Al Qaeda

[professor_frink]

Just some food for thought to ponder:

what if there actually is a God and He requires us to have faith and belief in Him whether we live good wholesome lives in this world or not before we could have any chance of eternal life in heaven or whatever your equivalent might be.

cheers

bullmarket

As someone who has looked at religion and made the choice of not choosing one, I am curious to hear more about this from you, or anyone else on this board that is religious(moses maybe?). Questions-
1. Do you believe that muslims, christians, jews or any other religion are all worshipping the same god in different ways?
2. If the answer to the above question is yes, do you believe you all have a right to heaven in the afterlife, regardless of differing beliefs within each religion?
4. Or do you believe that as long as someone is worshipping "a god" of somekind that they will be granted a passage to heaven?
5. Is it at all possible, that because the bible and other religious texts are texts written by men, for men, that relgious people of all kinds may be living in a way that is not appropriate enough enjoy the afterlife in heaven?

Any opinions anyone?

 

[dj_420]

Prof Frink

I feel that religion has a common thread, and that is faith. no matter what religion you believe in, it is all about having faith in something. i am a christian and i believe in god. i feel that others are entitled to their own beliefs and to should not be crucified for what they believe in. isnt heaven a different definition in every religion??

 

[bullmarket]

Hi PF

These are just my views on your questions and not attempts to impose them on anyone else.

1. Do you believe that muslims, christians, jews or any other religion are all worshipping the same god in different ways?

I believe in the God that is referred to in the Bible. I don't know enough about Islam to form an opinion on whether its God is the same as the one referred to in the Bible but I suspect it isn't solely because Islam does not recognise Jesus Christ as the Son of God (as he is referred to in the Bible) but as just another prophet like Moses.

2. If the answer to the above question is yes, do you believe you all have a right to heaven in the afterlife, regardless of differing beliefs within each religion?

I guess my answer to Q1 is more of a no.

4. Or do you believe that as long as someone is worshipping "a god" of somekind that they will be granted a passage to heaven?

I believe that anyone who has access to learning about and following the God in the Bible but chooses, for whatever reason, to either reject Him or worship some other god will have no chance of eternal life in 'heaven' and I believe this solely because that is what Jesus Christ preached......so it's each to their own beliefs and choices on this one. I'm not trying to impose my view on this.

5. Is it at all possible, that because the bible and other religious texts are texts written by men, for men, that relgious people of all kinds may be living in a way that is not appropriate enough enjoy the afterlife in heaven?

Firstly I disagree with "....the bible and other religious texts are texts written by men, for men,......". The Catholic Church, at least, teaches that although the Old and New Testaments were written by men, the teachings, events, experiences recorded by the prophets, apostles etc are all inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit (the Holy Spirit being the 3rd person in the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

Therefore imo all the information someone needs to enable them to live a life that will give them a chance for eternal life in heaven is contained in the Bible which although physically written by men is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

So finally, before someone tries to jump down my throat the above are just my views on PF's questions and not an attempt to impose my views on anyone else.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[Sean K]

I think everyones personal God is different in some way and the concept of God is still evolving as we speak. Every culture has a different understanding of the Ultimate and it changes to suit current needs. We shouldn't be limiting our discussion on the 'religions of the book' either because every indigenous culture has a concept of God, or Gods. Is he an old man with a long flowing beard, or the sun, or love, or an unseen entity floating about through everything? Answer, none of the above. He is whatever you believe it is!

I agree that faith is a very important aspect when defining what is religion and it's my absolute pet hate of the entire concept. Faith and religious dogma have prevented us from developing as a human species to our maximum potential. It does this by stopping people from asking questions or developing sound rational ideas and arguments about the world we live in. Certainly, The Dark Ages were typified by this approach when religion virtually stopped human kind from progressing. 'Faith' is a tool used by religion to control the population and to provide easy answers to the questions that religion can not satisfactorily provide.

Oooooh, there's much to talk about here!

Pick up a book called 'A History of God' by Karen Armstrong. It gives by far the best account of the historical development of the idea of God I have read. And I have a book case full of books titled 'God' or similar!

 

[Sean K]

Bull, I think you comment about the books being virtually written by the hand of God, or Holy Spirit, is just another way the church has had to backpedal when being asked rational, logical questions about the development of religious doctrine. Philosophically, it's a sound approach. It's an easy way of diverting us away from the truth. That is, that all the books were written by various people in different locations though time and under different cultural and political conditions. That's why they are contradictory and so different. It's why Abraham's God sits down and has tea with him, while Moseses God is fearful. Surely God wouldn't change over time. There were many books and even parts of the current books that were culled at various councils over the centuries. The editors of each of the books and the Catholic Church have done their best to align them so they seem somewhat logical and ordered, but really, a modern day editor would have a field day with the entire Old and New Testament. Guess God wasn't that logical in his approach to guiding the hands of the men the wrote the books.

 

[bullmarket]

Hi kennas

yes no problem but that is the standard response some people tend to give to try to refute that view....and I accpet anyone is entitled to take that view if they choose to.

Personally, I don't know where the teaching that writings in the Bible are inspired by the Holy Spirit comes from. It's possible it's actually written in the Bible somewhere or it could come from some other source......but either way I have no reason to not believe it is true.......but again it's each to their own on this one because no-one can conclusively prove that the Bible wasn't inspired by the Holy Spirit.

But then it's quite possible that sometimes some of the authors of the Bible misunderstood what they were taught or told by God or more likely in a few cases meanings, contexts etc could have been accidently lost or changed slightly in the Bible's translation to English.

Like I said in an earlier post. It's the overall messages/teachings that the Bible gives that is most important, not how someone interpretes selected verses taken out of context and applying them to today's world with no consideration for the cultures, laws, writing styles and ways of life back ~2000-3000 years ago when the Old and New Testaments were written.

I think what we need to remember is that back in the days when the books of the Bible were written the authors had no idea what the world would be like today and with the world a very much different place today, it is very easy to incorrectly apply what was written ~2000 years ago literally to today's world and come up with incorrect/misunderstood interpretations of what was originally meant.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[bunyip]

If being a true believer is our ticket to everlasting life in heaven, then I reckon those Melbourne crime bosses who got wiped out in the gang war, must be laughing!
Those blokes were Catholics and regular church goers, so they obviously believed in God. No doubt they were aware of the promise in the bible.....
"Whosever believeth in me shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life".
So according to Christain teaching, these criminals whose business was breaking the law and causing suffering to others, are languishing somewhere in paradise at this moment, where God has rolled out the welcome mat for them as their reward for being true believers.

But wait......Despite believing in God, they failed to qualify for Heaven becuase of the seedy, criminal lives they led, right?
WRONG! The Catholic teaching is that once a person goes into the confessional box and confesses his sins to a priest and to God, the slate is wiped clean, his sins are forgiven and everything is sweet once again between himself and God.

Therefore we can be pretty confident that those slain criminals played the system while they were alive, by making sure they put in regular sessions in the confessional box, thereby ensuring that, irrespective of their crimes, they kept on good terms with God.

So we can reasonably assume that despite being complete scumbags, those criminals are now enjoying life in heaven with their pal, God.

Such is the twisted thinking of Christianity and Catholicism.

Bunyip

 

[The Mint Man]

thats one big DITTO from me

 

[bullmarket]

Hi bunyip

please let me clarify a few points re your comments below:

"Whosever believeth in me shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life".
So according to Christain teaching, these criminals whose business was breaking the law and causing suffering to others, are languishing somewhere in paradise at this moment, where God has rolled out the welcome mat for them as their reward for being true believers.

But wait......Despite believing in God, they failed to qualify for Heaven becuase of the seedy, criminal lives they led, right?
WRONG! The Catholic teaching is that once a person goes into the confessional box and confesses his sins to a priest and to God, the slate is wiped clean, his sins are forgiven and everything is sweet once again between himself and God.

1) It's not as simple as thinking that if you believe in God that you will go to heaven regardless of how you live your life.

"Whosever believeth in me shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life". means also (according to other sections of the Bible) that believing in God must also include following the Ten Commandments basically. You cannot say you believe in God and then go and peddle drugs and murder people because if you genuinely believe in God and His teachings you wouldn't do those crimes.

2) Regarding Confession.....it is not a free pass or get out of jail card to then go out and recommit the same crimes over and over again.

Part of making a genuine confession is to repent and if someone is genuinely remorseful and wants to repent for previous sins (mortal or venial) then they will not commit those sins again - especially the mortal sins. If they go out and deliberately recommit especially the more serious mortal sins then I would imagine they will have a hard time convincing God they were genuinely remorseful and trying to repent when their time comes to be judged by God.

Me personally, I would not want to be in the shoes of the crime bosses you referred to when they meet their maker no matter how many times they went to Church or confession.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[Sean K]

Bull,

I think you are confirming that it all depends on the interpretation. Ya?

So, why not therefore take religion, and God out of the picture? No organised religion at all. Let's take the faith, the dogma, and the extraterrestrials, completely out of life. (maybe that would be boring)

Let's create a philosophy of living based on real life, logical ethics, and 'goodness' that relates to our culture of the day. What is the best way that we can live in our culture right now? Not what was best for Moses, or Jesus, or Muhammad. Surely all those funny little rules and liturgy do not relate to us living in Australia now?

If we did this, and everyone in this culture agreed that we were living the most appropriate life here in our culture, in our world, we wouldn't be bombing innocent people, or wasting time and money giving 10% of our wages to a church, or preventing africans from using condoms to stop getting HIV, or preventing blood transfusions, or burning witches, or stoning people to death, or not allowing women to go to school, or forcing women to be 'given away' by their fathers at a wedding, yada yada yada.

On the other hand, maybe we'd do all this crap anyway, and it would just be based on the new 'religion' created: kennasism. It only costs 5% of your wage to join. Plus, you get some steak knives.

 

[bullmarket]

Hi kennas

Bull,

I think you are confirming that it all depends on the interpretation. Ya?...............................

No, I am not confirming that it all depends on the interpretation.

Imo, most of the Bible is clear cut in what it means and is saying.

What I was saying before is that it is very easy for someone to extract a verse or passage out of context and apply it literally to today's world without any consideration for the fact that the authors of the books in the Bible would have had no idea of what the world would be like today and that the cultures, laws, ways of life, writing styles 2000-3000 years ago were very much different to what they are today and hence come up with a misunderstood or worse still twisted interpretation of what was originally written and its true meaning.

The overall message and teachings of the Bible are clear cut for me.

I have to go for today, so I will see you around tomorrow if you would like to discuss further.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[wayneL]

Dipping my toe in here...and dipping my hand, I believe there is some overriding, power in the universe, call it, God, the BIG Fella' upstairs, universal intellegence, ultimate truth, Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, Buddha, Shiva, The Great One, Cosmic Intelligence, The Tao, whatever.. I don't care.

Once more I couldn't give a fat rats @rse what anyone else thinks or believes about that.

But one thing I am sure of. The bible, the koran, the sanskrit, the Tao Te Ching, the dead sea scrolls, were all written by MEN. And all men have an agenda.

For the religious, a few questions.

How can a God teach us about forgiveness and be prepared to chuck us into hell and speak of revenge.

How can a God teach us about love and yet encourage us to hate.

How can a God tell us that we should tell the truth, and brag about deception (as is in the case in the bible)

How can a God say we are not saved unless we believe in Jesus Christ and allow his church to absolutely apostosize his message... discouraging belief in Him.

If God is all powerful, why should he even need to be worshipped. This is a need of MEN, the need to be worshipped.

The answer is simple, its because it is men saying all this stuff. Not God or whatever you want to name him.

If there is a God, I believe he would be well pleased (another human emotion superimposed onto the "mind of God") with folks who try to do good, even if they don't believe in him.

I submit that there is a purpose for all there is in the world, including bad. But aren't good and bad merely human constructs as well? What is good and what is bad? How can good exist without bad?

In my most humble and extremely fallible opinion.

Cheers

 

[The Mint Man]

BM,
I think we have already established that you think, or even are different to most people. You seem to be like a tree, firmly planted in one spot (in other words stuborn), to the point that no matter how much the wind blows you dont move an inch (conveniently ignorant). This can be good in a way but in another it can be bad. Very Bad.
To steal a quote from Dr Phil, Hows that working for ya?

The overall message and teachings of the Bible are clear cut for me.

I refer you to the quote above and then the various posts, especially wayneL's which quite clearly show that the teachings are not that clear, there are some fairly smart people on here that quite obviously don't get it. Why? because its the most cryptic book you could ever read.
Its not clear cut.... as a matter of fact it is an amazing resemblance of the way you talk/write in riddles.

 

[Sean K]

Wayne, I'm not sure of the Tao was written by a man. Lao Tzu is supposed to have written it but we no nothing of him, or her. It could have been God! Maybe.

All your other points will go into my book. Thanks! (You will be quoted.) he he.

 

[Bobby]

If God is all powerful, why should he even need to be worshipped. This is a need of MEN, the need to be worshipped.

I like the above Wayne good one !

Bob.

 

[wayneL]

Hey just found this link.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

If you're agnostic or an atheist, you might use this to disprove God, as these folks are doing.

That is a shame and not my intention (but each to there own), but to cast a critical eye over RELIGION.

If you do believe in God, it might encourage you do look past the control mechanisms the MEN up in the pulpit might be using on you.

Cheers

 

[Sean K]

Great link Wayne! I am sure just about every paragraph will eventually be debunked in some way. We might as well throw the books away and start again.

 

[Rafa]

Hey, great debate by the way...

Can i just say something...

There has been a lot of stuff quoted, most of it from the Old Testament of the Bible, which is actually the same stuff that is in the Torah (Jews) and the Koran (muslims)

Now I am a practising Christian... But let me say something, I DO NOT give a hoots about the Old Testament... Unfortunately, fundamentalists Christians, Jews and Muslims, get a lot of their quotes and their drive from the OLD TESTAMENT... Incidentally, Kennas and the Prof also get their quotes from there... and yes, I agree, its a BOOK of WAR!

The OLD TESTAMENT as far as I am concerned is not Christianity... Christianity is Jesus's teaches as written in the First Four Books of the New Testament... (called the GOSPELS)... This is the book Christians should be following... this is the book that I try to follow...

I have a challenge to Kennas and the Prof...
Try and quote anything from the GOSPELS... Jesus's Teachings, where violence of any type, and i repeat ANY TYPE, is condoned...

The GOSPELS are what Christianity is about, not the OLD TESTAMENT or any thing else, because they are an account of Christ’s life and teaching... I am not interested in books written crazy prophets hallucinating in the desert, and I don't think you guys should be either... If you want to understand what it is to be a Christian, then please read the GOSPELS only...

I think for those who you who are trying to live good lives, read the GOSPELS only, and you'll be pleasantly surprised the views expressed there are very similar to yours... (except for the belief in GOD bit... )

Also, can I ask another favour, please then do not look at Christians and say, hang on; they are not following the message for the Gospel... I think KENNAS knows the reason why that is... we are after all only HUMAN!

 

[crackaton]

My god I can't believe I started all this lol Anyway it's been good reading even though I don't believe in religion, god or after life. Hope people have gained what they were looking for.

 

[professor_frink]

Thanks for your comments before bullmarket, appreciated.

Rafa you are more than welcome to say something!
I have an hour and a half before the soccer starts so I accept that challenge
Dunno how well I'll go but. In regards to you not giving a hoot about the old testament, as a non religious person I think thats a good thing. I've read the gospels(not for a few years but!), and I have to say I agree with you- It's got a much better message to it

p.s The question I asked bullmarket earlier was addressed to all religious people on these here forums. Do you have an opinion on the questions I asked? Just curious for some feedback on them?