Worst drought ever

[123enen]

At the end of the day, if farming is so outrageously profitable and producers are raking it in, then fewer of our best land and most productive farms would be broken up for weekenders and hobby farms for city folk made wealthy on the back of the property boom.

http://abc.net.au/rural/outlook2005/stories/story13.htm

ABARE says agriculture a good investment
Despite the drought, ABARE says average returns on investment for farm businesses over the past five years have outstripped those for the money and share market.
ABARE's survey's branch manager Rhonda Treadwell told the Outlook Conference, there's been a steady improvement in the financial performance of Australian farms over the past two years.
______________________________________________________________

Profitable enough for the big boys to out bid the hobby farmers.

AAc, Futuris, Queensland cotton, etc,

My point really relates back to the very first three threads ( the original topic)

I would not like my tax money to go towards "easing the pain" of those that lapped it up at our expense during the good times ( and MLA confirm the good times). I never heard MLA / farming community say "while things are as good as they are we wish to give some relief to the Aust. consumer".

 

[BSD]

My thoughts are that we should stop all overseas payments to who ever & direct the billion plus we pay , to helping our farmers now !
Your thoughts please

Bob.

Just going back to the start.

I agree to this concept (even though I dont understand what you are talking about) as long as in the next bear-market a similar scheme operates for Stockbrokers.

Heck, Cotton Farmers have far more assets than Stockbrokers, so I cant see an equity argument. I could certainly use a tax free $500K slushfund like the farm management deposit

 

[Realist]

It is about time people stopped moaning about the drought.

Australia is the dryest continent in the world (apart from Antarctica) - farmers get huge amounts of cheap land in areas known to be very dry. Then they moan about it not raining enough. No sh*t, of course it doesn't rain much! If you want rain got to New Zealand or England.

If we need lamb, beef, veges, bananas or whatever buy them from Tasmania or NZ or overseas. They need to buy Australian uranium, nickel etc.

It is a global economy.

Survival of the fittest, if you are farming a desert expect poor results.

And I do not want to have to pay $40 for a roast beef, or $12 a kg of bananas because it hasn't rained here, or rained too much - import from overseas for christ sakes.

 

[Julia]

It is about time people stopped moaning about the drought.

Australia is the dryest continent in the world (apart from Antarctica) - farmers get huge amounts of cheap land in areas known to be very dry. Then they moan about it not raining enough. No sh*t, of course it doesn't rain much! If you want rain got to New Zealand or England.

If we need lamb, beef, veges, bananas or whatever buy them from Tasmania or NZ or overseas. They need to buy Australian uranium, nickel etc.

It is a global economy.

Survival of the fittest, if you are farming a desert expect poor results.

And I do not want to have to pay $40 for a roast beef, or $12 a kg of bananas because it hasn't rained here, or rained too much - import from overseas for christ sakes.

Completely agree with every word, Realist.

Julia

 

[2020hindsight]

It is about time people stopped moaning about the drought.
- import from overseas for christ sakes.

Realist if I didnt know you better Id think you were a selfish bludger who did nothing for the country except trade on shares and other self interested activities. Australia's economy rides on the sheeps back - or it it the shepherd's back?
PS Guess that "rides on the sheeps back" is past tens - now figurative for
""at least partly" on the bush'es contribution"

 

[happytrader]

Talk about out of the mouth of babes. My son was telling me he had heard that every four days a farmer commits suicide. You hear about the murder suicides but the actual suicides are exempt from media reporting.
I reckon everyone needs a sideline and a range of identities and occuptions they can feel free to adopt. If everything you are is tied to your identity and you only have one, then you're in for a rough ride unless you can take a step back, adjust or adapt.

I also note the government has unveiled a $837million package aimed at older workers, aged 25 and over, who left school early and want to further their education o' people aged 30 and over who want to switch career and start an apprenticeship but cannot afford to go back to an apprentice's wage.

Cheers
Happytrader

 

[2020hindsight]

It is about time people stopped moaning about the drought.
... Then they moan about it not raining enough. No sh*t, of course it doesn't rain much! If you want rain got to New Zealand or England.
If we need lamb, beef, veges, bananas or whatever buy them from Tasmania or NZ or overseas. ..Survival of the fittest, if you are farming a desert expect poor results.

Realist - If youre saying that hard headed economic models cannot take into account the plight of people who live west of Katoomba, around Bourke etc, then Id say let's soften the model a bit. (refer Happytrader's post below)
There are enough electorates in the bush, albeit dwindling in population, to ensure that the govt of the day (and I care not which) takes at least some notice of their plight. I think you'll find the govt of the present day is closer to my thinking than yours on this. (although there's still a bludy gr8 gap between them and me) And I think that there are still a few city folk who don't think only of their own plight to add a couple more votes.
Priority given to a pipeline perhaps, or better still topping up the aquifers near their perimeters (saves miles of piping).
But let's not just say "they knew what they were getting themselves in for" (almost certainly incorrect, things are worsening). I just don't think that "survival of the fattest" or "let em eat cake" is an appropriate reaction. The French were hard headed in those days too. :behead:

 

[Realist]

Realist if I didnt know you better Id think you were a selfish bludger who did nothing for the country except trade on shares and other self interested activities.

YEP, and proud of it!!

Australia's economy rides on the sheeps back - or it it the shepherd's back?

Australia rides on the miners back now doesn't it?

 

[Realist]

Realist - If youre saying that hard headed economic models cannot take into account the plight of people who live west of Katoomba, around Bourke etc, then Id say let's soften the model a bit. (refer Happytrader's post below)
There are enough electorates in the bush, albeit dwindling in population, to ensure that the govt of the day (and I care not which) takes at least some notice of their plight. I think you'll find the govt of the present day is closer to my thinking than yours on this. (although there's still a bludy gr8 gap between them and me) And I think that there are still a few city folk who don't think only of their own plight to add a couple more votes.
Priority given to a pipeline perhaps, or better still topping up the aquifers near their perimeters (saves miles of piping).
But let's not just say "they knew what they were getting themselves in for" (almost certainly incorrect, things are worsening). I just don't think that "survival of the fattest" or "let em eat cake" is an appropriate reaction. The French were hard headed in those days too. :behead:

So if someone in Alaska wanted to start a farm growing pineapples and the snow ruined their crops the government should bail them out year after year?

I think not. Obviously pineapple cultivation and snow don't mix, much like farming and deserts don't mix.

I do sympathise with the farmers, but I believe they need to bite the bullet now and accept most of Australia is too dry to farm.

The government should help these people relocate and/or reskill to other jobs, not just pay compensation year after year when it doesn't rain.

The drought aint gonna end, outback Australia aint gonna be getting wetter, it is only gonna get worse. Time to change.

 

[2020hindsight]

So if someone in Alaska wanted to start a farm growing pineapples and the snow ruined their crops the government should bail them out year after year?..Time to change.

Mate the way global warming is going - it'll be too hot to grow pineapples in Alaska soon.

 

[Julia]

Mate the way global warming is going - it'll be too hot to grow pineapples in Alaska soon.

2020,

We know you're being flippant and facetious here, but it's a way of avoiding having to agree that Realist is actually right on this one. It's not a matter of being unsympathetic or unkind to farmers, but I just don't see why they should be regarded any differently from people in any other industry whose jobs have become redundant because of technology or any other factor.

I can absolutely understand how people who have lived their whole lives in the country to the exclusion of any other way of life must develop an immense attachment to that land, but sometimes we all just have to be realistic and understand that the way of life we once were able to enjoy is simply not sustainable.

As Happytrader has pointed out, the government has announced a package of retraining options. Millions of people have had to retrain and completely redirect their planned way of earning a living. I don't see why farmers should be any different IF it's clear that climatic conditions mean that their capacity to sustain themselves on their land is simply not cost effective without ongoing government (taxpayer) subsidies.

Julia

 

[2020hindsight]

2020, We know you're being flippant and facetious here, but it's a way of avoiding having to agree that Realist is actually right on this one. It's not a matter of being unsympathetic or unkind to farmers, but I just don't see why they should be regarded any differently from people in any other industry whose jobs have become redundant because of technology or any other factor.... I don't see why farmers should be any different IF it's clear that climatic conditions mean that their capacity to sustain themselves on their land is simply not cost effective without ongoing government (taxpayer) subsidies.Julia

Julia guess Ill read Malcolm Turnbull's "Federal Water Report" whatever its called (make that a summary of it - I get far too much sleep as it is lol) before I comment further. I dont agree with Realist, nor you if you say that the farmers have to take it on single handedly - that its their problem and not "ours" - that some sort of "user pays" philosophy applies. This might be a global economy as Realist says - it's also a national problem.
But my guess is that Malcolm Turnbull's not quite ready to throw in the towel just yet. First test for him after all (if you ignore his loss to the Royalists over the Republican debate). I'm pretty terrified that they are going to talk a lot but balk at anything that costs real bucks, that they'll tinker with the margins and say that "better management, etcetc" when all that will achieve is a better sharing of the current resources, probably cutting out some industries like cotton ( that were being encouraged a few years ago sheesh). Maybe the problem's too big for the surplus to even look at. What price a desert? What price a deserted Australian centre? Proactive Intervention hasn't even had its surface scratched yet.
Read any of Smurf's posts. We've gotta try at least. Don't just say "I'm off to NZ" - In any case most of them are coming over here - to our cities of course. Ive got no problem with that - as long as their kids play Rugby for Aus not the allblacks.

Sadly this next proposal is tongue in cheek, (even I have to be realistic at times I guess) - There was a rather novel proposal put forward in the 60's. An underground nuclear explosion out near the Alice - or wherever you needed a big underground tank - just large enough not to break the surface , you'd be left with a HUUGE vitreous lined flask - easily accessed from the surface. It would be waterproof, After 50 years (100?) the claim was that the radioactivity would be at sensible levels - You could fill it and it would become the centre for a thriving oasis .
The people who proposed this (the pioneers of lateral thinking atomic energy) also proposed a harbour up in the Pilbara ( instead of having loading facilities like Cape Lambert 2km out into the ocean). - their answer - one big bomb should do it. We'd all have to pleased they were voted down on that one - but it was a serious proposal at one time. But back to the topic - let's see if there isnt some way to spend a few (billion) dollars at help apply some suntan lotion to this sunburnt country we all love.
"her beauty and her terror, the wide brown wife for me" - PS don't tell the missus I said that pls.

PS Just as my tone to Realist (and you - implied - since you agreed with him) has become more "middle ground", so too has his (and yours) to me, conceding that he (and you) have sympathy for them after all. That wasnt evident in his original post. And my reply to that first post was more blunt and arguably argumentative than I intended. I guess that's what discussion is about - not that it really matters lol. It's not as if this is the UN security council for instance. If I know Realist, criticism is like water off a ducks back. - or rather ..he thrives on it !

 

[nioka]

I farmed in a fairly big way for 40 years or more. Can not ever remember lapping it up. Had a few very good years and they ALMOST made up for the bad times. The best thing that ever happened to me was to stop trying, sell the farm and use the money and time better. If you haven't been there you would not understand.

 

[2020hindsight]

So if someone in Alaska wanted to start a farm growing pineapples and the snow ruined their crops ... Obviously pineapple cultivation and snow don't mix, much like farming and deserts don't mix...Time to change.

Realist, (since you open up the topic of farming in NZ and /or Alaska)- In some parts of NZ SI, they have to get up every winter morning and hover over the vineyards in helicopters to blow away the frost. Never underestimate the grit and determination of farmers mate. BTW, It's not that Eskimos aren't smart enough to grow pineapples, it's just that they prefer whale blubber lol. One was overheard to say, after tasting pineapple - " I'd prefer to eat kayak!!" Aussie farmers are really resourceful folk given a chance. (that's the main point Im trying to make).
Am I being flippant about the pineapples - of course.
Are you being flippant to "write off" the big part of Australia's agricultural and grazing centre as "desert" - and turn your back, walk away, all help denied? Id like to think so.

 

[Smurf1976]

I think we ought to give cloud seeding a go. It's not a practical means of ending the current drought (since you need clouds to seed) but it's a cheap means of increasing rainfall on average and thus filling the dams, getting the soil moisture back up, putting more flow in the rivers etc in the future. That way, we'll be better prepared when the next drought arrives.

Whilst there are some who claim it doesn't work, it's been working quite well in Tasmania for the past 40 years and it is remarkably cheap. In the Tas context, it's spending $1 million a year and getting 20%+ increases in rainfall in the target areas. Indeed some on the West Coast say it works too well.

All it needs is a few light aircraft, pilots and the necessary equipment. All up, it ought to be possible to do a mainland trial for a few $ million over a selected target area (eg the entire state of Victoria) and see what happens. Worst case we waste a relatively trivial amount of money. Best case it fixes the problem and we get more rain than we otherwise would have received.

Obviously there's a big difference in the climatic conditions between Tasmania and NSW but it would seem a little strange if Tas was the only place it worked. And the evidence from the target areas in Tas (which is only part of the Hydro catchment areas - mostly the headwaters) is pretty strong to say that it works. In theory, cloud seeding could be pushed a lot harder in Tas, about 3 times as much in terms of extra power generated, although that would mean targeting many towns etc and no doubt would be anything but popular - hence the focus on the headwaters.

Snowy Hydro has started a trial of cloud seeding too but they're doing it from the ground rather than using aircraft as in Tasmania. Obviously it will take many years of data, the trial is for 6 years, to assess effectiveness given that rainfall varies from year to year naturally.

If we could get this to work nationally then, whilst it is not a total solution, it ought to help considerably, particularly in terms of putting more water in rivers and dams. More water for the cities too.

Greenhouse gas emissions from the aircraft would be more than offset by the additional hydro-electricity produced as long as the relevant catchments in Qld, NSW / Snowy and Victoria were targetted along with agricultural and urban water supply areas.

Cloud seeding FAQ's are here. Note that the map only shows the cloud seeding target area and not the entire catchments which are considerably larger.

http://www.hydro.com.au/home/Energy/Cloud+Seeding/FAQs+Cloud+Seeding.htm

 

[2020hindsight]

I think we ought to give cloud seeding a go. ... Indeed some on the West Coast say it works too well.

Smurf, thanks for the positive attitude. Looking at it though, you have the advantage in Tas of not being accused of stealing rain that would have fallen downwind. (West Coast of NZ is unlikely to complain But in Aus mainland (just like the problems with sharing the rivers, we have to share the clouds - if they seed at Parkes, the people in Bourke would not be amused. Bit like water rights, they'd be selling "cloud rights" maybe . Still if it can be shown that its "a bird in the hand" instead of a "pint in the sky" that drifts by and disperses, then maybe...

 

[2020hindsight]

Smurf, ... Bit like water rights, they'd be selling "cloud rights" maybe .

I just have this image of farmers running round western NSW with a bucket each and looking up (like a long distance cricket match) crying out " mine, mine, !!" - not that its that bludy funny.

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200611/s1783497.htm

Just a quick thought..

The bad news:- We are going through "the worst drought in living memory".

More bad news:- We are living longer.

meanwhile the Govt can't decide to buy out Cubby (cotton on Qld border who have a "diversion channel" to get "their share" that is wider that the Darling river) - or do anything proactive really - just more gabfest... so what's new?

But the Member for Mallee, John Forrest, says ...yesterday's measures are not enough.

"I don't think the premiers or the Prime Minister get it, we have 24 weeks of supply left in the Murray River at our current rate of consumption, 24 weeks, that's five months the Murray River is going to run out of water, we need a national declaration of an emergency," he said.

"We need a moratorium and everything reviewed immediately. They just don't understand, I mean it's nonsense to think we are going to get enormous rain over the summer - that will be just a disaster for horticulture - we are in a state of emergency.

 

[constable]

It is very scary. Here in ballarat we are now on stage 4 restrictions meaning you cant water your garden at all. I heard that a bloke last thurs got the first $3000 fine for washing his car . Meanwhile yesterday we spent $900 on a pressure pump and fittings so we can pump water out of our inground pool to keep the garden alive!
Next project is to hook all the storm water and some grey water off the house and into the pool.
Once ive done that my prediction is the drought will break!

 

[2020hindsight]

.. Once ive done that my prediction is the drought will break!

Lol - I like the fact that you can still smile. Not sure it qualifies as Murphy's Law if the drought breaks - but I hope for once Murphy works for the good