Akmal Shaikh - China executes mentally ill Briton

[Garpal Gumnut]

Sorry I didn't mean to strangle the thread with objectivity and data.

How about we hang all drug dealers from lamposts near the exits from shopping centres?

He was a drug courier 1 tick, He did it in China 2 ticks

He had bipolar 1 tick

2 ticks minus 1 tick = an execution.


gg

 

[bunyip]

I'm sure you get my point.

But in case; Unless one has direct experience with the addict, then one cannot know the mindset, nor the depths to which they can sink. Nor will one understand that theirs is a choice; a conscious decision to use their poison of choice, for whatever distorted reasoning they choose. And further to that, they will use virtually ANY methods to obtain that particular drug, and will, without hesitation, or at least, very little hesitation, walk over their own grandmother to get it.

Now, unless you know this ****, or have seen it, then the handwringing that accompanies the academic, and remote observations that people have, amount to nothing. In fact, they're worse than nothing, because they don't help, or they entrench the user further.

There are programs available that work, but they aren't unfortunately available in Australia, where the idiotic slogan "war on drugs" has really taken hold.

The dealer, or provider, would be out of business if the user was not available. I don't like dealers, but having had direct, first hand experience with end users, and dealers, I dislike users more because of the excuses they make for their behaviour, and the excuses that the majority of do-gooders also make on their behalf.

Yes, drug abuse is an illness, but it's self-inflicted, and they're not victims of traffickers, they're simply victims of their own stupidity.

</rant>

If a kid grows up in a dysfunctional family, both parents violent, both guilty of substance abuse, whether it's drugs or booze or whatever, and early in life the kid ends up leaving home and becoming a street kid, there's every chance he'll get into the drug scene at an age where he's too young to make intelligent choices.
That's how at least some drug users get started, and I don't need to have direct contact with them to know that.
Yes, once hooked they'll do pretty much anything to get money for the next fix. But I repeat, these users are not as bad as the cold hearted, calculating criminals who bring large quantities of hard drugs into the country to line their own pockets with money.
Your average drug user in not a mass murdering mongrel.....his main concern is working out how to get his next fix. The hard drug trafficking criminals are a different story altogether.....they're mass murderers pure and simple. And they should be treated as such.

I'm not making excuses for the drug users.....they have a lot to answer for. They keep the drug trade going by providing the necessary demand. But many of them are decent people underneath their problems - they just got caught up in something bad when they were young and impressionable.

For the most part I agree with what you're saying....drug users are indeed victims of their own stupidity. I'm not kindly disposed to anyone in the drug trade, users or dealers. But it's the traffickers in large quantities of hard drugs that are really the ones with the evil minds and intentions.

 

[bunyip]

I didnt know crime was spiraling out of control?

Have you ever done anything illegal bunyip? If so would you take that hard line approach with yourself?

What if your son or daughter got caught "experementing" with a single ecstacy tablet, because they succumbed to peer pressure?

Would you still lock her up for life? Get a grip on reality my man

If you're not aware of the escalating crime rate, then maybe you should keep yourself more in touch.

No, I haven't done anything illegal apart from get behind the wheel a time or two when I was young and stupid and probably over the limit.

Show me where I've suggested that people should be locked up for life for experimenting with one ecstasy tablet. If you can't do that, then perhaps you should stop misrepresenting my words.

 

[Fishbulb]

If a kid grows up in a dysfunctional family, both parents violent, both guilty of substance abuse, whether it's drugs or booze or whatever, and early in life the kid ends up leaving home and becoming a street kid, there's every chance he'll get into the drug scene at an age where he's too young to make intelligent choices.
That's how at least some drug users get started, and I don't need to have direct contact with them to know that.
Yes, once hooked they'll do pretty much anything to get money for the next fix. But I repeat, these users are not as bad as the cold hearted, calculating criminals who bring large quantities of hard drugs into the country to line their own pockets with money.
Your average drug user in not a mass murdering mongrel.....his main concern is working out how to get his next fix. The hard drug trafficking criminals are a different story altogether.....they're mass murderers pure and simple. And they should be treated as such.

I'm not making excuses for the drug users.....they have a lot to answer for. They keep the drug trade going by providing the necessary demand. But many of them are decent people underneath their problems - they just got caught up in something bad when they were young and impressionable.

For the most part I agree with what you're saying....drug users are indeed victims of their own stupidity. I'm not kindly disposed to anyone in the drug trade, users or dealers. But it's the traffickers in large quantities of hard drugs that are really the ones with the evil minds and intentions.

Hey, I'll just ignore the excuses you keep making for users. I don't think I or anyone else could convince you that they're not just innocent little victims, or just got caught up in their natural curiosity and experimentation the poor wee things.

Instead I'll concentrate on this - That in effect, what you're saying, is that the evil minded deserve all the punishment coming to them for their cold-hearted ways. I agree. Because basically, you've described most criminal activity.

I think instead of concentrating on ways of doing in the criminals, we, or our lawmakers rather, should be looking at ways of short circuiting the ways criminals can get involved. We in the west for the most part go about this entire sticky area all wrong. Perhaps look at what Switzerland is doing - click here

 

[bunyip]

The point I would make is that you are pretty hardline on these issues without direct experience of junkies and other drug users. I agree with a tough stance on drugs and traffickers, however, to say that a blanket death penalty should be introduced is foolish.

Not being a bleeding heart, but you have no idea how some people got to be where they are. And yet you are still pretty full on in your views.

I just think a bit less of a one size fits all approach is needed.

Agree with Fishbulb above - think of a bit of a silly decision that someone has made. And multiply that by 10 and add manipulation, emotional blackmail, self-harm and irrationality. And after you have multiplied that by 10 and added the rest, you will see that this **** goes on EVERYDAY for the user and their families.

Remember, the families are very very very very much victims of the drug also - often is more ways than the user. Add up financial cost, worry, stress, loss of family reputation, emotional energy, work productivity lost. The user NEVER thinks of these things - only getting the next fix. The family is left with the rest.

In short Bunyip - with respect - you don't know much mate.

Brad

And with all due respect to you too Brad, you don't have a bloody clue how much I know.

You appear to think, for example, that I have no understanding of the impact of drugs on the families of the drug user. I assure you I do.

I have never suggested a blanket death penalty that includes drug users. I'm well aware that some of them got into the drug scene due to circumstances that were largely beyond their control at the time.

My hard line comments about executing people were made in relation to traffickers of hard drugs......for example, the Bali nine who were strapped up with enough heroin to dose up tens of thousands of people. And the Mr Bigs who organised these drug mules. These are the people who need to be eliminated, not the poor weak bastards who experiment with ecstasy or some other drug for their own use.

Again with respect, Brad, maybe you should take the trouble to find out what life experiences I've had, what exactly I do know, before you got jumping to conclusions that I don't know much.

 

[bunyip]

Bunyip i definently do not agree with your views.

I will admit i have taken drugs in the past, recreational, not a junkie.

And to be honest with you, people cause more harm when there are drunk then when they are on drugs. If i want to take a chance on my life and take drugs, then that is my decision, an illegal decision, but a decision none the less.

You obviously have no idea how much drugs do for econimies. They keep hundres of thousands employed. The authorities who monitor them, the rehab clinics, the nurses like your partner, the money spend by the dealers on various luxuries. Drugs keep the world spinning. As long as their is demand there will always be supply.

To think i could have the death penalty, for having a couple of ecstacy tablets on me is just insance. Im not hurting anyone? Is it really that bad?

It makes more sense to have the death penalty for drink driving, then having a few drugs on you.

Lukeaye....you don't agree with my views yet you don't seem to have the faintest idea what my views actually are. You appear to think I'm advocating the death penalty for being in possession of a couple of ecstasy tablets. That is absurd....nowhere have I said or even hinted such a thing.

So you think the illegal drug trade is good for the economy. Are you suggesting then, that we should keep the drug trade going for that reason?

Regarding the comparison between alcohol and illegal drugs, I absolutely agree that booze is quite likely the worst drug of them all. It causes immense suffering in society.
Governments sicken me with their two-faced attitude towards alcohol. On the one hand they're constantly bombarding us with ads about the dangers of alcohol abuse, e.g. their drink driving ads and their 'one punch can kill' ads. On the other hand, they're encouraging people to drink as much as possible by continuously extending the hours of pubs and clubs.
Cigarette ads and sponsorship by cigarette companies has been banned in Australia for decades. Yet alcohol ads and sponsorship by alcohol companies are alive and well, with the governments blessing.
The fact is that governments make huge money from taxing booze, so from an economic viewpoint, the more we drink the better the government like it.

In my youth when pubs and clubs closed before midnight, there was only a fraction of the alcohol-related violence and car crashes that we have today.

 

[lukeaye]

When or if Australia starts following the lead of China and Singapore in executing drug traffickers, then and only then might we start making some serious inroads into the drug trafficking problem in this country.

This is what im refering to. By definition if i take 2 ecstacy pills into china, im up for execution. I think this is totally insane.

I wouldnt do it obviosuly because i don't want to die, but perhaps for somebody who doesn't know the laws of the land this is far far far to harsh.

So bunyip if your wife got forced to take drugs into another country because her life or somebody elses was threatened, and she got caught, would you be happy with a 30 min trial followed by a bullet in the head for her?

Your hardline approach does not take enough into consideration, a life is an invaluable thing. Its like your hatred and rage for drug traffickers in general, clouds your judgement.

I still think its not the dealers fault. You can in no way way blame a drug dealer for the people that have destroyed their own lives due to the drugs. (unless of course they are bad drugs). But its up to the consumer as to what risk they want to take, they are simply providing a service and a supply to a demand.

The only way you will ever solve the problem is to address demand. The supply is not the problem. As long as their is addiction drug users will always find a way to get drugs. If one drug mule dies, another will step in his place. If a dealer dies, another will step in his place. The money involved is far to great, for both the dealers and authorities.

So if you really want to help the situation think about how you can get youth to avoid drugs. Not going around blindly shooting people

 

[BradK]

And with all due respect to you too Brad, you don't have a bloody clue how much I know.

Again with respect, Brad, maybe you should take the trouble to find out what life experiences I've had, what exactly I do know, before you got jumping to conclusions that I don't know much.

Lots of respect going around.

So, what life experiences have you had in relation to friends or family involvement with drugs?

Brad

 

[Julia]

The Indonesian prosecution and the police came up with no evidence against Corby, nor did they even make any attempt to procure evidence. The police didn't even finger print the drugs.

You don't consider the drugs in her bag are evidence then?

You haven't addressed my earlier point that - if you take this view, i.e. that a person has to be found with the drugs actually strapped to their body, then they are ipso facto completely innocent?
If so, why would not everyone carrying drugs in their clothing or luggage simply have to say "I didn't put them there", to be told "Oh, that's fine, mate, off you go then"

Corby didn't get a fair trial.

That is probably true.
Perhaps some influence was accorded the fact that if she had no involvement in the drug trade, she would be the only member of her family not to be so involved.

Tink, the fact is that neither you nor I know enough about the Corby case to pass judgement on whether or not she's guilty. I'm not going to get into a debate about her guilt or innocence......I'd be silly do so - I don't know the facts.

But Bunyip, you effectively have declared that she should be free, which would imply innocence.

I'm sure you get my point.

But in case; Unless one has direct experience with the addict, then one cannot know the mindset, nor the depths to which they can sink. Nor will one understand that theirs is a choice; a conscious decision to use their poison of choice, for whatever distorted reasoning they choose. And further to that, they will use virtually ANY methods to obtain that particular drug, and will, without hesitation, or at least, very little hesitation, walk over their own grandmother to get it.

I completely agree. And I have had personal experience with a drug user.
He disregarded career, colleagues, and family in pursuit of his drugs.

Also eschewed assistance.

The dealer, or provider, would be out of business if the user was not available. I don't like dealers, but having had direct, first hand experience with end users, and dealers, I dislike users more because of the excuses they make for their behaviour, and the excuses that the majority of do-gooders also make on their behalf.

Agree.

Yes, drug abuse is an illness, but it's self-inflicted, and they're not victims of traffickers, they're simply victims of their own stupidity.

I don't agree that drug abuse is an illness. It is the result of a choice.

Remember, the families are very very very very much victims of the drug also - often is more ways than the user. Add up financial cost, worry, stress, loss of family reputation, emotional energy, work productivity lost. The user NEVER thinks of these things - only getting the next fix. The family is left with the rest.

Quite correct.

Bunyip i definently do not agree with your views.

I will admit i have taken drugs in the past, recreational, not a junkie.

You obviously have no idea how much drugs do for econimies. They keep hundres of thousands employed. The authorities who monitor them, the rehab clinics, the nurses like your partner, the money spend by the dealers on various luxuries. Drugs keep the world spinning. As long as their is demand there will always be supply.

What a totally ridiculous excuse for drug abuse.

 

[DB008]

Does anybody here have views on personal comsumption? ie, going to music festival and taking a joint? 4kg of H is a little bit more than personal consumption.

 

[IFocus]

We in the west for the most part go about this entire sticky area all wrong. Perhaps look at what Switzerland is doing - click here

Nice one Fishbuld I wondered if anyone would bring this up.

Drugs, supply vers demand some thing we all are experts at

One way to remove demand is for the Government to be the supplier and once you are the supplier you then have some control over the users and their behavior.

Those nasty drug dealers are screwed because they no longer have a market.

 

[bunyip]

Lots of respect going around.

So, what life experiences have you had in relation to friends or family involvement with drugs?

Brad

None of my friends or family have been involved in drugs. I do, however, know families who have been affected. I don't know them well enough to call them friends, but I do know them. And I'm well aware of the torment and trauma they've been through.
Also, anyone with a TV set will have seen families on TV who have been torn apart by drugs. It's all over the place, to such an extent that nobody can be unaware of just how horrible drug addiction is, and the lives it affects.

For some reason Brad, you seem to think I'm making light of the misery that drug addiction causes for users and their families. Nothing could be further from the truth.
My view is that the people who trade in this misery for their own profit, should be punished heavily. Frankly I don't care if it's life in prison instead of the death penalty. Of the two, life behind bars is probably the more horrible for the person concerned.
I don't care what happens to them - I just want them to cop penalties that fit the crime and act as an effective deterrent to others who might think of choosing the same path. I don't believe that's happening under Australian law at present.

 

[bunyip]

Julia

We can reasonably expect civilised countries to attempt to establish whether a person carrying drugs is the culprit, or whether they may be doing so unwittingly.
Indonesia didn't do that with Corby. As I understand it, her boogie board bag went through with the rest of her luggage, and when she collected it there were drugs inside.
No reasonable person would dismiss the possibility that she herself put the drugs in the bag. But equally, no reasonable person would dismiss the possibility that, unknown to her, the drugs were planted there by someone else.

She didn't get a fair trial. She shouldn't be in jail. This is not a judgement on her guilt or innocence. She may be as guilty as hell for all I know, but unless her guilt was proven beyond reasonable doubt, she'd be freed in any country with a fair and reasonable justice system.

I mentioned earlier the Australian couple a couple of years before the Corby case, who found that drugs had been planted in the luggage when they unpacked in their Bali hotel room. According to the Australian Embassy in Indonesia, had they gone to the authorities they would have been judged guilty and would have done 20 years for a crime they didn't commit.
This may well be what's happened to Shapelle Corby....none of us really know for sure.

 

[bunyip]

lukeaye

What they do in China is up to them.
There may well be countries in the world that lack the intelligence and judgement to distinguish between someone carrying a couple of ecstasy pills for personal use, and someone carrying several kilograms of hard drugs that are obviously destined for sale to many thousands of users.
I doubt if Australia would be such a country....I'd like to think we're somewhat more intelligent and capable down here.
If we had the death penalty as one of the penalties available for drug trafficking, I'd be pretty confident of our ability to responsibly decide which offenders it was handed out to.

Your hypothetical question about my wife.....I'm not going to speculate on a situation that she would never allow herself to get into.

 

[IFocus]

I don't care what happens to them - I just want them to cop penalties that fit the crime and act as an effective deterrent to others who might think of choosing the same path. I don't believe that's happening under Australian law at present.

Wont work only you and I fear the penalty, sounds like vengeance thinking rather than solution based the bad nasty guys don't care they just do it check out the USA statistics war on drugs etc total bull$hit how long have they been doing that gig?

 

[Julia]

Julia

We can reasonably expect civilised countries to attempt to establish whether a person carrying drugs is the culprit, or whether they may be doing so unwittingly.

How, exactly? Don't you think it a little odd that - having carried her boogie board pre boarding, and then collecting it in Indonesia, she didn't notice that it was more than4kg heavier??? I sure as hell would notice that.

Could I ask you once more what you think is fair?

Say I travel to an overseas destination, having packed in my luggage 4kg of drugs. When it is discovered at the overseas airport, may I reasonably expect that if I say 'well, I didn't put it there', I should be waved on my way into the country, drugs intact?

That's effectively what you are suggesting when you suggest that Ms Corby should not be considered the possessor of the drugs found in her luggage.

This is the point I'm trying (vainly so far) to make.

It's not about Corby specifically, just the general principle.

 

[Timmy]

When it is discovered at the overseas airport, may I reasonably expect that if I say 'well, I didn't put it there', I should be waved on my way into the country, drugs intact?

Are you being deliberately irrational here? Or is this just more posturing? Posters are trying to bring up reasonable points and you respond with this sort of inane question? Or is it just sarcasm in the absence of any reasonable response?

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Are you being deliberately irrational here? Or is this just more posturing? Posters are trying to bring up reasonable points and you respond with this sort of inane question?

I see no posturing or irrationality in the statement by Julia. Its all part of a logical argument.

btw, you guys n gals would all fail 101 essay writing as the majority still ignore the "mentally" part of the statement.

gg

 

[Timmy]

I see no posturing or irrationality in the statement by Julia. Its all part of a logical argument.

I do.

There are other alternatives to Julia's being "waved on my way into the country, drugs intact?"

 

[nunthewiser]

check out the USA statistics war on drugs etc total bull$hit how long have they been doing that gig?

Yep, and how long have they provided safe passage in the opium trails for ................

whole crock of poo if you ask me

p.s chapelle corby and this other Akmal goose are no different in my book .........They both broke the law in a foreign country ..........There rules ...........People know the consequences ...........Thats the punishment.