What can we learn from Anzac day?

[2020hindsight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpRuKyksxks GOODNIGHT SAIGON Billy Joel

GOODNIGHT SAIGON Billy Joel
We met as soul mates On parris island
We left as inmates From an asylum
And we were sharp As sharp as knives
And we were so gung ho To lay down our lives
We came in spastic Like tameless horses
We left in plastic As numbered corpses
And we learned fast To travel light
Our arms were heavy But our bellies were tight
We had no home front We had no soft soap
They sent us playboy They gave us bob hope
We dug in deep And shot on sight
And prayed to jesus christ With all our might
We had no cameras To shoot the landscape
We passed the hash pipe And played our doors tapes
And it was dark So dark at night
And we held on to each other Like brother to brother
We promised our mothers wed write
And we would all go down together We said wed all go down together Yes we would all go down together
Remember charlie Remember baker
They left their childhood On every acre
And who was wrong? And who was right?
It didnt matter in the thick of the fight We held the day
In the palm Of our hand
They ruled the night And the night
Seemed to last as long as six weeks On parris island
We held the coastline They held the highlands
And they were sharp As sharp as knives
They heard the hum of our motors They counted the rotors
And waited for us to arrive
And we would all go down together We said wed all go down together Yes we would all go down together

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYJN-_veJ80 I was only nineteen by redgum is a classic aussie war song

I WAS ONLY NINETEEN
Mum and Dad and Denny saw the passing out parade at Puckapunyal
(1t was long march from cadets).
The sixth battalion was the next to tour and It was me who drew the card.
We did Canungra and Shoalwater before we left.

Chorus I:
And Townsville lined the footpath as we marched down to the quay.
This clipping from the paper shows us young and strong and clean.
And there's me in my slouch hat with my SLR and greens.
God help me, I was only nineteen.

From Vung Tau riding Chinooks to the dust at Nui Dat,
I'd been in and out of choppers now for months.
But we made our tents a home. V.B. and pinups on the lockers,
And an Asian orange sunset through the scrub.

Chorus 2:
And can you tell me, doctor, why I still can't get to sleep?
And night time's just a jungle dark and a barking M.16?
And what's this rash that comes and goes, can you tell me what it means?
God help me, I was only nineteen.

A four week operation, when each step can mean your last one
On two legs: it was a war within yourself.
But you wouldn't let your mates down 'til they had you dusted off,
So you closed your eyes and thought about something else.

Chorus 3:
Then someone yelled out "Contact"', and the bloke behind me swore.
We hooked in there for hours, then a God almighty roar.
Frankie kicked a mine the day that mankind kicked the moon.
God help me, he was going home in June.

1 can still see Frankie, drinking tinnies in the Grand Hotel
On a thirty-six hour rec. leave in Vung Tau.
And I can still hear Frankie, lying screaming in the jungle.
'Till the morphine came and killed the bloody row

Chorus 4:
And the Anzac legends didn't mention mud and blood and tears.
And stories that my father told me never seemed quite real
I caught some pieces In my back that I didn't even feel.
God help me, I was only nineteen.

Chorus 5:
And can you tell me, doctor, why I still can't get to sleep?
And why the Channel Seven chopper chills me to my feet?
And what's this rash that comes and goes, can you tell me what it means?
God help me, I was only nineteen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbUOY0Rk1tA&mode=related&search= The Green Fields Of France by Dropkick Murphys
(beware this one has pretty gruesome photos )

 

[2020hindsight]

I was only 19 (top song, so also billy joel's goodnight saigon imo)
I notice these clues to "understanding the lyrics " - just in case anyone doesn't know what a VB is for instance

This song was written in the 70's, by a bloke called John Schuman and performed by him in a band called "Redgum". It became a national hit espcecially among Veterans almost imediately. It is still performed today whenever Vietnam Vets get together for a concert. Royalties from sales were donated to the Vietnam Veterans Association of Australia.
Just a few things that may help you understand the lyrics better.
Puckapunyal was a recruit training center and Cunungra is a Jungle Warfare training center. Shoalwater was a place that the Army used for Military excercises. The SLR was the personal weapon mostly used in Vietnam. Vung Tau & Nui Dat were Aussie bases in Vietnam. V.B. is Victorian Bitter a very popular Aussie beer. Anzac is the acronym for the Australian & New Zealand Army Corps

 

[2020hindsight]

there are two sides to every story -
or are there ???? (i.e. maybe just the same story in different languages)
(suggest you only need 30 secs of each to get the ghist - she aint that good a singer - unless of course you are over 85 lol)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc9KHpi6hDc Marlene Dietrich "where have all the flowers gone"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPSmrb82ocM&mode=related&search= Marlene Dietrich : Sag Mir Wo Die Blumen Sind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYii6nxhvUk PPM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from previous quote

Pete Seegar : " way back in 1955, I came across three lines out of a famous book:-

"where are the flowers? the girls have plucked them
where are the girls? they are all married
where are the men? they're all in the army"

I did not REALISE when I put the song together, an ancient ancient question was phrased so poetically"

WHERE HAVE ALL THE FLOWERS GONE
words and music by Pete Seeger
performed by Pete Seeger and Tao Rodriguez-Seeger

Where have all the flowers gone? Long time passing
Where have all the flowers gone? Long time ago
Where have all the flowers gone? Girls have picked them every one
When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young girls gone? Long time passing
Where have all the young girls gone? Long time ago
Where have all the young girls gone? Taken husbands every one
When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young men gone? Long time passing
Where have all the young men gone? Long time ago
Where have all the young men gone? Gone for soldiers every one
When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

Where have all the soldiers gone? Long time passing
Where have all the soldiers gone? Long time ago
Where have all the soldiers gone? Gone to graveyards every one
When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

Where have all the graveyards gone? Long time passing
Where have all the graveyards gone? Long time ago
Where have all the graveyards gone? Covered with flowers every one
When will we ever learn? When will we ever learn?

 

[wayneL]

I was only 19 (top song, so also billy joel's goodnight saigon imo)
I notice these clues to "understanding the lyrics " - just in case anyone doesn't know what a VB is for instance

One of my all time favourites.

...and a very interesting thread. Thanks.

 

[2020hindsight]

One of my all time favourites.

...and a very interesting thread. Thanks.

wayne (whilst I suspect you were referring to red gum , - here's more on flowers ...)
here's PPM with Pete Seagar himself - including discussion of when he wrote this one "the genesis of the song" - he comes in about 3m 40s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLe9pJSRas0

 

[Sean K]

I was only 19 (top song, so also billy joel's goodnight saigon imo)
I notice these clues to "understanding the lyrics " - just in case anyone doesn't know what a VB is for instance

Puckapunyal was a recruit training center and Cunungra is a Jungle Warfare training center. Shoalwater was a place that the Army used for Military excercises. The SLR was the personal weapon mostly used in Vietnam. Vung Tau & Nui Dat were Aussie bases in Vietnam. V.B. is Victorian Bitter a very popular Aussie beer. Anzac is the acronym for the Australian & New Zealand Army Corps

Hate Pucka (too hard to dig in), Cunungra is OK cause the Gold Coast is down the road, Shoalwater Bay is ordinary unless you get time to go to GKI, the Steyr is more accurate than than the SLR, but the SLR is better for drill, VB? , and if you don't know what ANZAC stands for! Please!

Thanks for the thread 2020.

 

[wayneL]

Hate Pucka (too hard to dig in), Cunungra is OK cause the Gold Coast is down the road, Shoalwater Bay is ordinary unless you get time to go to GKI, the Steyr is more accurate than than the SLR, but the SLR is better for drill, VB? , and if you don't know what ANZAC stands for! Please!

Thanks for the thread 2020.

I wonder how many young folk know what it means?

...and I wonder how many understand why they fought (as we sit by and let government progressively strip it away)

 

[2020hindsight]

I wonder how many young folk know what it means? ...and I wonder how many understand why they fought (as we sit by and let government progressively strip it away)

- no argument from me wayne .

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15524/15524.txt
a few of CJ Dennis's poems ... written after WWI of course
Interesting to compare the hero's reception that the WWI veterans received to the Vietnam boys.

THE BOYS OUT THERE
......
It's that old stock; an', more than that,
It's Bill an' Jim an' ev'ry son
Gettin' three good meat meals a day
An' 'eaps uv chance to go an' play
Out in the bonzer sun.
It's partly that; but, don't forget,
When it's all said, there's somethin' yet.

There's somethin' yet; an' there I'm beat.
Crowds uv these lads I've known, but then,
They 'ave got somethin' from this war,
Somethin' they never 'ad before,
That makes 'en better men.
Better? There's no word I can get
To name it right. There's somethin' yet.

We 'ear a lot about reward;
We praise, an' sling the cheers about;
But there was debts we can't repay
Piled up on us one single day--
When that first list come out.
There ain't no way to pay that debt.
Do wot we can--there's somethin' yet.

A SQUARE DEAL
......
"I'm thinkin' things," sez Digger Smith.
"I'm thinkin' big an' fine
Uv Life an' Love an' all the rest,
An' wot is right an' wot is best,
An' 'ow much will be mine.
Not that I'm wantin' overmuch
Some work, some play, an' food an' such."

"See 'ere," I sez. "You 'ark to me.
I've done some thinkin' too.
An' this 'ere land, for wot yeh did,
Owes some few million solid quid
To fightin' blokes like you.
So don't be too dam modest or
Yeh'll git less than yeh're lookin' for."

"Money?" sez Digger. "Loot?" sez 'e
"Aw, give that talk a rest!
I'm sick uv it. I didn't say
That I was thinkin' all uv pay,
But wot was right an' best.
An' that ain't in the crazy game
Uv grabbin' wealth an' chasin' fame.

"Do you think us blokes Over There,
When things was goin' strong,
Was keepin' ledgers day be day
An' reck'nin' wot the crowd would pay?
Pull off! Yeh got it wrong.
Do you think all the boys gone West
Wants great swank 'ead-stones on their chest?

"You chaps at 'ome 'as small ideer
Uv wot we think an' feel.
We done our bit an' seen it thro',
An' all that we are askin' you
Is jist a fair, square deal.
We want this land we battled for
To settle up--an' somethin' more.

"We want the land we battled for
To be a land worth while.
We're sick uv greed, an' 'ate, an' strife,
An' all the mess that's made uv life." . . .
'E stopped a bit to smile.
"I got these thoughts Out There becos
We learnt wot mateship reely was."
..........

 

[2020hindsight]

If anyone is interested, the National Archives have opened up files from WWI - so you can research old rels who were there.

but be warned, a lot of people checking it out, (plus newspapers leading into Anzac Day) and might be better to check it our after that.

http://naa12.naa.gov.au

 

[2020hindsight]

I'm gonna bore you folks, and repost something from the poetry thread

Here's a few lines I scribbled about Bourke, an imaginary old digger, and an imaginary flood (been a long time since they had one of those). In reality its more about the spirit of the diggers that is dying with them. That attitude is probably not relevant today - but cripes I love those diggers.

WHEN DUTY MEETS FLOOD
An order came through on the phone to young Jimmy,
Some Digger up Darling way - just back of Bourke -
"And hurry son, pack it and send it by sundown,
Without it I'm sunk 'cause the pump just won't work."

"It fits on the handle, the one that you push on,
The pulling side's perfect - I don't need the kit !
There's no sense in wasting 'cause wanting can follow,
The rest of it's pristine - I just need one bit"

"The price is outrageous - what, two dollars fifty! -
But Noah's on standby, my back's to the wall -
I think it's the model before the Big Mopper,
Before World War 1, son - when duty was all."

Now, floods had been raging for nigh on a fortnight,
The whole of the Darling was deeply immersed,
But Jimmy decided he'd do as was bidden -
What Diggers would do if the shoes were reversed.

He donned an ole trenchcoat and Wellies and waders,
He fitted his scooter with waterwings too,
Like James Bond's intrepid amphibious duckling,
He set off through rain that was falling like stew.

He ploughed through the creeks that were running a banker,
He raced along cliffedges, floods on all sides.
He dodged the great deluge of cascading debris,
He island-hopped treetrunks mid waterfall rides.

And after a night of incredible courage
And hundreds of miles through the torrents and churn,
Eureka - he shook the old hand of the Digger,
And ooohh - what a grin he received in return.

"Now sit with me son while I demonstrate will power
learnt pumping trenches at each bugle call."
....
He fitted the part, and he pumped till the flood
receded by inches, then metres, then mud,
with blisters on blisters he finally stud -
and smiled through loose dentures like bull chewing cud,
....
"A breeze after Flanders - no bullets no blood -
But that was when duty was all."

PS Just a thought.
I wonder if there was another (justifiable) call to arms, what would be the percentage response from the cities, and what would be the percentage response from the bush?

.....
"Do you think us blokes Over There,
When things was goin' strong,
Was keepin' ledgers day be day
An' reck'nin' wot the crowd would pay?
Pull off! Yeh got it wrong.
Do you think all the boys gone West
Wants great swank 'ead-stones on their chest?

"You chaps at 'ome 'as small ideer
Uv wot we think an' feel.
We done our bit an' seen it thro',
An' all that we are askin' you
Is jist a fair, square deal.
We want this land we battled for
To settle up--an' somethin' more....

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eewXEOfuIsQ&mode=related&search= The Somme
(compilation of video clips from the battle of the somme. It contains footage of British, Irish, Canadian and French troops from signing up, to the aftermath.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52J5_Es8O60&NR=1 The Battle of the Somme film

 

[Wysiwyg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eewXEOfuIsQ&mode=related&search= The Somme
(compilation of video clips from the battle of the somme. It contains footage of British, Irish, Canadian and French troops from signing up, to the aftermath.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52J5_Es8O60&NR=1 The Battle of the Somme film

You do very good at bringing home the ANZAC story 2020h.Though the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps. came to name in ww1 it is from that moment on that a permanent `connection` has been formed with the "digger" and the defence of our friends and nation.My grand pa served from 1941-1945 in Australia and New Guinea and achieved corporal status.There are many kin who are in similar situation and feel the sorrow of loss and the happiness of victory.`Tis something not to be glorified in my opinion but remembered for the committment of a young nation in defence of life.

Thankyou 2020.

 

[2020hindsight]

There are many kin who are in similar situation and feel the sorrow of loss and the happiness of victory.`Tis something not to be glorified in my opinion but remembered for the committment of a young nation in defence of life.

thanks wysiwyg ... the missus has several rels who were at Gallipoli... researching them makes fascinating reading. And more recent, I remember blokes coming back from 'Nam with the most incredible acne (seen to be believed). Agent Orange was no joke. As they say these days, when you tour 'Nam, you try to visit the countryside, without visiting too much of the herbicide

just playing with words here (thinking of Gallipoli, or maybe Flanders) ... maybe ...

"tis something to be horrified , yet glorified as well
those friends that were dismembered, I'll remember 'fore they fell
where victory and lunacy and courage raw and heart
and manliness and madness were but half an inch apart.

there's something to be honoured where your innards might rebel
when cannon fire and murder daily follow fall of shell
and faces blank in no man's land, look back towards their mates
who died out there some yesterday - and forecast future fates."

(poor bugas)

 

[Wysiwyg]

`Tis something not to be glorified in my opinion but remembered for the committment of a young nation in defence of life.
Thankyou 2020.

My apologies...too late to edit and it will read as `young nations in defence of life`.


And to put a spin on a movie quote...`what we do in life need NOT echo through eternity`

 

[2020hindsight]

WAR – DID I HEAR YOU RIGHT THERE SONNY?.

Did I hear you right there sonny, you were saying as we marched
where is Martin Place’s dunny? pass the parchment? you were parched?
sorry son I’m hard of hearing, its my eardrums blown away,
into fear? or interfering?, in some war zone miles away.

Bloocher boots are great for marching don’t you think, or praps you don’t
hey they work ok on asphalt, - when you get in mud they won't
padre's prayers to help anoint us so we'd face some foe annoyed,
boys were all we were back then, my boy, with crazed young hopes were buoyed.

Mortified or mortar fired? canonised or blown apart?
bain of mankind , bayonets? have a heart or had a heart?
overhead heat seeking missiles ? missus back home seeking warm?
war the ugly side of humans ? peace the humane side of storm?

pass a round for Betsy here? naval guns or navel wound?
pass a round of Anzac beer? laughing mates or trigger tuned?
missile point or missed the point? nuclear future - no clear path?
Martha likes to sweep the joint? - who will sweep up "aftermath?"

...........
Tis something to be horrified , yet glorified as well
those friends that were dismembered, I'll remember 'fore they fell
where victory and lunacy and courage raw and heart
and manliness and madness were but half an inch apart.

there's something to be honoured where your innards might rebel
when cannon fire and murder daily follow fall of shell
and faces blank in no man's land, look back towards their mates
who died out there some yesterday - and forecast future fates.

............
In the end my boy you ask yourself this little question here (while)
we share this Anzac medal called "a blood-oath promised beer"
this question's all important son, please try to understand...

is the aussie in the warzone? or the warzone in the man?

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1900752.htm Rare Gallipoli footage uncovered

Interesting that this is the same Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett that I found on the "diggers' website" , post #27 , who was so complimentary about Anzac soldiers I was trying to find the film on the web , but no joy as yet , maybe after Anzac day I guess.

The Australian War Memorial has found one minute of rare footage taken at Gallipoli in 1915.

The film features the only known pictures of Anzac Cove on the Gallipoli Peninsula, and British soldiers gathering at Suvla Bay.

It is believed to have been filmed by British war correspondent Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett.

Stephanie Boyle from the War Memorial says the film was discovered in an obscure documentary purchased by the Memorial in 1938.

"It was a slow and dawning realisation and something you don't want to believe at first because it's quite incredible to find something new when you thought that's it, we have all of the Gallipoli footage there is," she said.

"So to find more is completely unexpected. Like finding somebody alive who you thought had passed away."

PS I guess I could have slipped another verse in back there, words of a hypothetical old digger (or recent young digger I guess).

was it all about the battlements, or what the battle meant?
were we simply sheep or cattle, (yet both hell and heaven sent )
was it valid or invalid, now that invalids are left
or the stuff of folklore ballad, and the law of folk bereft.

In the end my boy you ask yourself this little question here
(while) we share this Anzac medal called "a blood-oath promised beer"
this question's all important son, please try to understand...
is the aussie in the warzone? or the warzone in the man?

 

[Sean K]

You marching 2020?

I'll be amongst 4 Bde in Melbourne heading to the Shrine.

 

[2020hindsight]

You marching 2020?
I'll be amongst 4 Bde in Melbourne heading to the Shrine.

I'm not, kennas - I never left Aus shores - just another nasho called up towards the end of the Vietnam days
I try to get to the dawn service in Sydney. Good luck to you though.

My dad was in Darwin during the war, (Air Force) - died 50 odd years ago from a melanoma - maybe I could line up with them

PS The Last Post is good, but the bugle music I really like is the Retreat - full orchestral version.

PS Found this in case anyone's interested in orgins of the Anzac Dawn Service :-
http://www.anzacday.org.au/education/tff/dawn.html

The ANZAC Day Dawn Service has become an integral part of commemorations on 25 April. However, credit for its origin is divided between the Reverend Arthur Ernest White of Albany, WA and Captain George Harrington of Toowoomba, Queensland.

Reverend White was a padre of the earliest ANZACs to leave Australia with the First AIF in November 1914. The convoy assembled at Albany’s King George Sound in WA and at 4 am on the morning of their departure, he conducted a service for all men. After the war, White gathered some 20 men at dawn on 25 April 1923 on Mt Clarence overlooking King George Sound and silently watched a wreath floating out to sea. He then quietly recited the words ‘As the sun rises and goeth down we will remember them’. All were deeply moved and the news of the ceremony soon spread. White is quoted as saying that ‘Albany was the last sight of land these ANZAC troops saw after leaving Australian shores and some of them never returned. We should hold a service (here) at the first light of dawn each ANZAC Day to commemorate them.’

At 4 am on ANZAC morning 1919 in Toowoomba, Captain Harrington and a group of friends visited all known graves and memorials of men killed in action in World War 1 and placed flowers (not poppies) on the headstones. Afterwards they toasted their mates with a rum. In 1920 and 1921 these men followed a similar pattern but adjourned to Picnic Point at the top of the range and toasted their mates until the first rays of dawn appeared. A bugler sounded the ‘Last Post’ and ‘Reveille’.

There is no standard format for the Dawn Service, but Brisbane’s traditional (since 1931) service is: assembly, bugle calls ‘Long G’ followed by ‘Last Post’ at exactly 4.28 am (the time of the original ANZAC landing), two minutes’ reverent silence, a hymn, short address, placing of floral tributes, a second hymn, bugle call ‘Reveille’ and the singing of ‘God Save the Queen’.

PS As I mentioned before , you want a heated debate over an Anzac beer, throw in that one about Bunyin's poem's actual words " Age shall not weary them nor the years contemn "
i.e. "contemn" makes more sense - the years treat us all with contempt, we age, we grow old

however, "condemn " strictly means to judge , and I don't think that anyone wants to judge the diggers harshly

As I also said somewhere , "only a pedant wowser would even argue about it - and who would wish wowserism on a digger on Anzac Day "

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jefmval4iB0&mode=related&search= Spitfire Ace.The Greatest Day 1 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwYf4_gZH2c&mode=related&search= Spitfire Ace.The Greatest Day 2 of 5

etc - Story of the Battle of Britain, including teaching a modern pilot how to fly a spitfire maybe you need to have a bit of time to spare here - (10 mins each) ..."so much owed by so many to so few" as WC said.

 

[2020hindsight]

oops Binyon
http://www.firstworldwar.com/poetsandprose/binyon.htm
http://www.anzacs.org/fallen.html

Laurence Binyon (1869-1943), the poet and art critic, was born in Lancaster in 1869. He worked at the British Museum before going to war, having studied at Trinity College, Oxford where he won the Newdigate poetry prize. Whilst on the staff of the British Museum he developed an expertise in Chinese and Japanese art.

Aside from his best known poem For The Fallen (1914), most notably the fourth stanza which adorns numerous war memorials, Binyon published work on Botticelli and Blake among others. He returned to the British Museum following the war. His Collected Poems was published in 1931.

FOR THE FALLEN
Laurence Binyon (1869-1943)

With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
England mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres,
There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England's foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.[/quote]