Why are we saying 'sorry' to the aboriginals?!

rederob said:

Declare 13 February as the "new Australia Day" and let's move on....

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LOL!
As a point of interest, what do you do for a living? What's your official occupation?

Prospector said:

Agreed, but a Vision will do more to empower people to want to follow through on action. By saying sorry, we at least have some kind of Vision.

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Ah yes...a 'vision'.
Now what sort of a vision would that be, I wonder? Perhaps it's the vision of one thousand million dollars which is clearly at the forefront of many aboriginal minds.
No doubt there are lawyers who are rubbing their hands together in glee. Some of them will be able to set themselves up for life from the legal fees they get out of this lot.
Guess who'll pay? You and me, and other Australians just like us who've done nothing wrong.
What a bloody fiasco it's all turning out to be. And we've only seen the tip of the iceberg so far.

Prospector said:

Helping people is not about giving them handouts. It is about giving back their sense of self esteem, so that they can help themselves. Dont give a man a bag of rice ready to cook - give him the knowledge to grow and harvest the rice himself.

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Now that's the talk I like to hear...perhaps we're on a more similar wave length than I thought!
I fully support the idea of not giving them handouts, but instead, teaching them how to be self sufficient so they can help themselves.
But there's a problem here straight away, isn't there?
Namely, that they mostly shun our efforts to teach them how to take charge of their own affairs. We provide them with education, job training, even jobs, all of which are prerequisites to rising above their present circumstances and taking charge of their lives. Yet the participation rate in these programs is disappointingly low.
We offer them a solution, one that's been proven to work well by the small minority of their race who have embraced it, and consequently have gone on to jobs and careers that have significantly improved their living standards and self esteem.
But the effectiveness of a solution is largely dependent on how enthusiastically it's embraced and implemented.
You can lead a thirsty horse to water, but he'll stay thirsty if he refuses to drink.
You can offer aboriginals viable solutions to their problems, but their problems will continue if they choose not to avail themselves of the solutions.
Therein, I believe, lies one of the main problems in helping aboriginals.....how in the name of creation do you ever get them to show some interest in helping themselves?
There are millions of Australians, myself included, who would like to see aboriginals in better circumstances. But geez...sometimes I feel that we white Australians are just beating our heads up against a brick wall by trying to do anything for these people.

Compensation is not a hand out. I notice people against the payouts are talking heaps about money, get over it. The money would change their world and give them the power they need to go forward. Put yourself in their shoes. The courts of full of people having massively less injurious things happening to them and wanting compensation. Its natural, normal and legal that they expect to get compensation for the wrongs & most terrible things done to them. Crimes compensation is available to anyone who can prove they were a victim of criminal violence and there is massive evidence here.

There will always be racist conservatives who will bleat against it, but it will do no good as there is a natural energy of the population demanding it. The organisation GET UP who set up the sensation candles in Canberra to commemorate sorry are seeing to it that no stone is left unturned towards achieving full reparation, at least as far as the future is concerned as the past cannot be changed, but the future must be. If we can spend billiions on war we can spend some money on peace, reconciliation and development where it is desperately needed.

I am not trying to convince anyone as I can see people have their minds set in concrete here for what reasons only they know. Open your hearts and minds and let money help them. The billions won't make any single individual wealthy, it will do wonders for their community and self esteem. The hand out idea is degrading, its justice not a handout. Do you protest when politicians spens money on war, electioneering and refugee detention centres and other bad decisions. Let them spend money on a good decision for once.

Seaking said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Mansell

I think his name is Michael Mansell..

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Geoffrey Robertson writes:

THE British government has dismissed calls for it to apologise for its role in the removal of thousands of indigenous Australian children from their families.

Britain had been urged by prominent human rights lawyer Geoffrey Robertson to endorse an apology delivered by Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd because English intellectuals had inspired the policy of seizing the children.

But the British government is refusing to follow Rudd's lead in saying sorry to the stolen generations.

"The apology offered in the Australian parliament is a matter for the Australian people and addresses laws and policies of successive Australian parliaments and governments," a British Foreign Office spokeswoman said.

Mr Robertson had argued Britain bore a "heavy historic responsibility" for the stolen generations and needed to apologise.

He said the policy of removing indigenous children from their families was based on the theories of English eugenics intellectuals, who believed aboriginality to be a degenerate trait and should be bred out.

vida said:

Compensation is not a hand out. I notice people against the payouts are talking heaps about money, get over it. The money would change their world and give them the power they need to go forward.

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Could you describe in what way exactly the money would change their world?
What would it be spent on?
How, specifically, is money going to address the problems which we all know so well, e.g. alcoholism, sexual abuse etc?

I'm not being for or against monetary compensation with these questions, but just seeking some sort of objective suggestions as to what can actually be effected with money, as opposed to emotional rhetoric.

Yes, it's good to see a sense of harmony as was evident yesterday, and the emotion was appropriate, but when we start talking about "moving forward"
it's an expression I'm hearing all the time but I really don't know what, specifically, is meant.

One point which puzzles me is that Jenny Macklin (and others) have said we need to get lots more doctors and specialists out to aboriginal remote communities to improve their health outlook. Where are these medical personnel going to come from? I live in a regional city of about 50,000, one of the fastest growing areas in Australia, and we can't get sufficient doctors here to staff our hospital. Or enough GP's to service the population. We can't get dentists either. Even with an acute dental problem you can't see a dentist for at least a week. Ordinary appointments require a six to twelve week wait , and that's when you are an established patient, not someone new seeking a dentist or doctor.
This situation is common throughout Australia. So where are all the specialists in diabetes, kidney disease, addictive disorders etc going to come from to set up clinics in remote parts of Australia?

I'm all for any measure which will restore some dignity and pride to our indigenous people, but think it's time for some actual practical suggestions as to how this is going to happen, and how they are going to be persuaded to participate in such activities.
I

rederob said:

And before that was a masterfully executed strategy that "criminalised" Geoff Clarke and gave cause to eliminate "elected" indigenous representatives and disband ATSIC.

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So all the women who were raped by this excuse for a human being were making it up, huh? And the wasteful misuses of much of the ATSIC funds were just misunderstandings, I suppose?

As for an earlier post by "Koori" on this thread, if he is fair dinkum he will know well and first hand some members of the stolen generation. If he had a sense of brotherhood (or "mob") he would have known the hurt and suffering experienced by a majority of the stolen generation and regularly expressed by indigenous artists and musicians, such a Archie Roach.

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Impossible to believe that an aboriginal person might have a different point of view, isn't it? You can't even let Koori's statement simply stand without challenging his/her right to hold such a view!

vida said:

Geoffrey Robertson writes:

THE British government has dismissed calls for it to apologise for its role in the removal of thousands of indigenous Australian children from their families.

Britain had been urged by prominent human rights lawyer Geoffrey Robertson to endorse an apology delivered by Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd because English intellectuals had inspired the policy of seizing the children.

But the British government is refusing to follow Rudd's lead in saying sorry to the stolen generations.

"The apology offered in the Australian parliament is a matter for the Australian people and addresses laws and policies of successive Australian parliaments and governments," a British Foreign Office spokeswoman said.

Mr Robertson had argued Britain bore a "heavy historic responsibility" for the stolen generations and needed to apologise.

He said the policy of removing indigenous children from their families was based on the theories of English eugenics intellectuals, who believed aboriginality to be a degenerate trait and should be bred out.

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Vida
Interesting thanks
PS I think he's doing a bit of "hypothetical" if he thinks that would lead to anything

Seaking said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Mansell

I think his name is Michael Mansell..

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Yeah, thought it sounded like a racing car driver but couldnt think of the alternative! :

bunyip said:

Ah yes...a 'vision'.
Now what sort of a vision would that be, I wonder? Perhaps it's the vision of one thousand million dollars which is clearly at the forefront of many aboriginal minds.

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No Bunyip, just a vision that institutionally we recognise that some pretty inhumane things have been done to the aboriginals as a cultural group and that it will never happen again.

bunyip said:

We offer them a solution

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In the past we have offered them our solutions; have we ever really listened to them, and considered that they would like some input into what they really need? We built them houses, they burnt them down (in some cases), or trashed them. Of course that is frustrating and a total waste of money. Our health practices don't work well for them; but there are some real turn around stories where the 'rewards' for doing something clearly appealed to them and so they have been taken up - I am thinking the swimming pool/washing faces in one remote location that reduced a childhood eye disease. Washing faces would never have been needed in original society because water was scarce and they used other means of warding off eye disease - but such means were lost to them when they became 'urbanised'. Basically we took away their traditional means of survival when they became, to varying degrees, settled, but didnt provide them with the knowledge/acceptable solutions to manage this transition.

We expected aboriginals to make the leap from nomadic tribal existence, stories of dreamtime of thousands of years in the making, to our westernised and urbanised society within the space of say, 200 years. But we Westerners had taken thousands of years to do the same thing. And we wonder why they falter? Or are not excited about our offer. Would you have transitioned to their society at all if the shoe was on the other foot?

We arrived in our ships, bringing our disease and weapons, alcohol and drugs, and, convicts. We took over their land, killed them in many situations, made them live in houses, expected them to forget their culture, and now, we expect them to be grateful for it? Who are we to say that we do it better than they did?

Jesus....so much for thinking this forum - as opposed to many of the other on the net, might have some intelligent individuals within it. I'm absolutely gobsmacked by the number of blatantly insensitive and borderline racist remarks made by members.

Alas all this really highlights is your total lack of empathy for these other people.....I mean how pathetic that you're like so many other people and stuck on this issue over the 'principle of saying sorry for something I never did' or the risk that someone might sue for compensation......like its coming out of your pocket directly!

If you were really worried about govt spending WHY aren't you out on the streets ever day protesting the collins class subs, f-16 hornets, M1 Abrams purchases and all the other countless ballsups govts make??? On top of the 3 tier system we have that is blatantly ineffecient?

Can people not empathise at all with the injustices these people had to live through? Sure many times it was just 'goodwill gone wrong in hindsight' - but thats acknowledged and in itself doesn't excuse it. And lets not forget that there was almost a policy of genocide a certain points of our history and it was only 40 or so years ago we saw aboriginals as equals enough to allow them to vote!!!

We are not talking about ancient history here.

I grew up in a rural area and alas have many people I know who are blatant racists - though of course they always deny it so strongly. The constant bleeting that white Australians have about Aboringals always getting handouts and extra this and extra that blah blah blah - is really a joke.

I mean who really has the victim mentality here?

And who here would swap the colour of his skin and the relative security of all that comes with that just for some social welfare payments.

Alas many of the aboriginal people are stuck in a horrible vicious circle - and as there has never been a real commitment by any govt to end it it well be a very tough thing to do.

Parents that were bashed, abused and poorly educated perpetuate the same fate on their kids - and on the story goes.

Its fine to sit up in your ivory tower and cast judgements on this but speak to any expert in this field and see if he agrees with your views - I think not.

Australia is not alone in treating its indigenous people very poorly - just look at whats happened in the USA, Canada, Sth America, much of Africa and to a far lesser extent NZ.

Let be honest - 99% of the members of this forum are white, middle aged males - as I am myself - and so I'd think that one could expect some views to be a tad 'biased' and essentially racist.

I know people get their backs up when you roll the R-word out - but for such a supposably progressive society racism just comes out oh so easily for us - and I can't help thinking that if this was the perpetuated on lil white kids as the catholic church adoption of those Brit orphans was a few yrs ago - we'd have had very few voices of dissent when the top power in place over these policies formally said sorry.

I'd just say perhaps people could EMPATHISE - walk a mile or two in the other persons shoes - before getting all wound up and feeling soooooooooo personally hard done by.

I'm heading overseas myself - so can't reply - though I am sure I will be openly slated for saying these things - so don't take my silence as anything but that I'm not around.

Yesterday my wife and I sat in front of the TV at 9 AM and watched the formal apology from Parliament House in Canberra. It was one of the proudest moments in my life. I had to hold back tears listening to some of the disgraceful stories of what happened to our Indigenous people. It was the best speech I have heard in a long time and well over due in my opinion. We must all acknowledge the wrongs of the past, that was the first step. Then we must apologise for them and then move on. I am now an even more proud Australian, this was so long overdue. Thank you to the majority of decent Australians that made this all possible, let's work together.:aus::aus:

From ABC, 14 Feb. 08

ABBOTT DEFENDS NELSON'S 'SORRY' SPEECH

Federal Opposition Indigenous affairs spokesman Tony Abbott is standing by his party's leader, amid criticism of Dr Brendan Nelson's apology speech to the Stolen Generations in Parliament yesterday.
Crowds watching yesterday's apology on large television screens turned their backs in anger while Dr Nelson was speaking.
Two of Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's press secretaries also joined the protest and have since apologised to the Opposition Leader.
Mr Abbott has defended Dr Nelson's speech.
"It was a very difficult topic given the history of the Coalition on this subject, but I thought he handled it magnificently," he said.
"It's immensely to the discredit of Kevin Rudd's staff that they were encouraging people to barrack and disrupt in the Great Hall of the Parliament.
"Kevin Rudd's staff should have known better.
"I suppose for people who have just come straight up from the Aboriginal Tent Embassy who are radicalised activists, I suppose a certain amount of hostility is to be expected.
"But I don't believe anyone who attentively listened to Brendan's speech would have been anything other than very satisfied with it."

ANNUAL CELEBRATION

Meanwhile, the Federal Government's apology to the Stolen Generations has prompted calls for February 13 to be celebrated annually.
Lecturer in Indigenous Studies at the Queensland University of Technology, Victor Hart, says the significance of yesterday's event deserves recognition for generations to come.
He says it should be marked on the national calendar as the day that white Australians acknowledged Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people as a significant population.
"So this is a day for white Australians to celebrate us," he said.
"I think that's what's missing on the calendar - we have our own January 26 Australia Day, but there's no day on the calendar that Aboriginal people are celebrated as part of this nation ... the owners of this nation."

STOP INTERVENTION

While a peak Indigenous group has praised the Commonwealth's apology to the Stolen Generations, they say the intervention in Aboriginal communities must be stopped.
The National Aboriginal Alliance (NAA) says the atrocities of the past will be repeated if the Federal Government continues its intervention in the Northern Territory's Aboriginal communities.
NAA spokesman Les Malezer says the intervention is unfair.
"We've made it quite clear that it's not a case of modifying or altering the intervention, it's a case where it must be stopped," he said.
"It is discriminatory and it must be immediately stopped."

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apology to the Stolen Generations has prompted calls for February 13 to be celebrated annually.

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Kind of sorry forever
And looks that it was THE FIRST STEP in endless dance to please.

Strangely yesterday’s poll results were on MSN site today on 10:22 and if results are representative, appears that not on this issue K07 got the mandate to govern this country of all of us.
But poll is sill open

Do you agree with the text of Kevin Rudd's Sorry apology

Yes 64,132

No 112,906

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Hope my condition doesn’t go past Sorry Fatigue Syndrome to develop Severe Sorry Fatigue Syndrome.

I was thinking, if you admit liability how can you not be liable for compensation, just by saying its not available?

Someone made a comment about NZ - over there land, compensation grants and fishing rights granted total ALOT of money that has been paid over the years. In fact, they have a tribunal set up to manage claims and even have rights to the seabed. (i think the sky claim was denied).

Do you think this will occur in Australia?

13 February, another public holiday?
Yeah, sounds great to me, as long as its another holiday and not exchanging it for one we already have.
Yeah, I already work too hard. I think I would like to only work 3 days a week and get paid for 5, so lets have lots more of them.

Also good to see that the debate is moving to the old Dart. After all they were the ones that found the place. Oops, not quite correct, there were others before wern't there?

I dont think I've said anything racist there have I? I notice how anyone on this forum who happens to disagree with certain others on this forum, are immediately tagged as racists. Easy to say isnt it? Just rolls off the lips without even thinking. How very convenient for you. The new McCarthyism!

And just to repeat myself, I was correct about the endless tiresome debate that would take place on what Nelson said, didnt say, should not have said, and should have said.

And by the way, did you notice that a significant number of those people who turned their backs, etc, on Nelson, did so before he had even finished his first sentence. Really thorough consideration and analysis of his speech, or already made up your mind, eh? Yeah, I think its the latter.

Borderline racist comments...full-on racist.
I suppose that we are on a shares site...where a lot are full of self-interest.
Ever heard of the sayings " don't worry it may never happen" and "take one step at a time".
What if the dog died, and the chooks left home ...what if ,what if,what if?
What if someone got compensation and I didn't?
What if I thought of someone other than myself and my experiences...What if?
What if I stopped denigrating others in the forlorn hope that it might elevate me personally?What if?
Were any of the haters brought up with some code of behaviour in their lives?
What if they could transcend themselves and reach a higher standard in their personal lives. What if?
What if there were any people out there that claimed to live by christian principles and still denigrated others on a racial basis.What if?

the term "racist" is overused. anytime someone points out shortcomings in a particular culture or race or even religion the R word starts flying. news flash - the aborigines aren't perfect. they have serious issues in their community that are their fault and their problem and it's not racist to a) point that out or b) expect that the aboriginal people themselves acknowledge, take responsibility for and fix these problems.

its like people use "racist" as some magic trump card that quells all dissent in cultural discussions (see al-hilaly use it when accosted by the chasers) but its been overused so it doesn't mean anything anymore. yeah i'm a racist, and lefties are communists. good going.

Buddy said:

13 February, another public holiday?
Yeah, sounds great to me, as long as its another holiday and not exchanging it for one we already have..

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I would far rather that date than the 26th January - which has little or no meaning for people in South Australia. South Australia was settled by free people from Germany and elsewhere, not British convicts!

Sorry to tell you this fellas, but sorry has now been said.
If you don't know why then you weren't listening to either Rudd or Nelson.
How about we move on and try to fix things.

As for making it a public holiday. Probably not. Who knows - it's not that silly.
It is almost certainly going to go down as a momentous occasion. And Rudd's speech one of the best ever.

Maybe we should start a thread on the shortcomings of the white European culture in Australia.
However,as much as you do not like it,of course this thread is based on race...and it gives people a chance to really expose themselves.
Some posts are not racist...however others add nothing to the thread...only more racial denigration.Like it or not!

From ABC 14 Feb. 08
INTERVENTION IS STOLEN GENS 2: INDIGENOUS GROUP

A day after the Commonwealth's apology to the Stolen Generations, the National Aboriginal Alliance is warning that the atrocities of the past will be repeated if Northern Territory intervention continues.
The alliance is calling for the intervention to be stopped altogether. The group's Les Malezer says a new approach is needed as the current one is unfair.
"We've made it quite clear that it's not a case of modifying or altering the intervention, it's a case where it must be stopped. It is discriminatory and it must be immediately stopped.
"You don't want to be a member of the Stolen Generation and then find that your children are being treated the same way as you were in the past."
Meanwhile, representatives from Northern Territory Aboriginal communities say their advice on how to improve aspects of the intervention has been well recieved in Canberra.
The group met with Territory Senator Trish Crossin, Democrats leader Lyn Allison and the opposition's Indigenous affairs spokesman Tony Abbott.
A spokeswoman for the Aboriginal group Barbara Shaw says she raised her concerns about aspects of the intervention.
"I reckon they will listen because some of them are mothers, and some are grandmothers. And they are going to feel the effect of what we are telling them. They will feel the effects of what we're saying to them."

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Maybe we do not have all the information on why then, but we have ample information on why now, so in my humble opinion statement like

INTERVENTION IS STOLEN GENS 2: INDIGENOUS GROUP

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is at least not correct.


But wait, that's not all

From ABC 14 Feb. 08
RUDD NEEDS TO 'RECOGNISE ABORIGINAL SOVEREIGNTY'

Representatives of the Aboriginal Tent Embassy in Canberra say yesterday's apology will mean little if the Government fails to recognise Aboriginal sovereignty.
The Government says there has been no change in its position on the embassy and it will continue to negotiate the future of the site.
Tent Embassy spokeswoman Isabelle Coe says while the apology is a start, the next step is signing a treaty recognising Aboriginal sovereignty.
"I've been waiting for 36 years for Aboriginal sovereignty to be recognised," she said.
"I don't think that Kevin Rudd is going to recognise our sovereignty straight away but hopefully down the track he will."

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Looks like spring after Frist Step.