Al Qaeda

[Sean K]

Bullmarket, yes I am. The world is quite arbitrary. Chaos abounds. God does not interfere in the everyday events of humans. It's fruitless to pray to something that will not assist. Unless, you're saying he does? Then I suppose it's different. Then, it means that those who do not pray, or have faith will be punished. Like me and my bad back! Ouch, I need an antiinflamatory. Or, I should pray!

 

[The Mint Man]

if a baby dies before it has had an opportunity to be baptised then my understanding is that it will go to heaven

Cool! My thinking was along those lines aswell... this subject is close to home.

 

[The Mint Man]

on another note,
what about a child that dosn't have a choice and is not baptised? what about them?
as they cant exactly say ' see ya mum and daddyO, just goin down to the local church to be baptised'... 'might stop off at the pub on the way home'(ignore that last bit)

 

[bullmarket]

Hi kennas

Bullmarket, yes I am. The world is quite arbitrary. Chaos abounds. God does not interfere in the everyday events of humans. It's fruitless to pray to something that will not assist. Unless, you're saying he does?......................

I disagree. I believe God can and does 'interfere' with our daily lives if He chooses to.....................and please don't ask me how He decides who and how to help because I'm not a mind reader and I don't have an answer for that one. :

Personally, I believe that anyone with a genuine faith and belief in God will have their prayers answered but not always with the answer they like ...........a bit like a 6 year old continously nagging mum for lollies but rarely being given any

cheers

bullmarket

 

[visual]

Bullmarket, yes I am. The world is quite arbitrary. Chaos abounds. God does not interfere in the everyday events of humans. It's fruitless to pray to something that will not assist. Unless, you're saying he does? Then I suppose it's different. Then, it means that those who do not pray, or have faith will be punished. Like me and my bad back! Ouch, I need an antiinflamatory. Or, I should pray!

Kennas,are you expecting some kind of personal service,your bad back could be the result of misdiagnosis,possible.Or you doing something wrong and damaging it,surely you dont expect God to protect you from yourself?Just asking :

 

[bullmarket]

Hi MM

on another note,
what about a child that dosn't have a choice and is not baptised? what about them?
as they cant exactly say ' see ya mum and daddyO, just goin down to the local church to be baptised'... 'might stop off at the pub on the way home'(ignore that last bit)

sorry MM but I really don't know what the answer to that one is I suppose it depends on the age of the child and whether they genuinely have an opportunity to be baptised or not.

imo, maybe google the www for baptism and/or pop back and visit your local parish priest and ask him. I'm sure he will be able to give you much more reliable info than I can on your above scenario.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[Sean K]

Mint Man, These are great points and display another chink in the religion armour. This is not easily explained away.

One classic thing in Islam is that if a woman is menstruating during Ramadan then they can not be 'clean' during the month which means they can not satisfy the requirements of one of the Five Pillas. In extremist Islam this means that women will always be inferior to men because they cannot satisfy the faith. This is true! They have overcome this in more modern, moderate, Islamic countries like Indonesia by saying that if a women is mentruating, she must make up for that time of being 'unclean' at the end of Ramadan. So, effectively, they just do a few days more fasting to get the required tick in the box. Another great example of the religion been designed by men for men at a time where women were virtually slaves. And in Sharia, are.

 

[Rafa]

will try to answer both your comments...

What I do dislike intensely is organised, dogmatic extreme religion of all varieties. Don't care whether it's Christianity, Islam or anything else.
This inevitably involves zealots who are intent on converting everyone else to their way of thinking and will go to all sorts of lengths to achieve that end.

Spot on... i think we are both in agreement on that one...

Rafa in regards to your quote:
Are you saying that you don't follow the law of the day, just what's in the Good Book?

Yes, tho by Good Book, I don't mean the Bible, only the first 4 books of the New Testament... I certainly don't follow the Old Testament, which is what Sharia Law is based on....

I think if you read just those 4 books, and I know the Prof has taken up the challenge, you might be pleasantly surprised...

And, I don't give thanks to God for anything....

Having that perspective on the world will mean we treat one another and nature in much higher regard and respect and the world will be a better place. IMHO, of course.

personally, i trust GOD more than fellow humans... and kind actions of humans are God working thru them... but we are both entitled to our individual opinions there...

re the miners... well, again, I thank GOD for all the good things that happen to me and all the bad things... I am an eternal optimist and believe everything happens for the best... including the current stock market crash, :swear: :swear: :swear: even tho it hasn't done me any good, i am sure there is a reason for it!!!! Hmmm!!!

and finally...

I'm happy for everyone to believe whatever they want and to privately practice what makes them feel good. But, just like our taste in food, fashion or sexual preference, we shouldn't try to force it onto others or condemn them because they don't share our convictions.

I agree with that, but can I just be the devils advocat, so to speak, and ask you this question...

Your conviction is ‘Love thy Neighbour…etc, etc ‘ right? Is there any good in you following the 'Love thy neighbour...' principle, but your neighbour following the Law of the Jungle... i.e. strike first, survival...., whatever...???

There is a good chance you might get clobbered on the head one day for ticking him off!

Hence, Julia, (and Kennas and others), I think its in your best interest to spread your message of Love thy Neighbour, to the whole world, cause its only when the whole world understands that message, can you expect that way of life, to become reality...

I'll leave you with that thought...

 

[Sean K]

Visual, It's my mums fault I have a bad back. And playing Australian Football. My cousin, the born again minister, was sure he could fix me during a 'healing' ceremony though. Red wine helps with the back too...

 

[bullmarket]

Hi kenna

Mint Man, These are great points and display another chink in the religion armour. This is not easily explained away.....................

Imo the answer to the first point MM raised is straight forward and I gave it.

His second point most probably has a straight forward answer as well but I don't know what it is without googling or asking a priest as I suggested as an option to MM ......maybe someone else here can help MM out with the answer.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[Sean K]

Rafa, Yes, love is the answer. Unfortunetly, my love is in India at the moment so I just have to talk to you characters.

 

[visual]

Visual, It's my mums fault I have a bad back. And playing Australian Football. My cousin, the born again minister, was sure he could fix me during a 'healing' ceremony though. Red wine helps with the back too...

So really you are determined to blame someone anyone for your back.
And as for this great healer,what made you think he could fix your back,he sounds like someone quite prepared to use religion as a deceiving tool,again a man foible nothing to do with God or anyone else.,
As for the red wine,its good even without a bad back,or do you reckon I`d enjoy it more if I had a bad back,just jocking

 

[Rafa]

Kennas, on the bright side, that should help your bad back...

 

[Sean K]

Visual, I've got a sore wrist too though so it's all bad.

 

[Sean K]

Ooops, I meant Rafa. This damn Shiraz!

 

[Sean K]

:goodnight :goodnight

 

[yogi-in-oz]

Rafa


I am actually agnostic - I have no idea if there is a God or not. I have complete respect for anyone who says "I believe in God. I cannot explain it and I cannot prove it. That is the nature of faith". Fine. That's a personal belief.

I'd genuinely like to know more about what having this sort of faith means in people's lives and if anyone feels like sharing that, then I'd be grateful.
e.g. is it because it gives your life a sense of structure? A sense of not having to make some decisions because God has a plan for you which you cannot alter? A sense of comfort when things are tough that you have some sort of spiritual father figure? Anything else?

Julia

Hi Julia,

..... addressing the questions you have raised is a worthwhile
exercise for all of us, but Christians especially, as it affords
them an opportunity for some personal and timely introspection.

=====

Is it because it gives your life a sense of structure?

Yes ... it's partly a sense of being able to place ourselves within the framework
of God's plan for us, helps us to know ourselves better and position ourselves
for living in the light of Christ, using the Holy Trinity as our life guide.

Seeking out and exploiting our natural and learned talents, to achieve our own
proper goals is within God's overall plan for this world.

=====

A sense of not having to make some decisions because God has a plan for you which you cannot alter?

On the contrary, it is because we DO HAVE CHOICE in every
move we make, that Christians have to make very conscious
decisions, in a continuous battle between right and wrong.

Fortunately, we all know the difference, between right and
wrong or goodness and evil, Since the Crucifixion, we have
had the support of the Trinity, by the work of the Holy Spirit
within us all .... part of its job, is to continuously make us
aware of right and wrong as we make the hundreds of
choices, that we must face in our daily routine.

So, while God may have an overall life plan for us to live in a Christ-like
manner and be delivered to Him in the End Times, we have TOTAL control
over the DECISIONS we make, about HOW our individual lives will unfold.

=====

A sense of comfort when things are tough that you have some sort of spiritual father figure?

Having FAITH is only ONE of the many intangibles that help to mould
Christian lives, with many others coming into play, like HOPE, LOVE,
CHARITY, FORGIVENESS, HONESTY, PATIENCE and PRAYER .... and
there may be others that you can add yourself, as well .....

W.D. Gann's last book "THE MAGIC WORD" (pp 33-40) lists many Bible
quotes, but there's one particular quote by Paul in 1 Cor 13:13 that seems
to stand out in the chiastic structure, in Chapters 12, 13 and 14.

In context, Chapter 13 deals with the intangible gifts mentioned above,
but the central theme is summed up very well, in 1 Cor 13:13 ... :

"Meanwhile, these three remain; FAITH, HOPE and LOVE; and the
greatest of these is LOVE."

.... LOVE being the CENTRAL THEME of the chiasm in 1 Cor 12, 13 and 14,
where we read about those intangible gifts, that we ALL receive from the
Holy Spirit.

Since we all possess these gifts through God's Grace, it is natuiral for us
to lean on Him, especially when we are procrastinating over some tough
decision.

=====

Anything else?

Sin has also been raised in this thread and it is an issue that we all face on a
continual basis, when making our everyday decisions.

If we view the Bible, as a history of the heavens and earth, then Genesis
gives us Creation, including the animals and finally humankind.

Those animals, as they continue even today, were sinless creatures.

In contrast, humans were given higher intelligence, including the faculty of
reason, which also brought with it responsibility for ALL the decisions we
make in our lives.

Since Adam was disobedient and responsible for the decision that led
to the Original Sin, all of Adam's descendants (all of us) have the trait
of sinners within us ..... this is part of the concept, as we learn of the
Church (community), as a corporate body.

Fortunately Christians believe, that God loves humans so much, that he
was prepared to sacrifice Christ, His Son so that ALL of OUR sins have
ALREADY been forgiven ..... all that is required of Christians, is to
BELIEVE and ACCEPT Christ, as our Saviour.

=====

Before signing off, here's a short story about how we can learn about
the value and power of LOVE for each other ..... and it can surface in
our lives, when it is least expected ..... !~!

For example just yesterday, we had occasion to visit a 42 year-old woman
with both physical and mental disabilities, in an effort to resolve a bungle,
where her husband/carer has been denied access to his wife.

As a result of a restraining order not being lifted from the husband, even
after it had been so ordered by the courts, it has caused both husband
and wife considerable anxst, as it is the wish of both husband and his
wife to be reunited, ASAP.

To hear how this woman spoke about the LOVE for her husband, during
the course of the interview, was just amazing. Despite having 3 other
carers attend to her needs throughout any week, the only one that she
really wants in her life, is her husband/carer.

"He is always so kind to me and I just love him soooo much", probably
does not convey the message as well as the tone of her voice and her body
language, as she clutched her heart, every time she spoke about him.

Enough.

=====

Of course, there's much more to say on many issues, that
have been raised in this thread, but we end this note here for
fear of boring other people, with an extended monologue,
that some may construe as a sermon ..... lol ...


have a great day

yogi

 

[Julia]

Hello Yogi

Thank you. You've made a really genuine effort to explain what your beliefs mean to you. I suspect you would act in a moral way anyway, without the need for the religious reinforcement, but completely respect your point of view, largely because you don't make any attempt to be evangelistic about what you believe.

All the best and thanks for your response.

Julia

 

[Sean K]

Ooooh, Yogi, I wish I could respond but this is the Al Qaeda thread.

 

[bullmarket]

well said yogi

cheers

bullmarket