Akmal Shaikh - China executes mentally ill Briton

condog · 1 January 2010

Hey bunyips

I agree drug dealers are somehow involved in potential / real mass homicide or at least assualt / inflicting grevious bodily harm, and child abuse for the families of drug users.......its an aweful situation.....

We certainly need to be massively tougher on all crimes in Australia including drug trafficing......the doo gooders are a pathetic soft bunch who put the rights of criminals above the rights of victims........and they are just as bad by association........

Never should the right of a proven guilty criminal come even remotely close to the rights of a truamatised victim, never.....
Society and in particular the legal system has absolutely lost the plot in australia......

For starter houses should be sanctuaries where you feel completely safe and no one ever dare violate or enter your premises even if you where over sease with the doors open......

Armed robbers should have 20-30 years minimum

Secondly drug traffficers and manufactures with commercial intentions should be put to hard labour for 20-30 years minimum......

Murder , gang rape , un equivickly proven violent rape to unknown victims and attempted murder should carry 30+ years hard labour......

Petty criminals should be forced to repay debts and do labour for society with tracking devices and curfews / home detentions if need be.....

People say we could never afford it...... with the money we would all save on security, councilling and insurance we could pay for it 500 times over....

Unfortuantely we have been conditioned by pathetic justice to think that security is a necesity and that freedom is a right even for criminals.....
Mate I never thought id say it , but I wish a crime upon every doo gooder out there, until they finally change there tune...

If ti wasnt for stinking pathetic doo gooders who protect the guilty we could all enjoy a massively safer and better society....

We have become so pathetic in terms of pollitical correctness and mis guided justice that Andrew Symmonds got more punishment for having one beer then most criminals get for break and enter....

Society with its pent up frustrations is targeting the worng people

Julia · 1 January 2010

bunyip said:
I agree.....the death penalty in a corrupt, pathetic, incompetent society like Indonesia could be badly misused due to their inability and complete lack of interest in giving people fair trials.
Corby, for example, should not be in jail at all, since there was no evidence that she placed the drugs in her bag.
Wheter she's innocent or guilty is not the question here. The fact is that she was convicted and jailed for 20 years without a shred of evidence.

If you were to travel to Indonesia and your bag was found on arrival to contain drugs, wouldn't you expect that Indonesia would expect that that was your responsibility?

To take your argument to its logical conclusion, you would say that every person entering any country with contraband in their luggage could not be deemed guilty because no one actually filmed them putting whatever it was in their luggage!

A hell of a lot of crimes would go unpunished, wouldn't they?

Bali Nine, different story - the irrefutable evidence was that they were caught with the drugs strapped to their bodies.
In theory they should probably be handed over to Australia for punishment, since it was Australia they were headed for with their drugs. In practice though, I'm pleased the Indonesians are dealing with them - at least they get a decent penalty there, 20 years for some, life for others.
Under the ridiculous Australian penalty system, they'd be walking the streets again in seven or eight years.
On the other hand, I'd welcome the Bali nine being sent to Australia if they were shot or hung when they got here.

There is a huge double standard here. Maybe because Ms Corby is an attractive young woman whilst the Bali Nine were decidedly less so.

Ms Corby carried the drugs in her luggage. The Bali Nine carried the drugs on their person(s). But you think one should be free, and the others should be executed.

Tink · 2 January 2010

I agree that the sentences should be harsher regarding drug trafficking in this country Bunyip. Its the only way that people are going to get the message, but, as stated, I dont agree with the death penalty

I would go down the same line as Schapelle Corby - 20 years is a good start. As for her not being guilty or in there, I dont agree. She chose to take the risk and its not the first time she has been down that road.

Truth is, a majority of those traffickers are already involved in crime, so they dont give two hoots about anyone else.

Fishbulb · 2 January 2010

I think if you're going to look at traffickers as the problem, then you've only got half the equation. Users are the other half. It's a symbiotic relationship, so one simply can't wring one's hands over a poor old addict, and kill the traffickers.

Addicts and users are just as big in the ******** stakes as the providers.

bunyip · 2 January 2010

Julia said:
If you were to travel to Indonesia and your bag was found on arrival to contain drugs, wouldn't you expect that Indonesia would expect that that was your responsibility?

To take your argument to its logical conclusion, you would say that every person entering any country with contraband in their luggage could not be deemed guilty because no one actually filmed them putting whatever it was in their luggage!

A hell of a lot of crimes would go unpunished, wouldn't they?

There is a huge double standard here. Maybe because Ms Corby is an attractive young woman whilst the Bali Nine were decidedly less so.

Ms Corby carried the drugs in her luggage. The Bali Nine carried the drugs on their person(s). But you think one should be free, and the others should be executed.

Shapelle Corby being reasonably attractive has nothing to do with it. If she was caught with heroin strapped to her body, as were the Bali nine, then I'd be calling for her execution even if she was Miss World at the time. I detest drug traffickers regardless of their looks or gender.

The Indonesian prosecution and the police came up with no evidence against Corby, nor did they even make any attempt to procure evidence. The police didn't even finger print the drugs.
If I pinch a ring from a jewellers shop and then slip it into your handbag, unknown to you, that doesn't make you guilty of stealing the ring, at least not in this country. Different story in Indonesia though, apparently.

An Australian couple told of how years before the Corby case, they found drugs in their luggage when they unpacked their bags in their Bali hotel room. They contacted the Australian Embassy and asked for advice. They were told to flush the drugs down the toilet, but under no circumstances should they go to the police about it. If they did, they could expect to spend the next 20 years in jail. Such is the Indonesian legal system.....a complete joke, but not a very pleasant one if you're a victim of it.

Corby didn't get a fair trial.

condog · 2 January 2010

bunyip said:
Shapelle Corby being reasonably attractive has nothing to do with it. If she was caught with heroin strapped to her body, as were the Bali nine, ..............even if she was Miss World at the time. I detest drug traffickers regardless of their looks or gender.

The Indonesian prosecution and the police came up with no evidence against Corby, nor did they even make any attempt to procure evidence. The police didn't even finger print the drugs.
If I pinch a ring from a jewellers shop and then slip it into your handbag, unknown to you, that doesn't make you guilty of stealing the ring, at least not in this country. Different story in Indonesia though, apparently.

An Australian couple told of how years before the Corby case, they found drugs in their luggage when they unpacked their bags in their Bali hotel room. They contacted the Australian Embassy and asked for advice. They were told to flush the drugs down the toilet, but under no circumstances should they go to the police about it. If they did, they could expect to spend the next 20 years in jail. Such is the Indonesian legal system.....a complete joke, but not a very pleasant one if you're a victim of it.

Corby didn't get a fair trial.

Here , here...with the exception of the hard line on the death panalty..that about sums it up as accurately as I could imagine it....

Well put bunyips.........vote 1 bunyips to take over from Mr Monk and run the coalition against Krudd...

bunyip · 2 January 2010

Fishbulb said:
I think if you're going to look at traffickers as the problem, then you've only got half the equation. Users are the other half. It's a symbiotic relationship, so one simply can't wring one's hands over a poor old addict, and kill the traffickers.

Addicts and users are just as big in the ******** stakes as the providers.

Users can be brainless, immature kids who started out on something lighter, like pot, and once addicted, graduated to the heavier stuff.
They're irresponsible fools and the drug trade couldn't flourish without them. But they're not the same evil people as drug traffickers whose business is to profit from causing misery, suffering and death to others.
Hard drug traffickers are mass murderers. Irrespective of whether we think they warrant the death penalty, the fact is they're treated leniently in this country.
From my observation, they seem to receive similar sentences to bank robbers, which is generally less than ten years in jail, and they're out much earlier if they behave themselves while in prison.
At the very least, hard drug traffickers should spend every single year of their remaining life in jail. No reduced sentences for good behaviour, and if they want to play up, put them in solitary for a few months. If they play up again, straight back into solitary they go.
Much simpler though, is to get rid of them permanently so they don't use up taxpayer money.
And if anyone wants to argue with me, ask yourselves whether Singapore's legal system works better or worse than ours.
Unless we introduce punishment so severe that it absolutely horrifies and frightens people half to death, crime will continue to spiral out of control in Australia.

Fishbulb · 2 January 2010

bunyip said:
Users can be brainless, immature kids who started out on something lighter, like pot, and once addicted, graduated to the heavier stuff.
They're irresponsible fools and the drug trade couldn't flourish without them. But they're not the same evil people as drug traffickers whose business is to profit from causing misery, suffering and death to others.
Hard drug traffickers are mass murderers. Irrespective of whether we think they warrant the death penalty, the fact is they're treated leniently in this country.
From my observation, they seem to receive similar sentences to bank robbers, which is generally less than ten years in jail, and they're out much earlier if they behave themselves while in prison.
At the very least, hard drug traffickers should spend every single year of their remaining life in jail. No reduced sentences for good behaviour, and if they want to play up, put them in solitary for a few months. If they play up again, straight back into solitary they go.
Much simpler though, is to get rid of them permanently so they don't use up taxpayer money.
And if anyone wants to argue with me, ask yourselves whether Singapore's legal system works better or worse than ours.
Unless we introduce punishment so severe that it absolutely horrifies and frightens people half to death, crime will continue to spiral out of control in Australia.

So you say. But I'd guess you have no personal experience.

bunyip · 2 January 2010

Tink said:
I agree that the sentences should be harsher regarding drug trafficking in this country Bunyip. Its the only way that people are going to get the message, but, as stated, I dont agree with the death penalty

I would go down the same line as Schapelle Corby - 20 years is a good start. As for her not being guilty or in there, I dont agree. She chose to take the risk and its not the first time she has been down that road.

Truth is, a majority of those traffickers are already involved in crime, so they dont give two hoots about anyone else.

Tink, the fact is that neither you nor I know enough about the Corby case to pass judgement on whether or not she's guilty. I'm not going to get into a debate about her guilt or innocence......I'd be silly do so - I don't know the facts.
But what I do know is that neither the police nor the prosecution came up with any evidence against Corby that would have held up in a proper legal system.

The Corby debate is a bit like the Azaria Chamberlain case years ago, where her mother Lindy was convicted of killing her own child. Just about everyone, including me, had an opinion on whether she was innocent or guilty. It was damn stupid of all of us, since none of us really knew the facts.
To my discredit, I judged Lindy guilty....there was no reasonable basis for my judgement, it was just how I felt. It was pretty dumb of me, and I was subsequently proven wrong by the evidence that emerged after Lindy has spent years in jail for a crime she didn't commit.

I'm not going to fall into the trap a second time by making dumb judgements about the guilt or innocence of Shapelle Corby, when I don't know the facts.
But blind Freddie can see she didn't get a fair trial and no credible evidence was presented against her. On that basis alone, she should not be rotting in some filthy Indonesian jail.
I feel that sooner or later Corby will be released or pardoned before she's served out her 20 year sentence.....then people will come to realise what a pathetic joke the Indonesian legal system really is.

bunyip · 2 January 2010

Fishbulb said:
So you say. But I'd guess you have no personal experience.

No personal experience of what?

Fishbulb · 2 January 2010

bunyip said:
No personal experience in what?

Direct experience with junkies and other drug users.

Tink · 2 January 2010

Fishbulb said:
I think if you're going to look at traffickers as the problem, then you've only got half the equation. Users are the other half. It's a symbiotic relationship, so one simply can't wring one's hands over a poor old addict, and kill the traffickers.

Addicts and users are just as big in the ******** stakes as the providers.

No the other half is the top dog, the ones paying these traffickers to do their dirty work.

As for the users, they arent selling. Its the other 2 tiers that are the problem.

bunyip · 2 January 2010

Fishbulb said:
Direct experience with junkies and other drug users.

No, I haven't had direct experience with junkies and other drug users.

So what point are you making exactly?

Fishbulb · 2 January 2010

bunyip said:
No, I haven't had direct experience with junkies and other drug users.

So what point are you making exactly?

I'm sure you get my point.

But in case; Unless one has direct experience with the addict, then one cannot know the mindset, nor the depths to which they can sink. Nor will one understand that theirs is a choice; a conscious decision to use their poison of choice, for whatever distorted reasoning they choose. And further to that, they will use virtually ANY methods to obtain that particular drug, and will, without hesitation, or at least, very little hesitation, walk over their own grandmother to get it.

Now, unless you know this ****, or have seen it, then the handwringing that accompanies the academic, and remote observations that people have, amount to nothing. In fact, they're worse than nothing, because they don't help, or they entrench the user further.

There are programs available that work, but they aren't unfortunately available in Australia, where the idiotic slogan "war on drugs" has really taken hold.

The dealer, or provider, would be out of business if the user was not available. I don't like dealers, but having had direct, first hand experience with end users, and dealers, I dislike users more because of the excuses they make for their behaviour, and the excuses that the majority of do-gooders also make on their behalf.

Yes, drug abuse is an illness, but it's self-inflicted, and they're not victims of traffickers, they're simply victims of their own stupidity.

</rant>

Fishbulb · 2 January 2010

Tink said:
No the other half is the top dog, the ones paying these traffickers to do their dirty work.

As for the users, they arent selling. Its the other 2 tiers that are the problem.

Wrong

BradK · 2 January 2010

bunyip said:
No, I haven't had direct experience with junkies and other drug users.

So what point are you making exactly?

The point I would make is that you are pretty hardline on these issues without direct experience of junkies and other drug users. I agree with a tough stance on drugs and traffickers, however, to say that a blanket death penalty should be introduced is foolish.

Not being a bleeding heart, but you have no idea how some people got to be where they are. And yet you are still pretty full on in your views.

I just think a bit less of a one size fits all approach is needed.

Agree with Fishbulb above - think of a bit of a silly decision that someone has made. And multiply that by 10 and add manipulation, emotional blackmail, self-harm and irrationality. And after you have multiplied that by 10 and added the rest, you will see that this **** goes on EVERYDAY for the user and their families.

Remember, the families are very very very very much victims of the drug also - often is more ways than the user. Add up financial cost, worry, stress, loss of family reputation, emotional energy, work productivity lost. The user NEVER thinks of these things - only getting the next fix. The family is left with the rest.

In short Bunyip - with respect - you don't know much mate.

Brad

BradK · 2 January 2010

bunyip said:
From my observation, they seem to receive similar sentences to bank robbers, which is generally less than ten years in jail, and they're out much earlier if they behave themselves while in prison.
At the very least, hard drug traffickers should spend every single year of their remaining life in jail. No reduced sentences for good behaviour, and if they want to play up, put them in solitary for a few months. If they play up again, straight back into solitary they go.
Much simpler though, is to get rid of them permanently so they don't use up taxpayer money.
And if anyone wants to argue with me, ask yourselves whether Singapore's legal system works better or worse than ours.
Unless we introduce punishment so severe that it absolutely horrifies and frightens people half to death, crime will continue to spiral out of control in Australia.

Flabbergasted. Speechless.

lukeaye · 2 January 2010

Bunyip i definently do not agree with your views.

I will admit i have taken drugs in the past, recreational, not a junkie.

And to be honest with you, people cause more harm when there are drunk then when they are on drugs. If i want to take a chance on my life and take drugs, then that is my decision, an illegal decision, but a decision none the less.

You obviously have no idea how much drugs do for econimies. They keep hundres of thousands employed. The authorities who monitor them, the rehab clinics, the nurses like your partner, the money spend by the dealers on various luxuries. Drugs keep the world spinning. As long as their is demand there will always be supply.

To think i could have the death penalty, for having a couple of ecstacy tablets on me is just insance. Im not hurting anyone? Is it really that bad?

It makes more sense to have the death penalty for drink driving, then having a few drugs on you.

lukeaye · 2 January 2010

bunyip said:
Unless we introduce punishment so severe that it absolutely horrifies and frightens people half to death, crime will continue to spiral out of control in Australia.

I didnt know crime was spiraling out of control?

Have you ever done anything illegal bunyip? If so would you take that hard line approach with yourself?

What if your son or daughter got caught "experementing" with a single ecstacy tablet, because they succumbed to peer pressure?

Would you still lock her up for life? Get a grip on reality my man

Garpal Gumnut · 2 January 2010

It seems that we are concentrating way too much on "the crime" rather than the fact that this man was "mentally ill".

So if he had committed murder or paedophilia or trafficked drugs, matters little in the Chinese system. They top anyone guilty of these offences.

In our society "mental illness" is very common and very easy to fake, according to a trickcyclist mate of mine. Especially when a court case is looming.

Even the official figures show that 25% of the population are mentally ill and an even higher proportion of those gaoled are likewise afflicted. and these I suppose are figures for people who cannot fake.

My mate says that some Psychiatrists do reports depending on what side are paying them, so if its the prosecution they will say sane, and if its the defence they will say bipolar.

Bipolar seems very common nowadays, every manjack seems to have it.

http://www.lawfoundation.net.au/ljf/app/CF3E9343EC3E96E1CA25718E000594DE.html

These are some figures from The Law and Justice Foundation website.

High prevalence disorders: adults

Figures taken from the adult component of the NSMHW reveal that an estimated 17.7 to 18% of adults in Australia had experienced an anxiety, affective or substance use disorder, or a combination of these, in the 12 months preceding the 1997 survey. These rates mean that, overall, approximately 2 383 000 Australian adults had a high prevalence mental disorder.32 The NSW estimate at 17.4% (approximately 800 000 people) was not markedly different from the national average.33

Breaking down these figures further into the separate disorders, the prevalence of affective disorders was shown to be 5.8% of all adults within the Australian adult population and 5.4% of adults in NSW. Anxiety disorders were found to affect 9.7% of adults within Australia and 9.9% of adults in NSW. With respect to substance use disorders, the prevalence was shown to be 7.7% of all adults in the Australian population, a figure which was matched exactly in NSW adults.

Psychotic mental illnesses: adults

Prevalence figures for psychotic illness were reported in a study examining the low prevalence disorders component of the NSMHW.34 This component studied people living with psychotic disorders in catchment areas in the Australian Capital Territory, Queensland, Victoria and Western Australia. Prevalence estimates for the national population were extrapolated from these samples.

Nationally, the prevalence of psychotic disorders in the adult population is estimated to be in the range of 4 to 7 per 1000 people.35 The range of prevalence is dependent on the area under study, with rural and remote areas being under-reported in the study.36 Schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorders (as per the DSM-IV)37 account for over 60% of reported psychotic disorders.38

Co-morbid substance use disorder (dual diagnosis)39 complicates the course of psychotic illness in a substantial proportion of cases: 30% report a history of alcohol abuse, 25.1% a history of cannabis abuse and 13.2% a history of other substance abuse.40 According to Australia’s Health:

Although less common than disorders such as anxiety and depression, psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia represent a very serious group of illnesses that affect brain functioning, perceptions, emotions and communication.41

Overall prevalence estimate: adults

In relation to their figure of approximately one in five Australians experiencing a mental illness, the authors of The Mental Health of Australians state:

The overall figure for any mental disorder is likely to be more than one in five after neurasthenia, psychosis, personality disorder and cognitive impairment are included, and after one adds in the fifth of the population who could not be contacted or who refused to be interviewed in the Survey.42

Akmal Shaikh - China executes mentally ill Briton

condog

Julia

In Memoriam

Tink

Fishbulb

bunyip

condog

bunyip

Fishbulb

bunyip

bunyip

Fishbulb

Tink

bunyip

Fishbulb

Fishbulb

BradK

BradK

lukeaye

lukeaye

Garpal Gumnut

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