Why are we saying 'sorry' to the aboriginals?!

[2020hindsight]

Half my family are now expats because of what they can earn overseas. If this economy dives because of Labours focus on social issues instead of economic issues I think the expac percentange will increase, and social unrest could go anywhere.

rob and/or coll,
:topic when you posted this (back a few, #267 I think) I couldn't help smiling - are you aware that Johnny Howard as treasurer in the 70's did his damnedest to impose income tax on expatriate Aussies even on money earnt overseas. - but you'll be pleased to know that he also screwed that up

 

[2020hindsight]

and 2020, 1) i don't have kids 2) if i abused my kids then i suppose they should be taken away, which is the policy today for most people (except aboriginals it seems)

Relevance ?
All you are demonstrating disarray is that you don't understand what happened. Nor did you listen ( it seems) to either Rudd or Nelson on Wednesday.

 

[disarray]

i don't know 2020, you're the one who asked the question

 

[moneymajix]

Just heard on radio news.

Dalai Lama has written to Kevin Rudd saying "sorry" was the right thing to do.

 

[bunyip]

Just heard on radio news.

Dalai Lama has written to Kevin Rudd saying "sorry" was the right thing to do.

WOWEEEEEEEE.....That proves it then......must be right if the Dalai bloody Lama says so! lol

 

[Julia]

Helping people is not about giving them handouts. It is about giving back their sense of self esteem, so that they can help themselves. Dont give a man a bag of rice ready to cook - give him the knowledge to grow and harvest the rice himself.

Prospector, earlier in this thread I suggested that, rather than send teams of builders to the communities to build houses, better to send people who can teach the local people to build their own houses, to work alongside them.
Then, hopefully, the finished houses will be lived in with a pride of achievement and ownership and cared for accordingly. Wouldn't this be a start to changing attitudes amongst both races?

We have had our barney's, haven't we! How do we learn though? By listening, taking on board, accepting others thoughts, discussing, maybe convincing : - I am sure we have both learnt a lot!

Yes, and your exchange has been an example of two people being prepared to do just that. Doubt you'll ever agree, but you've both shown respect for the other's point of view - something to be much admired and emulated.

 

[moXJO]

Once again another poster boo-hooing over money that they feel should have gone to them or similar - no discussion of the principles or past events , facts etc

Boo freakin' hoo - cry me a river. You've got no idea what you're talking about - what generalised rubbish.

And really what a laugh ...as for Geoff Clarke - who gives a fat rats? - one person doesn't represent the aboriginal race just the same as any number of scumbag whites don't represent their race.

How's your bitterness and greed going?

From your posts you seem to have no idea what’s going on. And the fact that handouts make things worse. Not wanting money to be wasted by being pissed up against a wall is a lot different to greed.

 

[Happy]

From ABC, 15 Feb. 08

INTERNATIONAL LAW COULD BE USED FOR STOLEN GENERATIONS COMPO


A Northern Territory law expert says this week's historic apology to the Stolen Generations will not enhance the ability of Aboriginal people to claim compensation from the federal, state or territory governments.
Matthew Storey led an unsuccessful Stolen Generations compensation case for Lorna Cubillo and Peter Gunner a decade ago.
Mr Storey, who is the head of Charles Darwin University's Law Department, says Federal Parliament's 'sorry' motion will not open a floodgate of similar claims.
But he says international law could be applied.
"International law would see the situation of the Stolen Generations as one of a gross violation of human rights and has it's own analysis of the appropriate way to deal with that.
"The appropriate way under international law is to pay compensation as part of a reparations package."

If one can become Australian Citizen, surely there must an equivalent to become Aboriginal.

 

[bunyip]

Prospector, earlier in this thread I suggested that, rather than send teams of builders to the communities to build houses, better to send people who can teach the local people to build their own houses, to work alongside them.
Then, hopefully, the finished houses will be lived in with a pride of achievement and ownership and cared for accordingly. Wouldn't this be a start to changing attitudes amongst both races?






Yes, and your exchange has been an example of two people being prepared to do just that. Doubt you'll ever agree, but you've both shown respect for the other's point of view - something to be much admired and emulated.

Prospector......I do beleive that Julia has just paid both of us a compliment.
Isn't she nice?
Thank you Julia. We'll continue exercising restraint by speaking politely and resisting the urge to rip out each other's throats!

 

[mikat]

below is the article on the first payout of the "stolen "generation
dont the facts show everybody that he was better in foster care?
his father died at a young age, his mother couldnt care for him, so isnt this the same as a child welfare organisation taking away a child , black or white for their own good?
and to the children of these people. where do you think you would be living today if it werent for the government. in a nice house, going to school, having a job, or sitting in squalor in some town camp, an alcoholic with a short life expectancy, diabetes, no job, house, anything.
so i again i say sorry. sorry that we gave you a future, a longer life, an education, better health,

THE first member of the stolen generation to successfully sue for compensation has been awarded another $250,000 on top of his historic payout.
Victorian Bruce Trevorrow, 51, last August won $525,000 for false imprisonment, pain and suffering after he was taken from his parents when he was just over a year old.
The latest payout comes as Prime Minister Kevin Rudd prepares to use a legal loophole to avoid compensation claims when he makes his stolen generation apology.
Constitutional law expert George Williams said parliamentary privilege would give the Government "iron-clad" protection from payout claims.
"No liability can arise so long as it is done in Parliament. What is said in Parliament cannot be questioned in court," he said.
Yesterday, the South Australian Supreme Court awarded Mr Trevorrow an extra $250,000 in lieu of interest.
Mr Trevorrow's lawyers had argued he should get $800,000 in interest, calculated from the time he was removed from his family, while the state argued he should receive $75,500.
Mr Trevorrow was not in court yesterday.
Outside court yesterday, his lawyer, Claire O'Connor, called on the states to set up a compensation scheme for stolen generation members.
Individuals suing for compensation were creating an expensive and time-consuming process, she said.

"Now that we have this judgment that explains liability and explains practice, it would be, I think, preferable to set up a compensation scheme," Ms O'Connor said.
"They've got to be cheaper."
Tasmania has established a compensation fund and last year South Australia sought a report on its effectiveness.

SA Attorney-General Michael Atkinson said the state's Crown Solicitor was considering whether to appeal against points of law in yesterday's judgment.

After last year's $525,000 payout, Mr Trevorrow said: "At the end of the day you can't put a dollar value on what has happened to me."

He was 13 months old when on Christmas Day, 1957, he was driven from his Coorong home southeast of Adelaide to Adelaide's Children's Hospital with stomach pains.

Two weeks later, under the authority of the Aborigines Protection Board, he was given to a woman who became his foster parent, without the permission of his parents. About six months later, Mr Trevorrow's mother wrote to the board asking when she could have her son back.

"I am writing to ask if you would let me know how baby Bruce is and how long before I can have him home?" she wrote in July 1958.

"I have not forgot I have a son in there."

The court heard the hospital lied, telling her the baby was making good progress and needed to stay for treatment.

Mr Trevorrow never again saw his father, who died eight years later.

His foster family told him he was white, even as children taunted him with slurs such as "boong" and "darkie".

He developed psychological and behavioural problems.

At three years old, he had trichotilliomania, where children pull out their hair.

He was diagnosed as depressed, had a speech defect and chewed his clothing.
After repeated threats to give him away, he was returned to his mother and siblings when he was nine.
It was only then he found out he was an Aborigine.

However, his mother was unable to care for him, and at 10 he was placed into institutional care.
Mr Trevorrow suffered life-long depression and insecurity, and became an alcoholic.
Last year, Justice Gray found the SA Government had acted without legal authority when it placed Mr Trevorrow with a foster family and had been a material cause of his depression.
The state denied it unlawfully removed Mr Trevorrow.

 

[mikat]

some aboriginal people have the skills and motovation to build their own houses, but very few have any respect, pride or anything else for their own or anyone elses property.just visit alice springs and the comunities around it and see for yourself

Prospector, earlier in this thread I suggested that, rather than send teams of builders to the communities to build houses, better to send people who can teach the local people to build their own houses, to work alongside them.
Then, hopefully, the finished houses will be lived in with a pride of achievement and ownership and cared for accordingly. Wouldn't this be a start to changing attitudes amongst both races?






Yes, and your exchange has been an example of two people being prepared to do just that. Doubt you'll ever agree, but you've both shown respect for the other's point of view - something to be much admired and emulated.

 

[Happy]

From Yahoo7

Friday February 15 2008, 11:22 AM

GILLARD REITERATES OPPOSITION TO COMPO


The federal government says it remains opposed to compensation for the stolen generation, despite plans for Victoria's first stolen generation claim.
Days after Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's historic apology, Reservoir man Neville Austin, 44, revealed plans to launch an action against Victoria in the first case of its kind.

His barrister Jack Rush QC said he had been working on the case with Mr Austin for 12 months.
But Acting Prime Minister Julia Gillard reiterated the government's stance against compensation.
"We have said no to compensation, there have been people who have asked the federal government to create a national compensation fund," Ms Gillard told Fairfax Radio Network.

But she said she would have to check with Attorney-General Robert McClelland to see if the government would be specifically represented in the Austin case.
The head of Stolen Generations Victoria and Mr Austin's cousin, Lyn Austin, said while she could not comment on Mr Austin's case, dozens more were preparing similar claims.
"I cannot make comment on that case at all, but ... I do know that there are another 30 or 40 that are going to be doing a civil action claim," she told ABC radio in Melbourne.

I don’t think reiterated opposition to anything is going to make any difference to what is going to happen next.

Best to think about repercussions and obtain detailed legal advice before making grand statements.

Shouldn’t we make Stolen Compo thread?

 

[Julia]

Prospector......I do beleive that Julia has just paid both of us a compliment.
Isn't she nice?
Thank you Julia. We'll continue exercising restraint by speaking politely and resisting the urge to rip out each other's throats!

 

[Joe Blow]

some aboriginal people have the skills and motovation to build their own houses, but very few have any respect, pride or anything else for their own or anyone elses property

Sadly, it is these sorts of posts that in my view are now stepping over the line and bashing an entire race... and I've had just about enough of them.

This thread is about the issue of saying sorry, not bashing aboriginal Australians or white Australians so those who want to spew their racist garbage instead of discussing the issue at hand can take it to another forum. It's not welcome here.

Any more posts along these lines will be removed.

 

[Whiskers]

below is the article on the first payout of the "stolen "generation
dont the facts show everybody that he was better in foster care?

A bit of proper perspective is elementary if you are going to make judgemental assertions like that. You obviously need to keep things in chronological order and proper context.

Firstly, in the case you just highlighed he had both parents when...

He was 13 months old... under the authority of the Aborigines Protection Board, he was given to a woman who became his foster parent, without the permission of his parents

Obviously the judge believed the Aborigines Protection Board acted outside the law and or the scope of their supporting act. They lied to the parents for the express purpose of stealing their baby.

I don't care whether you are black, white, brindle, or a monkey, most animals recognise their mother and it has been well established that a childs proper mental and social development is directly related to the bond in the first few years with their mother in particular. The lack of a loving caring mother substituted with an alein mother trying to convince him that he is white sets his psycholigical development back to worse than 0, hence social disorders and depression etc.

his father died at a young age, his mother couldnt care for him, so isnt this the same as a child welfare organisation taking away a child , black or white for their own good?

Firstly, his mother was obviously traumatised from having her child stolen from her, enough to cause anyone including white people into depression and anxiety disorders.

Secondly, it is not taking a child away for their own good. The mother would most likely have been healthy but for the hospital taking her child away, lying to her and not allowing her to have contact. It would obviously be in the best interest of the the mother and child if they had been honest with the mother and afforded her the same treatment a white mother was afforded.

and to the children of these people. where do you think you would be living today if it werent for the government.

Obviously, living with their family without the trauma of racist descriminationary effects of white people if nothing else.

in a nice house, going to school, having a job,

Mikat, if you had one iota of understanding of what it is like to be removed from your family for no good reason you would know that these material so called niceities you refer to mean nothing in comparason.

or sitting in squalor in some town camp, an alcoholic with a short life expectancy, diabetes, no job, house, anything

Town camp... The state created 'RESERVATIONS TO PLACE THEM OUT OF THE WAY', and where racist elements of society didn't exclude them from society the gov did. I challenge you to show me that white people would do any different if they were treated the same for generations.

so i again i say sorry. sorry that we gave you a future, a longer life, an education, better health,

A future, huh... you are as hypocritically idiotic as the so called 'Aborigines Protection Board'. I have often spoken about toxic people and how they twist things around to try to make the illogical sound logical.

Apart from having no reasonable sense of humanity and the needs for the proper emotional development of children in particular, you have a poor interpretation of the law. The mindset is a know-all, self-centered, selfrightious, domineering to dictitorial and you continue to mock the compassion of those who genuinely are sorry for the way they were treated.

 

[rederob]

While discussion in this thread meandered from rampant racism to pissing in one another's pockets, at the national level Nelson was caught out for the hypocrite he is on the "sorry" subject.

By using the words of a Auntie Faye Lynam, who was taken from her parent, and using them as he did without her consent, or without knowing the consequences, were unforgivable errors of judgement from Nelson.

Yet these were merely headline matters.

The real story was unfolding in the House and in the Senate. Nelson's "sorry" speech sowed the seeds for perpetual division of our country.

Nelson was unable to confine his speech to the matter at hand: That of acknowledging the occasion was for those that understood the importance of saying sorry or who needed sorry to be said.

Nelson opened the compensation window and then jumped into the present issues of abuse and neglect in aboriginal communities. He did other more clever things in his speech than most realised, as it was crafted from a perspective that neatly compartmentalised the systemic destruction of a culture, and shifted the blame away from well intentioned white people to impersonal governments and, ultimately, aboriginals themselves.

Subsequent parliamentary debate followed the leader's respective leads. Government speakers were considerate and understanding. Opposition speakers relentlessly played a blame game. It pretty much ended with the Opposition falling behind Howard and his failed policies, while Rudd's team are trying to set anew agenda.

 

[2020hindsight]

I post this to the "file" - so that this thread records all opinions including this one..
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2162402.htm

Why they turned their backs 14 February 2008, 10:30 Ali Cobby Eckermann

Yesterday morning I sat in my house at Titjikala, on the edge of the Simpson Desert, with kinship family and friends watching Prime Minister Kevin Rudd give his apology to the Stolen Generations of Australia.

An overdue and unbelievable moment.

I could not fault his speech, and the applause that followed was very heartfelt and I hope was felt right across the nation. I loved how he walked to warmly embrace the members of the Stolen Generations in the Parliament – actions follow words. Some of those people are known to us.

I felt tense listening to the following speech by Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson.

Maybe his speech was given with 'good intent', as indeed he reminded listeners that the removal policies were issued also with 'good intent'.

I did not need his reminders of the past or reminders of the issues that Indigenous people face today. I wondered how many hours (not days) he has actually spent sitting under the trees listening to Aboriginal people in remote community.

Segments of his speech reminded me of my childhood, trying to fit into a model of society that did not match my thoughts and feelings and went against my DNA. No matter how much I tried I always fell short of the benchmark and was often punished for that.

I don't remember being asked how I felt, what I wanted to do or hearing, 'gee you look sad, is there anything I can do?'

And Mr Nelson - of course I know all the personal gains I received from growing up with my much loved adopted Lutheran family. I also remember how hard it was fitting in to the local community where I was raised.

When the crowds turned their backs during his speech I understood their actions.

I think he gave a somewhat selfish speech, trying to justify the past 11 'reconciliation-squashing' years under the Howard Government. ....

Maybe we can say thanks to Brendan for getting it half right, (benefit of the doubt) ... and move on ?

.... At least Mr Nelson said 'sorry' in the end and people's high spirits could soar again. His speech is still historic, and his legacy.

But the day was not about Brendan Nelson or his political party!

The day was about finally recognising this chapter in Australian history. About finally acknowledging the injustices that have caused so much pain and suffering. About finally allowing all Australians to come together for healing.

It may take some time but hey, it was a bloody great start yesterday morning.

It felt good to remember that Mr Nelson is not the leader of our country, that Kevin Rudd is Prime Minister. God bless you Kevin!

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=259165&highlight=quarrel#post259165

 

[vida]

He was kidnapped and stolen from his parents. End of story. No permission was obtained. That is a crime. End of story. The motivation was not 'good intention' as is claimed by the opposition. The motive was to expune the aboriginal race, to breed it out by removing children and placing them into white families to hopefully eradicate the culture. There was no good intention, the government of the day did not respect or care about aboriginal culture or its people, otherwise they would not have murdered them as if they were pests on colonising, nor ripped their children from their arms etc etc. just read the historical documents to see what happened. The well intentioned thing to have done in those days was to help the whole communities have better food, health care and education not steal babies... they deserve every penny of compensation that they can get.

below is the article on the first payout of the "stolen "generation
dont the facts show everybody that he was better in foster care?
his father died at a young age, his mother couldnt care for him, so isnt this the same as a child welfare organisation taking away a child , black or white for their own good?
and to the children of these people. where do you think you would be living today if it werent for the government. in a nice house, going to school, having a job, or sitting in squalor in some town camp, an alcoholic with a short life expectancy, diabetes, no job, house, anything.
so i again i say sorry. sorry that we gave you a future, a longer life, an education, better health,

THE first member of the stolen generation to successfully sue for compensation has been awarded another $250,000 on top of his historic payout.
Victorian Bruce Trevorrow, 51, last August won $525,000 for false imprisonment, pain and suffering after he was taken from his parents when he was just over a year old.
The latest payout comes as Prime Minister Kevin Rudd prepares to use a legal loophole to avoid compensation claims when he makes his stolen generation apology.
Constitutional law expert George Williams said parliamentary privilege would give the Government "iron-clad" protection from payout claims.
"No liability can arise so long as it is done in Parliament. What is said in Parliament cannot be questioned in court," he said.
Yesterday, the South Australian Supreme Court awarded Mr Trevorrow an extra $250,000 in lieu of interest.
Mr Trevorrow's lawyers had argued he should get $800,000 in interest, calculated from the time he was removed from his family, while the state argued he should receive $75,500.
Mr Trevorrow was not in court yesterday.
Outside court yesterday, his lawyer, Claire O'Connor, called on the states to set up a compensation scheme for stolen generation members.
Individuals suing for compensation were creating an expensive and time-consuming process, she said.

"Now that we have this judgment that explains liability and explains practice, it would be, I think, preferable to set up a compensation scheme," Ms O'Connor said.
"They've got to be cheaper."
Tasmania has established a compensation fund and last year South Australia sought a report on its effectiveness.

SA Attorney-General Michael Atkinson said the state's Crown Solicitor was considering whether to appeal against points of law in yesterday's judgment.

After last year's $525,000 payout, Mr Trevorrow said: "At the end of the day you can't put a dollar value on what has happened to me."

He was 13 months old when on Christmas Day, 1957, he was driven from his Coorong home southeast of Adelaide to Adelaide's Children's Hospital with stomach pains.

Two weeks later, under the authority of the Aborigines Protection Board, he was given to a woman who became his foster parent, without the permission of his parents. About six months later, Mr Trevorrow's mother wrote to the board asking when she could have her son back.

"I am writing to ask if you would let me know how baby Bruce is and how long before I can have him home?" she wrote in July 1958.

"I have not forgot I have a son in there."

The court heard the hospital lied, telling her the baby was making good progress and needed to stay for treatment.

Mr Trevorrow never again saw his father, who died eight years later.

His foster family told him he was white, even as children taunted him with slurs such as "boong" and "darkie".

He developed psychological and behavioural problems.

At three years old, he had trichotilliomania, where children pull out their hair.

He was diagnosed as depressed, had a speech defect and chewed his clothing.
After repeated threats to give him away, he was returned to his mother and siblings when he was nine.
It was only then he found out he was an Aborigine.

However, his mother was unable to care for him, and at 10 he was placed into institutional care.
Mr Trevorrow suffered life-long depression and insecurity, and became an alcoholic.
Last year, Justice Gray found the SA Government had acted without legal authority when it placed Mr Trevorrow with a foster family and had been a material cause of his depression.
The state denied it unlawfully removed Mr Trevorrow.

 

[Spaghetti]

It does not matter if a child was worse off or better off, as said you cannot take children away from parents unless they are being abused. It is a crime against humanity to remove children otherwise.

Does anyone care to give one example of success in a country that uses human rights abuses to improve society?

Generally where such abuses occur there are massive social problems, just as what happened here. It seems many do not see cause and affect too clearly.

The evidence that there was NO improvement in the lives of these children or their communities is CLEAR AS DAY. The evidence is that majority were worse off than those who remained in a family unit.

Of course you will have dysfunction where people have been abused as a race. Of course, so now our governments pays and says sorry because it could not be bothered to in the past. All the fault of government from day one until now.

Howard was buying votes and exploiting the racist element of society by saying Australians should not have to say sorry. Australian people never had to say sorry but the government does have even more reason to than that alledged genocidal policy.

It is not white Australia versus black Australia. It is some Australians wanting justice from the government, you know just another basic human right most of us demand.

Why do people want to deny them that right also?

 

[Superfly]

Does anyone care to give one example of success in a country that uses human rights abuses to improve society?



Howard was buying votes and exploiting the racist element of society by saying Australians should not have to say sorry.

If your so serious about human rights.. then you will boycott the China Olympics... right ?... Wonder what all the political prisoners in Chinese cells think of the Olympics....do you care...?

Isn't that what Rudd and his hangers on are doing now ( appealing to the left )... but it's starting to blow up in their faces.... John Howard had it right... its not like the AB community get no help from the government...