What can we learn from Anzac day?

[2020hindsight]

"The troops were intended to occupy Constantinople - after the Navy had wiped out any opposition"

let's not forget that the Australian and New Zealand Armies that went to Anzac were 100% volunteers , and were admired whereever they went for their incredible mateship, courage, and humour. The Brits were in awe of em.

Winnie screwed up. The man of the Century for his efforts in WWII... - but at Anzac, he simply screwed up.
http://www.diggerhistory2.info/graveyards/pages/history/letter.htm

My dear Kitchener,
I have now heard from Carden that he considers it will take him 14 days on which firing is practicable to enter the Sea of Marmora, counting from the 2nd of March. Of course bad weather would prolong, and a collapse of the Turkish resistance at the later forts would shorten this period. But it seems to me we ought now to fix a date for the military concentration so that the arrival of troops can be timed to fit in with the normal fruition of the naval operation.

The transports for the 30,000 troops from Egypt, less those already taken to Lemnos, will all have arrived at Alexandria between the 8th and the 15th, that is to say the troops could be landed at Bulair or, alternatively, if practicable, taken through the Straits to Constantinople about the 18th instant.

By the same date the transports conveying the 8,000 men of the Naval Division from England could also reach the same points. In addition there are, I understand, in Lemnos 4,000 Australians and 2,000 Marines of the Royal Naval Division. Therefore I suggest for your consideration, and for the proper co-ordination of naval and military policy, that we fix in our own minds the 20th March as the date on which 40,000 British troops will certainly be available for land operations on Turkish soil.

To make sure of this date, it will perhaps be better to give all orders as for the 17th or 18th; we should then have a little in hand. I think the French should be given this date (20th) as their point, and should rendezvous at Lemnos not later than the 16th. We should also inform the Russians and the Greeks, and ask them what dates they can work to (assuming they are coming). It is necessary for me to know what your views and plans are in these matters.

I feel it my duty also to represent the strong feeling we have at the Admiralty that there should be placed at the head of this army so variously composed, a general officer of high rank and reputation, who has held important commands in war. I heard yesterday with very great pleasure you mentioned the name of Sir Ian Hamilton as the officer you had designated for the main command in this theatre. Certainly no choice could be more agreeable to the Admiralty and to the Navy; but I would venture to press upon you the desirability of this officer being on the spot as soon as possible, in order that he may concert with the Admiral on the really critical and decisive operations which may be required at the very outset.
I wish to make it clear that the naval operations in the Dardanelles cannot be delayed for troop movements, as we must get into the Marmora as soon as possible in the normal course.

It reads like invites to an international birthday party

http://www.diggerhistory2.info/graveyards/ It is hard to find a single battle or campaign that has had such a widespread significant social as well as military effect as that of the (relatively small) Gallipoli Campaign.
If fact, it's social effects were more long lasting and greater than it's military ones.

It "pushed" Australian and New Zealand into a new found national pride, it was one of the markers of the end of "gun boat diplomacy" and it helped destroy the Ottoman & British Empires. It also helped create the "new" Turkey.

Timeline:- http://www.diggerhistory2.info/graveyards/pages/history/timeline.htm

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.diggerhistory2.info/graveyards/

Australia has only ever officially recognised (with a memorial on Anzac Avenue Canberra ACT) one enemy commander. It is Mustafa Kemal (Atatürk). New Zealand did the same. Atatürk NZ. These are probably the only memorials in the world to an enemy commander.

Note that the Turks agreed to rename the cove Anzac Cove.

 

[billhill]

I think what ANZAC day tells me is that just as our forefathers made sacrifices to protect the soverignty and prosperity of this nation we should all be expected to do the same when the need arises. This nation is greater then any single person and we should kiss the ground everyday for the fortunate lives we live. In reality we really are the lucky country.

Lest we Forget

 

[2020hindsight]

Bill, fantastic site this one - in keeping with your post, and also the Turkish (and Kiwi) points of view. Some fantastic quotes, and done with real reverence - I doubt I've ever seen such a website fantastic.

Ambassador Okandan says: "There are hardly any wars which the past belligerent parties jointly commemorate. Gallipoli serves as a message of peace to the whole world." There, at least, is something to celebrate.

 

[wayneL]

This one always gets me...

"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives.. you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours.. You the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears. Your sons are now living in our bosom and are in peace. Having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well"
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

 

[2020hindsight]

I for one never realised the French were there (in significant numbers) - certainly never realised more French were killed than Aussies - excuse moi , mes amies francais (francais'?) (if that's wrong blame the missus lol - I dont speak french)

Aussies 7594 killed (although Aust war memorial says 8709 killed)
Kiwis 2431 killed
Turkish 66,000 killed
British 43,000 killed
French 8,000 killed

 

[constable]

What can we learn from ANZAC day? .............we dont know how good we've got it.
I see my 2 year old and protect him like the most precious thing on earth, but i will never forget the sacrifices thousands of men and women made to make this the country that he is free to grow up in ....the lucky country.

Lest we forget.

 

[2020hindsight]

This one always gets me...

"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives.. you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours.. You the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears. Your sons are now living in our bosom and are in peace. Having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well"
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

thanks Wayne - I was trying to find that one

 

[Sean K]

Couple of photos I took at Gallipoli a few years ago here:

http://travellintrader.blogspot.com/

The one with the quote from Ataturk brought tears to my eyes. Hope you have all read it before.

 

[Sean K]

thanks Wayne - I was trying to find that one

You guys beat me to it. Well, this is where it actually is.

 

[Stan 101]

I've learnt never to leave my Anzac biscuits in the same pantry as my Turkish delights at this time of year because you can be sure the English muffins won't be of any help if trouble breaks out..

But seriously, Anzac day is the only thing that pulls on my otherwise nonexistant, patriotic heart strings. Remembering as a child playing bugle during a dawn service at a local bowls club and seeing the weathered and time warn faces of experience reminisce on the good times and the bad. The ghosts of old friends still lingering beside them as they bring their early morning rum to their lips. Those young men and women gave up their innocence, their dreams and futures for us; rightly or wrongly.

So what can we learn? There will always be selfless people in this world and there will always be selfish people in this world, I guess.
It probably fair to say that humans are not always humanitiarians, especially when it comes to greed.
Maybe we should all try to capture the emotions and thought processors of what our Anzacs have had to endure as they reconciled their helplessness, their hate, fear, and anger of the enemy into one of forgiveness and acceptance.

cheers,

 

[bvbfan]

I am more proud of ANZAC day than any other day is this country.

It may not mean much for me to say this but as a person who was born outside of Australia I feel this day is more important than Australia Day or any other day.

Oh and I do like the ANZAC day battle on the MCG too...go PIES ;P

 

[Sean K]

Oh and I do like the ANZAC day battle on the MCG too...go PIES ;P

Go Dons!!! See you there BVB.

 

[constable]

Go Dons!!! See you there BVB.

Essendon suck! But they always give me the fond memory of the pies whipping their butts in the first afl grandfinal.
go pies!!



(sorry 2020 little off track)

 

[greggy]

For me, its a day of remembering the sacrifice of all the military personnel who have died fighting for this great nation and also for thanking those who've served us. Working for the Defence Department, I naturally attend the Dawn Service, watch the Parade and then have the odd drink at the pub. Afternoon, off to the footy to see the Pies thrash the Bombers at the MCG.

 

[Julia]

I've learnt never to leave my Anzac biscuits in the same pantry as my Turkish delights at this time of year because you can be sure the English muffins won't be of any help if trouble breaks out..

But seriously, Anzac day is the only thing that pulls on my otherwise nonexistant, patriotic heart strings. Remembering as a child playing bugle during a dawn service at a local bowls club and seeing the weathered and time warn faces of experience reminisce on the good times and the bad. The ghosts of old friends still lingering beside them as they bring their early morning rum to their lips. Those young men and women gave up their innocence, their dreams and futures for us; rightly or wrongly.

So what can we learn? There will always be selfless people in this world and there will always be selfish people in this world, I guess.
It probably fair to say that humans are not always humanitiarians, especially when it comes to greed.
Maybe we should all try to capture the emotions and thought processors of what our Anzacs have had to endure as they reconciled their helplessness, their hate, fear, and anger of the enemy into one of forgiveness and acceptance.

cheers,

Great post, Stan 101.

As a schoolgirl we didn't have Anzac Day as a school holiday. Instead we went to school as usual and spent the day knitting socks/scarves etc for the returned soldiers. The teachers participated in this, and spent the time talking about the war, the sacrifices made for us etc. It was a lesson I never forgot and every Anzac Day remember sitting in those classrooms trying to make what was probably an unwearable item for the old soldiers.

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDgq5J6aaZQ last post

Herewith the Discovery channel version , - if poss watch the 5th in the series ( only 6.5 minutes) including the bit that corrects the movie "Gallipoli " about the attack at the Neck - the order was made by an Aussie, not a Pom, and he went on to become a Brig Gen.
It also shows the entire objective was nonsensical - the view from the local mountain, Achi Baba, their objective for first day , - in fact never reached after 8 months (see first photo) - did not even cover the area of the Narrows (Dardanelles) that they were supposed to be able to fire on and control. (second photo). Third photo I believe (may be wrong) is Ataturk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybc0WEhUW8U&mode=related&search= Battlefield Detectives - The Gallipoli Catastrophe 1 of 5 (10 mins)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIPV7Haa7rU&mode=related&search= Battlefield Detectives - The Gallipoli Catastrophe 2 of 5 (10 mins)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvkEP5RozAE&mode=related&search= Battlefield Detectives - The Gallipoli Catastrophe 3 of 5 (10 mins)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWbx4X68epw&mode=related&search= Battlefield Detectives - The Gallipoli Catastrophe 4 of 5 (10 mins)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6J60dNJ1Lk&mode=related&search= Battlefield Detectives - The Gallipoli Catastrophe 5 of 5 (6.5 mins)

Conclusion is that no amount of courage or leadership could ever have achieved anything at Anzac. PS Churchill resigned when they pulled out of Anzac 8 months (I think) after landing.

The last two photos match the footage talking about the Neck (as per the movie, Gallipoli) - 300 men lost in 15 mins = 1 per 3 seconds.

 

[2020hindsight]

Here are some comments about Ataturk - and also a theory of how he was eventually beaten (see below, TE Lawrence involvement maybe?) ( Ataturk was otherwise known as Mustafa Kemal - lol he wanted to be called "Oz" after Gallipoli, but they gave him "Ataturk"....)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._E._Lawrence

With the passage of surname law on November 24, 1934, he asked to acquire the surname "Oz", but presented by the Turkish National Assembly with the surname "Atatürk" (meaning "Father Turk" or "Ancestor Turk"), hence Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.[1] He is revered by the people of Turkey as the Father of the Nation. .....

On 25 April 1915 (Anzac Cove), he met the enemy in the hills, held them, and retook the high ground. Largely owing to him and his command, the Australian and New Zealand forces were contained and the landing force failed to reach its objectives.[2] Mustafa Kemal said to his troops: I don’t order you to attack, I order you to die. In the time it takes us to die, other troops and commanders can come and take our places.[2]....

Mustafa Kemal became the outstanding front-line commander and gained much respect from his former enemies for his chivalry in victory. The Mustafa Kemal Atatürk Memorial has an honoured place on ANZAC Parade in Canberra, Australia. Mustafa Kemal's commemorating speech on the loss of thousands of Turkish and Anzac soldiers in Gallipoli stays at Anzac Cove.

After Gallipoli Ataturk goes to Palestine - and is "beaten" (at least he runs out of indians who are prepared to take on the Arabs). "We are like a cotton thread drawn across (the English) path" etc

Sinai and Palestine Campaign, 1917
Sinai and Palestine Campaign in 1918, which Mustafa Kemal was commanding 7th Army from Nablus.His command of the 2nd Army was cut short, as he was transferred to Sinai and Palestine Campaign. He was assigned to the 7th Army. After a short visit to the 7th Army HQ, he returned to Istanbul on October 7. He joined the crown prince Mehmed Vahdettin on a visit to Germany. During this trip he fell ill and stayed in Vienna for medical treatment.

He returned to Aleppo on August 28, 1918 and resumed the command of the 7th Army. His headquarters were in Nablus Palestine. He was under Liman von Sanders, whose group headquarters were in Nazareth. Mustafa Kemal studied Syria thoroughly once again and visited the front line. His conclusion was that Syria was in a pitiable state (the 1915-1917 period had left 500,000 Syrian casualties to famine.)[9] There was no Ottoman civil governor or commander. There was an abundance of English propaganda and English secret agents were everywhere. The people hated the government and looked forward to the arrival of the English as soon as possible. The enemy was stronger than his forces were in men and equipment. He said "We are like a cotton thread drawn across his path."[10]

Mustafa Kemal had Arab Revolt in his hand, which was organized by Great Britain. Liman von Sanders lost the Battle of Megiddo leaving 75,000 POW behind just on the first day. Now, Allenby and Mustafa Kemal's 7th Army were face to face. Mustafa Kemal retreated towards Jordan. In a couple of days, the total size of the deserters reached to 300,000.[11] Mustafa Kemal's war was changed drastically from fighting against allies to fighting against disintegration. After a furious telegram to Sultan, "if a fool like Enver Pasha had not been the director-general of operations, if a commander like Ahmet Cemal Pasha — who abandoned the army — were not at the head of military force, if above them we did not have a group headquarter leader like (Liman von Sanders) that lost the control within the first day of the battle... Now there is nothing left to do but to make peace

Now here's that theory (of mine) ... that he ended up in Palestine, (no question) , and was beaten (arguably) by the likes of Lawrence of Arabia. (unproven that he even met Lawrence, but it seems to fit the jigsaw at first glance, IMO)...

So if that is correct, then a man who is pretty much a lone ranger in white robes, whose only strength is the fact that he trusts Arabs / Palestinians / etc, and in turn is worshipped by them ... that this man wins in the end over the mighty Ataturk, when the combined Anzacs ,poms and French couldn't at Gallipopli ? (just a theory)

PS as that discovery channel youtube concluded - it was as much the terrain as anything that beat the Anzacs at Gallipoli. - No amount of courage or leadership could have won there .

PPS "T. E. Lawrence was the second of five illegitimate sons ?? (lol) of Sir Thomas Robert Tighe Chapman, Bt., an Anglo-Irish landowner. Lawrence's mother had originally been hired to care for Chapman's four daughters by his ex-wife, whom he left because she had a "religious madness" and made his life impossible."
- interesting origins there Lawrence sounds like the classic dysfunctional family they have on the TV sitcoms, lol.

 

[2020hindsight]

Now here's that theory (of mine) ... that he ended up in Palestine, (no question) , and was beaten (arguably) by the likes of Lawrence of Arabia. .....
a man who is pretty much a lone ranger in white robes, whose only strength is the fact that he trusts Arabs / Palestinians / etc, and in turn is worshipped by them ... that this man wins in the end over the mighty Ataturk, when (bullets failed)

I guess the point I was trying to make here was that, when it comes to the old quote WHAM BAM THANK YOU etc. ..

the WHAM (Winning the hearts and minds)
is more important than the BAM (bullets and missiles)

PS Current trends in world wide "diplomatic leverage" seem to prefer
THANKs (They have a nuke koming soon).

 

[noirua]

I was going to write something, perhaps I thought it was wise, but then, if something is so terrible as this I suddenly feel numb and realise nothing really fits, tears fill my eyes and the screen looks blurred.