END OF Example

Anyway can anyone proove to me that jesus/god is real? besides a book!
Give me something hard like dinosaur bones!

Well thats my gotta get back to reading The Da Vinci Code and watching brokeback mountain. Oh **** thats right gotta remind my girl to take the pill tonight but if she gets pregers theres always RU486 to fall back on, few.... Thank GOD for that stuff.

PS:True story, I went to church every week for the best part of 4 years.

 

[bullmarket]

Hi Mint Man

 

[Sean K]

Bullmarket,

I think you hit the nail on the head with 'the meaning of what was being told'. Sorry, can't do the quote thing yet.

Most of the stories of in the bible are analogies to convery a message. Nothing more. Unfortunately, some are taken to have actually occurred, so then you have the various interpretations of what was really said or meant. Problem.

Have I mentioned I'm writing a book about all of this? Obviously it's not very good. I think you will now be a character. Not sure if I'll call you Bullmarket though...

 

[bullmarket]

ok thanks kennas

if I'm in your book, does that mean I get a % of the royalties??

cheers

bullmarket

 

[Bobby]

bobby - that would be going seriously off topic for this thread and I'm not convinced you are genuinely interested anyway, but if you are then start a new thread.

bullmarket

Your right , a new thread is the answer, through it we could find a covenant of the imposition of religion.

Now all we need is a thread title Humm?
How about bulls gerrymander on religious theme's :

Bob.