Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

[charles36]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Well done BREAKER1, hello everyone, seems a lot has been done but much more to do.

The idea of taking over Living Leisure is a great idea and we should do all we can to force the issue.

I take it that JH wants to list the fund on the NSX to allow those that want to escape the fund and sell their units. I guess that is for the individuals concerned.

I am greatful to everybody that is taking part in the AG and if I can assist in anyway I will, I reside in the Forster NSW area. I would be pleased to hear from anyone in this area.

Kinds regards to you all,


Charles36

 

[iamspeed]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Is poke to the national manager of the PIF today and he said that in December last year the fund was worth $950 million. This included assets acquired using the loan facility from RBOS (i.e the loan was entered into to acquire assets). In December last year $40 million was paid out in redemptions, therefore according to my calculation this would make the fund worth $910 million. If to date approx $120 million has been paid back to RBOS (through various means including the sale of assets) this would make the fund worth $790 million less the outstanding debt (approx $65 million) therefore worth $725 million.

I know these are broad figures but JH is now stating the fund is worth $690 million therefore where has the balance of $35 million gone.

I'd guess the $35mill has been lost. How you might ask? Examples. Loss on sale of shares in MFS Diversifed Trust now called GEO Property Group. Loss on some of Fixed Interest securities held in the portfolio. Write down in the value of LLA shares held.

I'd be happy to take the curent offer from LLA. I'm concerned and just hope all loans are paid back this well - a large majority chunck now and the small balance in a couple of years. Plus some shares that may add some value down the track. PIF needs to be wound up, not take over LLA. If PIF investors want to own LLA, use their own 1/4 redmeption proceeds to buy LLA shares - don't go mixing things up, that got PIF into trouble in the first place.

My worry is the RBOS loan was used to buy assets (in the form of loans) from the struggling MFS New Zealand Funds. Looking back you can see NZ was struggling before we had issues in Australia. Maybe some loans were sold to PIF to provide $ to prop up struggling NZ Funds (breaker a question for JH next time you speak). If this was the case, lets just hope they were good loans?

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi Premium Income Investors,
I am an investor like most of you and I am very concerned. I have a friend
Jane, who would like to be an active part of the Action Group immediately so could interested parties fax her on 0755337986 asap. There is a public meeting at the GC Convention Centre on 10th July and Jane wants to meet as many people before then and get the Action Group in full discussion well before that date.
Thanks, fax her info on how to reach you & she will get back to you. She lives here on the Gold Coast.
Cheers
Tiger50:

banghead:

I faxed 'Jane' on the above no. on Monday, received no reply and had my fax returned this morning. tiger50 either 'Jane' is non existant or the no. is incorrect. Regards, Seamisty

 

[akernst]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I would like to guess the future of our money in the PIF.

I see there are 2 scenerios:-

1. Liquidate the fund and we all get a percentage in the $1.00 back in a few years.

2. Keep the PIF Fund functioning, via Wellington Capital.


The second scenerio would work, if everyone decides not to take their Redemption
for this year, and be happy with the Monthly Distribution. I think WC could then make
the Fund work again.

I know this is a simplification of the situation, but I think time is a healer.

I think we should let WC have a chance in fixing it.

Looking forward to an AG Meeting, whenever one is organised.

 

[iamspeed]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I'd agree that liquidation isn't the best option but I also think PIF is effective broken and cannot function going forward.

It should be managed as an orderly wind up. As loans are repaid to PIF, in addition to interest payment on loans, this money is accumulated and paid across all unit holders on a quaterly basis.

If WC want to start a Fund, they should start a fresh new Fund of their own. They now have a data base of 11,000 investors they could market to. But PIF should not become the play thing of WC - pay them a management fee to wind up PIF over time (they should still make a profit as they should have paid bugga all to Octaviar for the management rights to damaged goods).

 

[Tuart]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Iamspeed

When you refer to the LLA loan been repaid are you certain PIF are getting full value for the loan.

The original terms proposed as reported in the paper saw a considerable loss to PIF and this is why the proposition of PIF as the major creditor to LLA standing their ground and either getting paid in full or taking the place of Artic should be considered.

You should take the time to look at LLA balance sheet, profit and loss and cashflow statements as at 31/12/2007 before you write off the idea.

As late as 3 months ago you money was going into LLA to support it and its expansion plans so why should PIF be forced to take a loss for the benefit of Artic, NAB and LLA.

Its time transactions started to occur that were a positive to your position not continuing to dig the hole deeper.

In terms of giving WC a chance they may prove themselves to be the best option for the workout but they must:
1) be open, honest and transparent
2) have available significant resources to apply to the workout
3) provide alternatives that allow those wishing to act together the ability to recover all of their funds overtime.

So far we have seen none of these and at the moment the only feedback we have had is that WC got the management rights because they were the only party OCV would trust to do a deal on the $50 million guarantee.

That decision was not in PIF holdewrs best interests it was in OCV best interests. So that is the starting point for WC which is not great as they closed the door on parties with more resources to address the issues.

Now they are hiding behind waiting for a PWC report which is more money been spent which could be coming to you guys. Management know the position but I think they are trying to push revealing it into the new financial year for reasons that will become clearer soon.

 

[Alan.Lowther]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hello All,

I found the forum yesterday and it took me hours to read through from the beginning. I've also been caught in this trap and have a significant investment hanging in the breeze.

I must say I was impressed with the number of active participants and many of the suggestions and ideas. My sincere thanks must go to Breaker1 for instigating this forum and also to people such as Tuart, Rocky, Seamisty, Javier, to name a few, for their insight and views.

I'm based in Sydney but am now in the process of starting a new company as reliance on returns from the PIF are out the window. Accordingly, my time will be limited, but I'm happy to help in any way I can and willing to attend meetings, when and wherever.

Keep up the great work and looking forward to our initial meeting.

Alan

 

[iamspeed]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Tuart

I hope these numbers can paint a better picture, my fault for not providing details from LLA announcements.

PIF is owed around $70mill by LLA as an unsecured creditor, sitting behind NAB. PIF is going to get back $63mill now and $10mill in 2 years, 88mill LLA shares and 88mill LLA 12 month options. That's around $0.90 in the dollar in say August if the Arctic deal goes ahead, with a another say $0.10 to come in 2 years plus the value of the shares/options. As I said, you give me that on all the loans in PIF and it would be called the great escape.

Remember LLA isn't in a position to bargain. They tried unsuccessfully to sell Acquariums to Village and I haven't heard of any other takers. Property in general is on the nose at the moment, so they mustn't have been able to move any of the ski fields or bring in JV partners.

Yes the assest are good - when was the last time someone went to the snow and said gee that was a cheap holiday - you try an book now and you may as well being calling about 2009. Acquariums are nice but local tourism is slowing and maybe people will be spending their admission price on petrol. headwinds are out there for the economy. Issues with overseas acquariums and developments were proposed which means more debt.

I guess the issue at the momment is debt and valautions in balance sheet. LLA would have paid top price for all the assets and if they had to sell some (i.e. NAB wants their $ back) it would be a fire sale, with NAB first in line for the spoils. PIF gets a huge chunk of the $ now!!

As I said, I hope all the loans in PIF work at this well because I am sure some won't. I don't like seeing Packer make more money but this looks like a good deal for PIF and if people want to join the Packer gravy train they could use their own money to buy LLA shares.

The focus should be on the other 90% of loans in PIF we know very little about. Look at the PIF February update on Octaviar website - what the hell is in the Octaviar Maximum Yield Fund No 1 which PIF has $85mill in - my guess crap loans bought from MFS NZ Funds with money frrom RBOS??

 

[Tuart]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

iamspeed

They were proposed to sell $63 million of their debt but it has never been announced exactly how much cash they are getting.

Some newspaper reports had it as low as $30 million.

That is $30 million cash plus $10 million interest free two year note plus 88 million shares at 7.5 cents. If that was correct it is a 24 million loss.

This is why WC needs to come clean but I am sure nothing will be announced until deal is done.

LLA have announced they have a new banker ready to put in $75 million facility plus $10 million working capital.

So $50 million from the $90 million rights issue will reduce primary debt. Who is getting the other $40 million.

The point I was trying to make is that given cashflows of LLA why does PIF need to take a loss if the numbers as reported are correct when it could take say half of the position Artic is taking and become the vulture fund not be fleeced by a vulture fund.

Look at the firesale of the GEO securities. NTA over 80 cents and you got 25 cents. What did PIF pay and what is the loss.

The danger is that RBOS are forcing the sale of the quality assets and there will be all the cr-- left for you guys.

RBOS need to be brought to account and this can only be done in a tranparent open forum not behind closed doors

 

[iamspeed]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Look at the firesale of the GEO securities. NTA over 80 cents and you got 25 cents. What did PIF pay and what is the loss.

I'd estimate they paid above $1? They were sold to Trojan - did I read Chris Scott or WC had some sort of history with Trojan?

Yes, they could have got more on market versus the sale to Trojan. I'd say a RBOS easy target to get some $ back.

PIF did negotiate (via WC) to recieve 40% of any profit when onsold . there is specualtion of some taking over GOE but what is specualtion worth to PIF investors and what might the ultimate price be. Not many listed investments trading above NTA these days.

 

[iamspeed]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

iamspeed

They were proposed to sell $63 million of their debt but it has never been announced exactly how much cash they are getting.

Some newspaper reports had it as low as $30 million.

That is $30 million cash plus $10 million interest free two year note plus 88 million shares at 7.5 cents. If that was correct it is a 24 million loss.

Surely WC haven't dropped PIF investors pants by that much. I thought that was probably one of safeest unsecured loans they would have in the portfolio? heaven help the rest. Even if LLA was liquidated I was confident of full return but wouldn't want liquidation for suffering LLA holders (surely some hope for them is worth doing a workable deal).

If this is WC first big deal they need it to set a positive tone not have it be the beginning of the end?????

 

[flatback]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Dexter your talk of bringing in an administrator or liquidator send shivers down my spine.

Please have faith in the ability of this group to form a compenent committee to represent your interests and for the numbers in this group to snowball and deliver you real power in your own future.

Adminstrators and liquidators have incredible cost bases and these groups only know how to sell sell sell. They are not in the business of sourcing new funds to assist in fixing problems.

We are all travelling blind here but what if you (PIF) have a loan to a development that needed more money to finish it. An administrator is not in the business of being lateral and finding commercial ways of completing the project and ensuring you get a full return.

Either the existing RE can bring lateral solutions to the workout to make sure you get all of your money back or collectively investors should get a group who can. This is not a role an administrator can do for you.

I know I sound like a broken record but you need a structure and an empowered committee.

How cool is it that you are over 100 people. Now lets get a structure to your group and push for full disclosure.

Yes Tuart i believe what you say is quite correct ,i know as an investor that we have been kept in the dark for (it seems an eternity) for approximately 6months and IT IS worrying, the position this fund is in, we as a group must remain focused on the best possible result for all fund members,sensible outcomes must be strived for, and personaly liquidation should be furtherest from our minds.

 

[Tuart]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Iamspeed

The final deal done by WC in relation to LLA is yet to be announced but the figures quoted came from the press.

Losses are only crystalised when sales are made. GEO and LLA have real businesses and will generate returns. Why take a loss when you can generate returns that can pay out bank and then start to flow distributions back to investors.

As much as investors want their money (capital) back the primary aim must be to start generating income and flowing that out to PIF investors.

We are yet to here what damage was done to get RBOS down from $180 million to its current levels but for investors sake the losses need to stop.

 

[Claire Doherty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hello,

My name is Claire Doherty, I am the Policy and Research Manager at the Australian Shareholders' Association. We are a not-for-profit organisation that represents the interests of retail shareholders.

We are taking an active interest in the Octaviar Premium Income Fund, particularly given the stated intention of the Wellington Capital to consider listing the fund on the National Stock Exchange.

I am unable to find either the PDS or the consitution for the scheme. I wondered whether any of the Action Group members might be able to send me these documents? My email address is clairedoherty@asa.asn.au.

Kind Regards,

Claire Doherty
Policy and Research Manager

Australian Shareholders' Association
Phone 1300 368 448
Fax 02 9411 6663
Email clairedoherty@asa.asn.au
Web www.asa.asn.au

 

[Claire Doherty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I now have a copy of the PDS. Thanks to the forum member who sent it to me. Still searching for the constitution.

Unitholders are entitled to request the constitution from the responsible entity. If the organisers of the Action Group don't already have this document, it would be a good idea to obtain it.

Kind Regards,


Claire Doherty
Policy and Research Manager

Australian Shareholders' Association
Phone 1300 368 448
Fax 02 9411 6663
Email clairedoherty@asa.asn.au
Web www.asa.asn.au

 

[marcom]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Sorry been away trying to get some work to put food on the table.

Just went on the NSX website - -http://www.nsxa.com.au and found something very interesting. Wellington Capital Limited is one of the 32 Advisors registered by the NSX Australia wide to assist companies to list on the NSX - joined 2007. These advisors pay an application fee $2,500 and a annual fee $1,000. Issuers (companies that list) are required under the NSX Rules to obtain the services of the nominated advisor at all times while the listing is current. No wonder the PIF is headed to NSX - and yes another convenient source of fees for WC!!

But, guess who is also one of the registered advisors - McCullough Robertson Lawyers Brisbane- her husband's law firm and the practice where she was a partner for many years.

Talk about keeping it in the family!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the AG want to use the logo we designed it is attached in a word file in 2 sizes - just cut and paste or resize the logos.

 

[Claire Doherty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

A member of the forum has contacted Wellington Capital who are going to send her a copy of the Constitution for the scheme, which she is going to pass on to me. Thanks very much to everyone who has helped us out. Good luck with your action group, I shall be keeping a keen eye on your progress.

Regards

Claire Doherty
Policy and Research Manager

Australian Shareholders' Association
Phone 1300 368 448
Fax 02 9411 6663
Email clairedoherty@asa.asn.au
Web www.asa.asn.au

 

[zixo]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi all

If we think that JH took on the RE of the PIF from the goodness of her heart, we will be mistaken. I’m waiting to see what the fees are going to be.

In My opinion calling in liquidators is a very bad option when we consider that the fund was successful up until the MFS shares went south and we suddenly incurred unheard of debt and questionable loans.

From what we’ve read and heard of JH she will have lots at stake. Namely her and Wellington Capitals reputation.

My concern is the sale of PIF’s stake in Geo and her association with CS who’s only interest is Octaviars survival. I’m interested on how she is going explain the sale, debt and loans.

At this moment my thinking is, if anyone can turn the PIF around I think JH would be someone good to be working on our side. Time will tell.

 

[Javier]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

WC is NOT the RE..a solicitor did some searches on our behalf and it seems that Octaviar Investment Management Limited is still the RE, but has just undergone a name change to Wellington Capital Investment Management..the RE licence is still Octaviar. She has merely purchased the management rights, this is just a way to try and keep WC as her being "accepted" by OCV means that the little clause in the PDS about a change in RE absolves OCV of the $50m Callable Facility, if we replace her then it's gone with another RE. All very smart BUT if she can't deliver on the $50m..or at least a good chunk of it..she is no different to any other RE that may present itself to us. JH better do a good deal for PIF and not a deal for OCV and Chris Scott. The solicitor also advises that there have been a zillion constitutional changes, which are only allowed without the consent of investors ONLY on the proviso these changes do not adversely affect investors. With all these losses, if there has been a constutional change that has adversely affected us, then there is cause for ASIC to investigate. Gee you know I wonder if JH really knows how much of a headache this is going to be for her AND to her rep?

She also advise us to request a list of all investors and a copy of the fund's constitution. I am hopefully meeting with her soon to advise me of other requirements and costs to move forward..will advise.

 

[iamspeed]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

My concern is the sale of PIF’s stake in Geo and her association with CS who’s only interest is Octaviars survival. I’m interested on how she is going explain the sale, debt and loans.

At this moment my thinking is, if anyone can turn the PIF around I think JH would be someone good to be working on our side. Time will tell.

Not sure if it has been mentioned on this (ever growing) thread before? Trojan (buyer of PIFs holding in GEO) chairman is Andrew Kemp and he was on the board of S8 (Chris Scott's business taken over by MFS). JH was also on the board of S8 or at the minimum an adviser to Chris. I saw a report saying that Chris used to be a part owner of WC??

JH is yet to show any capabilities at all. Was RBOS ever going to call in receivers when they were owed $180mill out of approx $900mill of assets?? Would have delayed them getting their money back and have been bad press (look at ANZ with Opes). I could have told hem wait 6 months and we'll give you your money baqck + probably some penalty interest as well. Although we are having a creidt crisis, banks still need to lend, if they don't they go out of business.

JH has been gifted a one in a life time opportunity to double the size of her business in 1 transation. If Chris Scott buys back into WC or buys units in PIF on the NSX (if we get there), that would be the last straw.