Al Qaeda

[bullmarket]

Hi kennas

I think much of the killing done 'in the name of religion', has occurred when tribal leaders needed some extra tool to motivate the troops. I think Moses leading the Israelites out of the Sinai and marching on Palestine and having Yahweh (who was the original God of War for the Pagans and somewhere in history turned into the One God) assisting them is a good case in point. They killed a lot of people with Yahweh's assistance. But, Yahweh didn't really tell Moses from the Burning Bush to go and kill everything in sight on the way to The Promised Land. No, Moses made it up to get support from the troops and make them fight hard for his cause!

Of course at that time he was also telling his troops to hand over their first born sons to be sacrificed to God. Or, they could get their kids back if they handed over 10 silver pieces...Nice work Moses! That'd be worth a bit at today's prices.

What strange creatures we are.

The Book of Exodus (supposedly written by Moses) gives a slightly different version of events to what you describe above.

The Book of Exodus is in the Bible's Old Testament if anyone wants to read what really happened.....it looks to me you are twisting reality....but you are entitled to your 'interpretation' just like I and everyone else I guess

cheers

bullmarket

 

[visual]

Professor fink,
did you know that racism is also man made,in fact we are all from the same race,Over the centuries people have adapted to the climate where they settled ,we all came from africa,Cant remember what university did this study,remember black people were though to be less intelligent because of their head shape and hence their brain was suppoded to be different,wrong,not true by the time this was discovered the book had been printed, I kid you not and once the theory began circulating it was too late to stop.Sounds a bit like religion doesnt it,if people want to manipulate they will,as you said we have just chosen to pay attention to the parts that make us feel good.Islam,i reckon it just needs a good pr.woman and then its all level,

 

[Sean K]

I've read Exodus a few times, but I don't have a copy on me to quote directly. The statement was meant more as a general account of the situation than 'factual' events. I can't remember what Yahweh told Moses from the burning bush, or from Mt Sinai or from the Tent. All places only he and sometimes Aron were allowed to go, so we only know what they reckon He said. I do believe the price for a return of your boy was 10 silver pieces though.

 

[professor_frink]

so the onus is on you to prove your statement is correct and accurate if you want me to take it seriously and until you do I will continue to believe that what you said is simply not true

Once again a well thought out comment bullmarket :swear:

re your comment:

2. There are quotes from all of the religious texts promoting this as acceptable.

- I don't believe this is true at all.

You said you don't belive it to be true. I have already posted quotes from the koran pointing out that it is. You said you still don't belive it to be true. I ask for more information as to why you think this, and the onus is still on me? Give me a break bullmarket, can't you come up with a proper argument, rather than just trying to shift people's attention away from the fact that there is no actual reason for your statements.

The 'violence' you are referring to above I assume is in reply to my view that no religion promotes the murder of innocent people.

re your comment:

Because of what reasons bullmarket? I can't find any.

The reasons for my views are in my original and subsequent posts.

Once again bullmarket, there are no reasons in your posts. You have posted an opinion in your first post. I challenged that opinion and gave evidence to the contrary. You are still to give a reason for any of your opinions.

We obviously disagree on whether religion itself is the cause of the problems in the world today. You are entitled to your view and I don't have a problem with that. All I am saying is that my view is different as a result of the reasons in my earlier post

cheers

bullmarket

Once again, what reasons for your view? There aren't any. The only thing we can agree on is that we have a different view. Except I have given a reason for mine.

 

[bullmarket]

ok no problem kenna

but when you make statements like this one:

But, Yahweh didn't really tell Moses from the Burning Bush to go and kill everything in sight on the way to The Promised Land. No, Moses made it up to get support from the troops and make them fight hard for his cause!

and then tell me that:

I can't remember what Yahweh told Moses from the burning bush, or from Mt Sinai or from the Tent.

no offence, but you then loose all credibility imo.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[professor_frink]

Professor frink,
did you know that racism is also man made,in fact we are all from the same race,Over the centuries people have adapted to the climate where they settled ,we all came from africa,Cant remember what university did this study,remember black people were though to be less intelligent because of their head shape and hence their brain was suppoded to be different,wrong,not true by the time this was discovered the book had been printed, I kid you not and once the theory began circulating it was too late to stop.Sounds a bit like religion doesnt it,if people want to manipulate they will,as you said we have just chosen to pay attention to the parts that make us feel good.Islam,i reckon it just needs a good pr.woman and then its all level,

well said visual.

 

[bullmarket]

Hi PF

I think you're just going round in circles now

You are the one who made the statement:

There are quotes from all of the religious texts promoting this as acceptable.

and you seem a little upset that I don't believe you....no-one is under any obligation to blindly believe what see/read in chatrooms. If you want me to take you seriously you're going to have to come up with proof supporting your statement.

I gave the reasons for my views in my earlier posts. Others understand the reasons I gave, but if you can't find them or if you disagree with them or don't believe them then so be it

cheers

bullmarket

 

[Sean K]

No Bullmarket, you misinterpreted my comments. I meant that Moses did say that Yahweh told him to take the Holy Lands, but I don't have exact quotes. As I said I don't have the book on me. I'll find it for you. Wait, out.

 

[bullmarket]

No Bullmarket, you misinterpreted my comments. I meant that Moses did say that Yahweh told him to take the Holy Lands, but I don't have exact quotes. As I said I don't have the book on me. I'll find it for you. Wait, out.

kennas - I don't think I misinterpreted anything at all. Your version of events and what Exodus states are different.

You originally posted:

But, Yahweh didn't really tell Moses from the Burning Bush to go and kill everything in sight on the way to The Promised Land. No, Moses made it up to get support from the troops and make them fight hard for his cause!

and Exodus tells a different story. I don't think Moses made anything up as you suggested.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[professor_frink]

Hi PF

I think you're just going round in circles now

I'm going round in circles now? that's the funniest thing I've read today!

You are the one who made the statement:

There are quotes from all of the religious texts promoting this as acceptable.

and you seem a little upset that I don't believe you....no-one is under any obligation to blindly believe what see/read in chatrooms. If you want me to take you seriously you're going to have to come up with proof supporting your statement.

I'm not upset bullmarket. It takes alot more than your childish ramblings to make me upset. I've spent most of the afternoon laughing at you, not getting angry. What kind of proof would you like? Were my previous quotes from the koran not enough, or do I have to go and get some from the bible as well. I think even if I do you won't believe me.
"talk sense to a fool and he will call you foolish"
It's probably best that you don't agree with me.

I gave the reasons for my views in my earlier posts. Others understand the reasons I gave, but if you can't or if you disagree with them or don't believe them then so be it

cheers

bullmarket

Would you care to repost these reasons? I can't see them. Opinion is not reason bullmarket.

 

[Sean K]

This is just some of the drivel that was said to Moses. From where it isn't clear. I suppose you could interpret this in different ways but it reads to me like Yahweh is telling Moses that he is to wreak havok on Palestine. That would include killing the odd Jebusite or two I imagine.

Exodus Chapter 23

But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23:23
For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
23:24
Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
23:25
And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
23:26
There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil.
23:27
I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.
23:28
And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.
23:29
I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee.
23:30
By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.
23:31
And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.
23:32
Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
23:33
They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.

 

[professor_frink]

I'll leave this debate with this-

And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

love thy brother!

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

very peaceful.

2:33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
2:35 Only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we took.
2:36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us

sounds rather like genocide.

I know it's not proof enough for bullmarket, because he won't be able to verify this, or the other quotes from the koran, but my lack of sleep has caught up with me and I ain't gunna wait around for another B.S reply. It's been fun folks

 

[Sean K]

How about this one from Deuteronomy Chapter 2:

31 The LORD said to me, "See, I have begun to deliver Sihon and his country over to you. Now begin to conquer and possess his land."

32 When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, 33 the LORD our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed [c] them””men, women and children. We left no survivors. 35 But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. 36 From Aroer on the rim of the Arnon Gorge, and from the town in the gorge, even as far as Gilead, not one town was too strong for us. The LORD our God gave us all of them.

Holy Cow man!!! This is the bible!!!!!!!!!!!! Better do some more reading Bullmarket.

 

[bullmarket]

no prob PF

But you made a statement ealier saying that:

There are quotes from all of the religious texts promoting this as acceptable.

and you still haven't provided proof that this statement is true and so all I am saying is that I don't believe what you say is true.

For some reason, judging by your posts, it seems important to you that I believe you - so in that case simply provide proof to back up your statement above and so far you're not even close

What you have provided are selected extracts, none of which show that any religion promotes as acceptable the murder of innocent people.

From memory, isn't one of the Ten Commandments : 'Thou shalt not kill'

Imo that commandment shoots down any 'interpretation' you may have that murdering innocent people is acceptable by any, let alone all religions

sweet dreams

bullmarket

 

[bullmarket]

hi kennas

I'm not sure what point you are making.

I didn't say the Bible is innacurate.

What I said was that your original version of events is different to what is in Exodus....nothing more, nothing less....and you then tried to change your original story by posting what you 'meant' to say in a subsequent post.....

As I said earlier, getting it wrong like you did takes away any credibility you might have had.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[visual]

Kenna,this has been interesting,reminded me why I couldnt ever read the bible past the first page.
Basically the only difference here is that the koran is still being mainly interpreted literally and Christians have learned to interpret the bible with discretion .

 

[Sean K]

He he Bull, Playing your little games again.

Your quote previously:

"and Exodus tells a different story. I don't think Moses made anything up as you suggested."

You're telling me that what Moses says in Exodus is factual? The truth? The events actually occurred as written? Holy cow man get a grip. Next thing you know you'll be telling me that 2 of every animal actually fitted on Noah's Arc, and Moses did actually part the Red Sea.

My point was that Moses was using God as a tool to succeed in getting the Israelites out of the crappy mess they were in by attacking the tribes living in Palestine and taking their nice fertile land off them. God 'assisted them' and gave them 'authority' to invade and destroy the tribes mentioned. God was their 'secret weapon' which Moses seemed to use to good effect. The Sinai Peninsula is not a place to spend too much quality time. Except for the diving. Very good. IMHO of course!

 

[professor_frink]

But you made a statement ealier saying that:

There are quotes from all of the religious texts promoting this as acceptable.

and you still haven't provided proof that this statement is true and so all I am saying is that I don't believe what you say is true.

bullmarket,
Before you repeated this again for about the fifth time, I wasn't sure if you were unintelligent or just mildly annoying. Now I know. I was finding your argument amusing before you started repeating it over and over again. It's almost like a small child having an argument with one of their kindergarten friends. " I know you are but what am I" repeated over and again until one grows tired of it and quits. Alright I'm over it.

Saying the same thing repeatedly is one way to wear down someone during a discussion, and if that makes you feel better then good for you. The fact that you aren't well liked on these boards should give you an indication that this method of arguing isn't going down well with others, and it would be best to stop.
Now I know your going to say "you haven't given me verifiable proof that no one likes me", but you'll just have to take my word for it on this one.

The sad thing is bullmarket, there have been numerous discussions on these forums that you have highjacked with this childish method of arguing, and it ends up driving people away. It's now at the stage where a discussion can go on, and people with opposing views can have a reasonable discussion about them until you show up. Then we might as well close the thread down and wait for you to destroy the next discussion. Just like this thread.

 

[Sean K]

Yes visual, but I think they are both used when it suits us in justifying some action. We are definately more secular in the West, even though our laws are built on Christain ideals to some degree.

A bad example of the Bible being used today might be the Pope using the Bible to justify not using condoms. The Catholic Church are probably contributing a great deal to the spread of AIDS through Africa and Sth America atm.

 

[bullmarket]

Hi PF

I said in earlier post that if you have a different view to mine then that is fine by me and yet you kept on posting trying to convince me that your statement:

There are quotes from all of the religious texts promoting this as acceptable.

is true and you still haven't provided any proof that it is

As I said earlier, imo the Commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' shoots down any 'interpretation' you might have.

Imo you're the one being childish by not providing proof to back up your statement and then getting frustrated when I don't believe you

You then went on to say you're leaving this debate and your frustrations then brought you back in - and still without any proof to back up any of your statements.

As I said in earlier, if you disagree with my views then that is fine by me - you are entitled to your views just like anyone else and the sooner you accept that I and everyone else are under no obligation to blindly believe what you or I or anyone posts in chatrooms, the less frustrated at me you will be

good luck

bullmarket